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It reads a little strange to me that by the time the PCs get to both Varnhold and Fort Drelev, both "kingdoms" only consist of 1 hex. Has anyone put some effort into expanding these nations? Drelev in particular seems like it should be more of a threat than a lone town waiting to get crushed by its much larger neighbor.
I'm making Varnhold Pass a second settlement (2 watchtowers) because that's the only way to make it look like a defended pass. And several of the surrounding hexes will be farms or quarries (which are a thing in my game). However, they've obviously been abandoned by the time the PCs arrive.
Fort Drelev is more tricky, because it really is almost totally surrounded by hexes that are either too hostile or already claimed by someone. I could see a couple of the adjoining hexes around the lake becoming farms, but don't overdo it as the whole point should be that attacking the PCs' kingdom is Drelev's only remaining option for expanding.
Seconded on Drelev's attack being motivated partially by a need for usable, worthwhile hexes to expand into.
Varnhold I wrote off that a lot of their land was ill-suited for farming but they had managed a ranching industry of hardy horses and various kinds of cattle and livestock that could live off the mountain scrub and such. They ended up entering a treaty to trade with the PCs' kingdom, meats and mounts for farm produce as well as honey and mead (my group built TONS of apiaries, and just recently entered an alliance with a Thriae hive via the New Subjects event). That said their claims are expanded a bit west of Varnhold; east they can't expand too much due to the tribal conflict.
I gave Varnhold about 4-5 hexes and about 6 buildings when the PCs recovered it. Varnhold had an uneasy tension with the Centaurs, which the PCs managed to resolve.
Fort Drelev, I gave about 9-12 hexes and 2 small settlements, one of which was essentially repossessed by Pitax (who lent Drelev money as the country became mired in a guerrilla war with Boggards who kept seizing their trade goods, and barbarians who raided their supplies from Brevoy).
Drelev's territory was terrible, however, it was all swamp, so no farms could be placed there and the territory was actually failing command DCs almost constantly. Drelev's entire kingdom was a basketcase.
When the PCs annexed both dukedoms, they had some issues with stability rolls, but they eventually sorted out the command DC.
As an aside: Varn, Drelev, and Irovetti are all still alive. :)
Varn I left alive; one PC wanted to have a romance with him...so Varn's wife died in the Calling, and V kept Varn prisoner in a bottle. He was a broken man when released, but as a governor/Duke of Varnhold Province, he's a fairly decent servant of the PCs interests.
Drelev got out because, well, he was mostly just a fool who mortgaged his kingdom to Pitax. He is now sulking back in Brevoy. His wife, who is likely in the process of divorcing him, is likewise returned.
Irovetti, when confronted, lied his head off to the PCs and spouted off some nonsense about generals rebelling against him and Villamor Koth acting without his authority...and the PCs believed him. Thankfully, he's now on their side since he realizes Nyrissa would probably prefer him dead. The PCs left him his "toys", who are now allies in defense of their lands against the Fey.
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For Varnhold I used the Marvel method, some of the surrounding area is farmland, but his kingdom's growth was stunted by a long war with the Centaurs. Varn was a good man with some serious colonialism issues. It's what causes the PCs to need to try extra hard to earn the Centaur's trust.
For Drelev I did expand his holdings somewhat, I added a village of swamp people (cue creepy banjo music), and a small village called Windsong Ranch to the south (it's for the Ranch the PCs will try and tame Windsong's herd). Otherwise I threw in some farmlands (just enough to feed his small barony).
For Pitax I expanded quite a bit, his map has a lot of pastoral farmlands and his towns have factories bristling with smokestacks for his "Grand Designs". I'm still collating the notes on that before I release them (I am tentatively hoping before the end of the month).
Oh, the other thing I should mention is that if you make Varnhold look too successful before the Vanishing, your players will consider rushing East at the first opportunity to claim some hexes before Varn gets them. Which is annoying in the middle of Book 2 when you don't have any of Book 3's encounters handy.
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I solved that by clearly stating where their charter ended to the east and west, and having their advisor inform them that spreading outside those borders would be infringing on the realms of the other colonies.
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Whereas I wanted them to feel independent from Brevoy as soon as possible, so made it clear that border negotiations were the colonies' own responsibility. Which of course encouraged them to be more proactive about trying to gain the advantage, so I should have been ready for it.
My players could not go farther to the west beyond Varnhold because the centaurs had their ancestral lands there... of course, a less scrupulous group might just massacre all the centaurs, but no Good kingdom, and only a few Neutral kingdoms could get away with that while keeping their alignment...when the centaurs were not actively raiding. So, depending on how aggressive you want the Centaur/Brevic land issues to be, you could skew it so that the PCs would have serious alignment issues if they attempt to seize the Centaur lands, or your could play it up that the Centaurs "need" to be displaced so that civilization can spread.
In my campaign Varnold had claimed the hexes along the road leading North - right the way up to the bridge leading into Brevoy. There were a couple of farms along there. They had also claimed a few useless mountain hexes - but stopped at the mountains, because I ruled that Varn's Charter finished there. The constant skirmishes and small battles with the centaurs had stopped him expanding westwards.
As for Drelev - he has had barbarians and Boggards to deal with, and whatever money he has goes on making his castle safe. His business model was to build a city that made money off of trade along the Slough - but because he never cleared the slough he never had any money. No new settlers want to go there, and help him expand, because it looks like a dead-end town.
Seconded on Drelev's attack being motivated partially by a need for usable, worthwhile hexes to expand into.
Is the assumption that Pitax has seized all of the plain/hill hexes that surround Drelev on the western side? Or that the barbarians have kept those hexes from being developed?
But even then, I would assume Drelev has cleared enough territory to the east to create a route between his hex and the PC's lands. Otherwise his armies are passing through wild, dangerous areas to get to Tatzlford, and even if they take a town, they can't annex it.
Seconded on Drelev's attack being motivated partially by a need for usable, worthwhile hexes to expand into.Is the assumption that Pitax has seized all of the plain/hill hexes that surround Drelev on the western side? Or that the barbarians have kept those hexes from being developed?
I think it's a little of both.
But even then, I would assume Drelev has cleared enough territory to the east to create a route between his hex and the PC's lands. Otherwise his armies are passing through wild, dangerous areas to get to Tatzlford, and even if they take a town, they can't annex it.
I imagine on the east side they've seized every usable hex they can, yes.
Kingmaker used the word "kingdom" rather liberally, as if were a synonym for the word domain. Even small domains of 20 hexes or less ruled by barons were referred to as "kingdoms", when they probably should have been referred to as baronies instead. Varnhold and Drelev, both small domains of under 20 hexes were ruled by barons, and thus would have been more accurately considered baronies.
Varnhold was a barony of 19 hexes. It consisted of Varnhold plus all territory within 2 hexes, including both the road along the Kiravoy bridge, and a "a fair amount of farmland", of which the bridge hex is part.
As for the Nomen centaurs, my group through some amazing role-playing managed to convince their matriarch (after saving her daughter and retrieving the stolen magical bow) that they should join the "kingdom" as full partners. Their matriarch became Governor of the Dunsward with full authority over land rights and construction projects in that area, ie. humans and others can't couldn't claim land or build there without her explicit permission, allowing the centaurs to preserve their nomadic way of life. The PC's were also bound to come to the aid of the centaurs against outside threats as part of a mutual defense pact. Humans were however allowed to travel through the Dunsward and centaurs through the rest of the "Kingdom". In fact, some of the less militant centaurs were hired to act as official mail carriers and messengers between settlements in the other parts of the kingdom fostering friendship and goodwill as well as providing a useful service.
The size and boundaries of Drelev's barony are never really mentioned. Even the travel route between Brevoy and its colony is open to question. Yet I agree that Drelev doesn't seem very viable as is. The people are starving and the population is steadily decreasing when the PC's arrive. There's also that big swamp between Drelev and Tatzlford that reaches beyond the bottom edge of the map. How Baron Drelev could annex Tatzlford without a long chain of hexes around that swamp being in his control is a rather interesting question, and one that appears to exhibit a weakness in the game rules if one looks too closely. In the real world you don't really need to control the land between two settlements to control both settlements. It helps a lot with regard to keeping the realm stable, but it isn't strictly necessary as long as you can travel between them somewhat reliably if you have enough troops.
The size and boundaries of Drelev's barony are never really mentioned.
I think this is somewhat intentional, to allow the GM to define those borders as they see fit.
Kingmaker used the word "kingdom" rather liberally, as if were a synonym for the word domain.
This likewise I think is intentional, for a few different reasons.
Firstly, not everyone will use the default titles and such provided in the book - for example, Varn and Drelev are both Dukes in my game, and my PC ruler was a Duchess who just recently got promoted to Viscountess and will eventually top out as a Countess. Varn would have been promoted to Viscount if he'd ever managed to deal with the tribal trouble and get Varnhold expanding some; Drelev was pretty much a lost cause.
Secondly, it also saved the writers the trouble of having to look up the precise terminology every time they were referring to this or that colony.
Lastly, there's also the fact that you're dealing with a region in Golarion that is full of tiny little independent fiefdoms referred to collectively as "The River Kingdoms", so in that sense the colony/ies - once independent - are technically Kingdoms, and referred to as such in-canon.
The size and boundaries of Drelev's barony are never really mentioned.I think this is somewhat intentional, to allow the GM to define those borders as they see fit.
It's not clear to me what's gained by treating Drelev this way, aside from more work for the GM. Laying out the domain would have at least forced the designers to consider the question of how Drelev ended up bordering Tatzlford, no easy feat given both the geography and the rules, instead of punting it for GM's to scratch their heads over.
Kingmaker used the word "kingdom" rather liberally, as if were a synonym for the word domain.This likewise I think is intentional, for a few different reasons.
Firstly, not everyone will use the default titles and such provided in the book - for example, Varn and Drelev are both Dukes in my game, and my PC ruler was a Duchess who just recently got promoted to Viscountess and will eventually top out as a Countess. Varn would have been promoted to Viscount if he'd ever managed to deal with the tribal trouble and get Varnhold expanding some; Drelev was pretty much a lost cause.
So why bother to make distinctions between Barons, Dukes and Kings based on the size of their realms? They're pushing the very default titles you're arguing that they're trying to avoid.
Secondly, it also saved the writers the trouble of having to look up the precise terminology every time they were referring to this or that colony.
It's pretty easy actually:
Baron --> Barony
Duke --> Duchy
King --> Kingdom
I didn't have to look up anything. And any author who knows what a Baron, Duke and King are, should know what a Barony, Duchy and Kingdom are. This isn't rocket science.
Lastly, there's also the fact that you're dealing with a region in Golarion that is full of tiny little independent fiefdoms referred to collectively as "The River Kingdoms", so in that sense the colony/ies - once independent - are technically Kingdoms, and referred to as such in-canon.
If that's the case, then just tell the players they can call themselves whatever they want. Don't force the titles of "Baron", "Duke", and "King" on them, just say their "kingdom" is small, medium, or large. Pretty simple actually.
So why bother to make distinctions between Barons, Dukes and Kings based on the size of their realms?
*shrug* Dunno and personally don't really care. They wanted to come up with a default name for those who didn't want to bother coming up with their own titles would be my guess.
It's pretty easy actually:
Baron --> Barony
Duke --> Duchy
King --> KingdomI didn't have to look up anything. And any author who knows what a Baron, Duke and King are, should know what a Barony, Duchy and Kingdom are. This isn't rocket science.
You miss my point. Having seen the writer document that Jason Nelson turned in - he released it back a while ago, since a lot of people were asking for the expanded Rushlight Tournament stuff he'd written up that got cut from the final version of War of the River Kings - there were a lot of placeholder blanks and such when referring to the other colonies/territories/whatever. I imagine the other such documents were similar. So without having to go to another author working on a separate chapter (often at the same time) and ask "Is Drelev/Varnhold/whatever a duchy or a barony or a countship or whatever" they just put in "kingdom" and leave it at that.
Then just tell the players they can call themselves whatever they want
They did that. Note that Baron, Duke, and King are suggested default titles - again for GMs/players who don't want to bother coming up with their own titles, or go looking up an appropriate historical name. It actually says in the book, and in Ultimate Campaign, that the players or GM might come up with other titles and should be allowed to use them, especially once they're no longer beholden to Restov. UC even goes as far as to say "here's some more suggestions if you still cant find one you like" and provides another chart with more titles.
Frankly it's not a big deal and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. And really has almost nothing to do with the current discussion.
Frankly it's not a big deal and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. And really has almost nothing to do with the current discussion.
I was thinking the same thing. It's not.
Coolness =) All's well then.
My players could not go farther to the west beyond Varnhold because the centaurs had their ancestral lands there... of course, a less scrupulous group might just massacre all the centaurs, but no Good kingdom, and only a few Neutral kingdoms could get away with that while keeping their alignment...when the centaurs were not actively raiding. So, depending on how aggressive you want the Centaur/Brevic land issues to be, you could skew it so that the PCs would have serious alignment issues if they attempt to seize the Centaur lands, or your could play it up that the Centaurs "need" to be displaced so that civilization can spread.
Hmm, maybe test the centaurs with insults and feigned weaknesses, see what they do, and thus encouraging them to attack and fall for a trap?
It isn't evil if they attack you first!
As far as how Drelev's forces even get to Tatzlford, I thankfully don't have to deal with that issue because I have a better target. My players developed one of the grassland hexes on the edge of the forest (just downslope from the hot springs, so I gave the town a resource bonus), and Drelev can reach that by going around the top of the lake.
The boggards North of the lake may bother travellers, but they're not going to take on a small army of humans and trolls (or possibly humans and hill giants by the time I've tweaked it to actually challenge my players) so the forces from Drelev can walk straight into that nice little area of grassland without even going through the woods.
It isn't evil if they attack you first!
Indeed. :P