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Ok. Here a player accidentally took a spell he wasn't allowed to take. He used it for many game sessions he played. When the mistake was discovered, he changed it out to a legal spell. How much gold should he pay for using an illegal 1st-level spell for six game sessions?
Did he trade it out using a class ability that lets him change out spells (as is the case for a Bard or Sorcerer) or was it a spell in a spellbook? If the former, then no gold need be spent. If the latter, no gold should be refunded. If neither, I'd say to pay the gold and prestige cost for the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign. Otherwise, they simply have an illegal element that they cannot use until they are able to have it removed.
Edit: Look, folks, this is a game. I'm not coming to your house and taking money out of your pocket. Just pay the Stupid Tax and be more careful next time.
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Is it worth alienating players on something as silly as this? She realized her mistake, and is making a good faith effort to correct it.
People seem to be of the opinion that modeling your character after examples provided by Paizo's authors in new books is a clear mistake. It thus is deserving of a "Stupid Tax."
As a result, my sense from reading this thread and others is that most people on the paizo boards would respond "yes" to your question.
Happily, most PFS people aren't on these boards.
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Andy, the player did not buy the item and then decide she did not want it. If that were the mistake made, I'm sure everyone here would agree with your position.
The player realized that she misunderstood a pricing guideline, in the same way that many other people have misunderstood the very same rule (which is why a FAQ was issued---the F stands for "frequently").
Is it worth alienating players on something as silly as this? She realized her mistake, and is making a good faith effort to correct it. If she is allowed to sell back the item(s) at full price, she hasn't gained anything. She simply has the money that she would have had all along.
Again, I would love to be able to tell players that they can do what you seem to advocate: return the item for what you paid if you do not want it at the real price. Just show me where I have the permission to do that as a PFS GM.
When I find mistakes while auditing charater records, I always assume it was made in good faith. I do not relish the idea of ticking somebody off because they made an error. In this case a frequently made error (I used an F in "frequently". See how I did that too ;-)).
As a GM, I know of nothing I can do with the options available besides what I've written. And in over 50 posts on this thread, nobody else does either in that they have not shown me how in the spirit or letter of the rules that I can overlook it.
Andy
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Is it worth alienating players on something as silly as this? She realized her mistake, and is making a good faith effort to correct it.People seem to be of the opinion that modeling your character after examples provided by Paizo's authors in new books is a clear mistake. It thus is deserving of a "Stupid Tax."
As a result, my sense from reading this thread and others is that most people on the paizo boards would respond "yes" to your question.
Happily, most PFS people aren't on these boards.
An honest mistake is an honest mistake. And I don't use words like "Stupid Tax".
But I won't sign off on your sheet if I know its wrong.
Andy
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I'll give them permission, i'll sign the sheet, and I'll take any flak that comes my way.
The rules are to create a fair and fun experience, alienating players because of an unclear rule isn't in the interest of the campaign.
The rules aren't there to get in the way of playing the game. The rules are there to facilitate a fun experience for everyone. Mistakes are made, try and fix them, move on with your life.
I spend a lot of time on these forums, I also own a store and organize 2-3 tables of pathfinder every week. I have had a couple people come and talk to me worried about making mistakes, PFS isn't supposed to scare people away from playing pathfinder, but the responses we see on the forums are the hardline. Sometimes we have to accept that we overdo it a bit.
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As I see it, I don't think I have any other options as a GM.
Andy... it doesn't look like you GM much PFS, so I'm not sure this is entirely relevant. Most PFS GM's I've seen have a good understanding that mistakes will happen, to the best of us. Ripping hard-earned gold from a player is about the surest way to lose them as a player.
In this case, it really wasn't even a mistake - no one knew for sure how the pricing should be done.
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I'll give them permission, i'll sign the sheet, and I'll take any flak that comes my way.
The rules are to create a fair and fun experience, alienating players because of an unclear rule isn't in the interest of the campaign.
The rules aren't there to get in the way of playing the game. The rules are there to facilitate a fun experience for everyone. Mistakes are made, try and fix them, move on with your life.
I spend a lot of time on these forums, I also own a store and organize 2-3 tables of pathfinder every week. I have had a couple people come and talk to me worried about making mistakes, PFS isn't supposed to scare people away from playing pathfinder, but the responses we see on the forums are the hardline. Sometimes we have to accept that we overdo it a bit.
I don't think anyone will give you any flak. Either way.
But I beg to differ on why we have the record sheets for purchases over 25 gp. And, why we're asked to go over them as part of the start of the scenario. As GM's, one way we ensure that everyone has a fair and fun experience is to: (a) be a jerk and force them to fix honest mistakes (b) make sure everyone is on a level playing field by correcting errors the players might make. I choose "b". And I warrant, so do you, Benrislove.
It's fairly obvious from the posts on the thread that my position is seen as "hardline" by some if not most. I agree.
This situation could be extrapolated out in a hundered different directions as to where any one of us draws that "hard line". Somebody suggested letting a young player use an illegal class as an example. Another person used an example of an unusable spell. I gave examples with buying the wrong equipment. To everyone, those examples and how they are ruled on will be seen as lenient or harsh. We're all different.
What we have in common are the guidelines in the Guide to Organized Play. My previous stated position is how I interpret those rules. I feel the answer is fairly straightforward. I would not gloat over or demean the player who made this mistake but I can't sign off on the sheet if it's not right. That would not be honest and I think that matters. They can appeal it to the local venture officers and I'd stand by their ruling.
Andy
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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As far as I know, there isn't any "official" stance on what to do with mistakes. There's no policy outlined in the Guide to Organized Play, so beyond "take it to your local Venture-Officer", I don't think there is any particular official way of correcting stuff like this.
In general, making things difficult for people who made mistakes is not a good strategy. It scares away players and encourages them *not* to own up to their mistakes.
In this particular case, I'd say there's even less incentive to penalize the player, given that no rule was broken except if we're revising history.
Given that, I'd say be generous, have fun, and keep playing. That's the most important thing, after all!
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As I see it, I don't think I have any other options as a GM.Andy... it doesn't look like you GM much PFS, so I'm not sure this is entirely relevant. Most PFS GM's I've seen have a good understanding that mistakes will happen, to the best of us. Ripping hard-earned gold from a player is about the surest way to lose them as a player.
In this case, it really wasn't even a mistake - no one knew for sure how the pricing should be done.
I said in my first post on the thread that I don't have any GM stars but why would my perspective not be relevant. You're mistaking a lack of stars with a lack of experience. I realize that mistakes happen I explain what is supposed to have happened and I've not had many complaints from my players. And I've been gaming for 30+ years, GM'ing most of it just so you know (I don't see why that matters).
I've played in organized games enough to have seen that different people judge things differently than I would. I don't mind that. As with any judgement, I reserve the right to be wrong. If you take a positive attitude, you'll never lose an argument. If you convince the other person, you are helping them to a better outlook. If they convince you, you now have a better outlook. Or both could have a better outlook in the end. Or you can take a negative approach and be ticked off all of the time.
You might take this opportunity to tell me or show me that in PFS, we do it this way...
Right now, I see limited options for the OP. Not trying to be a butt-head and ruin the fun. I'm following the rules as I see them. And I could be wrong.
Andy
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You might take this opportunity to tell me or show me that in PFS, we do it this way...
Right now, I see limited options for the OP. Not trying to be a butt-head and ruin the fun. I'm following the rules as I see them. And I could be wrong.
I see. You're right - you see limited options, when most people since the OP have been presenting options. Here's why:
PFS is the most important thing in PFS. That's the Players and the GMs. They've removed it for various reasons, but the #1 rule early on was "Play, Play Play!" - do everything you can to get people into a game, even if you have to bend some rules (paraphrasing). That is the way we do it in PFS.
Mistakes are made. Correct them when possible, advise for the future, and don't worry about the past.
I appreciate your open-mindedness.
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You might take this opportunity to tell me or show me that in PFS, we do it this way...
Right now, I see limited options for the OP. Not trying to be a butt-head and ruin the fun. I'm following the rules as I see them. And I could be wrong.
I see. You're right - you see limited options, when most people since the OP have been presenting options. Here's why:
PFS is the most important thing in PFS. That's the Players and the GMs. They've removed it for various reasons, but the #1 rule early on was "Play, Play Play!" - do everything you can to get people into a game, even if you have to bend some rules (paraphrasing). That is the way we do it in PFS.
Mistakes are made. Correct them when possible, advise for the future, and don't worry about the past.
Two things here:
First, the options that people have suggested are for the most part things I agree with. Unfortunately, I think they contradict the letter of the rules. When I say rules, I mean that you pay full price for items and sell them for half-price. This case has obvious extenuating circumstances.
Second, I go out of my way to bring people and keep people in the game. I'm fully aware that how I see the remedies for this mistake could be unpalatable to the player in question. I'd love for that not to be so.
Your last statement is a great sentiment and I'd like to support it. I do have an honest question though. Why do we audit sheets? Is it only to tell players "you made a mistake here, you should do it this way next time." Or do we correct the mistake. And where do you draw the line at player acceptance?
What I intend to do here is talk to my Venture-Lieutenant. I'll abide by his judgement and ride it out.
Andy
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I don't think you would be selling a purchased item at all. If it was an illegal purchase, it simply never existed. I may have thought I had a mithral katana (and so did the monsters I fought with it), but apparently I didn't, since such an item does not exist in Golarion for the price I paid.
I see this much the same way that I would a lvl 2 human barbarian who was a lvl 1 elf wizard only days before. I may have thought that was a spellcaster fighting next to me, but through the magic of ret-conning, it was a barbarian the whole time (in the game world).
I'm not a gm or anything, but that's the way I see it since there really aren't rules in place for correcting honest mistakes.
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I'm not advocating that the player is allowed to continue using the item, or spell, or archetype, or item from a source they don't own or that isn't in the additional resources. I'm not advocating that players who purchased staves from the APG after the grandfather date shouldn't have to fix them in some way.
I use my ITS, I look at them as a GM, I have audited and fixed many errors. I did what I thought was most fair.
Ex: Gunslinger wasn't tracking ammunition properly.
We estimated the number of encounters per scenario, and the number of rounds (5 each, being conservative) then assumed he was using maximum bullets in all those scenarios. We worked together and found a gold cost that we thought was fair, and adjusted it, he paid it, I signed it.
One of my player's was using a staff of stealth from APG. I said "that's expensive, how do you have it already?" He showed me the APG, I informed him that was half it's legal gold cost. He didn't have the gold or fame to buy it when he did, so I had him sell it back at full price. I think he had used it in one scenario, how do I charge him the opportunity cost of using an illegal item for one scenario? I don't, I fix it as best I can.
I made a player drop master from his summoner, luckily he was level 1, so it didn't really change much.
I'm certainly not saying "let em play with an item that isn't legal" Please don't allow players to cheat. I'm saying fix it in the most reasonable way.
Forcing someone to pay more gold for an item than they were willing to just punishes them for making a mistake (or in this case, using one of 2 perfectly reasonable assumptions)
Doesn't seem like an action that has the societies best interests at heart.
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My opinions:
Mike has said that we should use Common Sense, when appropriate.
IMO, for thisa situation, Common Sense says to correct the mistake(s) made, the simplest way possible.
There are two ways to correct the mistake:
1) Pay the difference. Easy, simple, only issue is if you want to "retcon" it so the extra money was paid at the time of purchase, as it should have been, and the PC didn't have that kind of money available. In that case, I would go to simple option 2.
2) Sell the item back. Gain back all the money originally spent on it, it was an honest mistake, and, overall, for mithral as a weapon material, whether the weapon was mithral or steel will have made little difference. You have bigger bobbles involved for legal but major rebuilds, like all the former Synthesist Summoners and Undead Lord Clerics.
Most important thing, IMO, is to work with the player to resolve the issue to both their satisfaction and making their character PFS legal ASAP. Don't penalize the player for an honest mistake.
And it looks like I am soon going to have another PC that is going to get hit with some rules changes that make his build seriously different than I thought it was. There is a big thread going on, where the level 6 power for the archetype (Sound Striker Bard) he has is being discussed, with the PDT, and a new version will, eventually, result. That new version is going to be different than the version that exists now, even with the ETV that infects it now. Oy.