Are there any specific examples of Good things they do?
I believe some of these examples have been posted in the thread already, but here are some quotes of Good things various Hellknight Orders have as part of their code.
(Also, I'd like to point out that one or two Orders being more-or-less entirely Evil doesn't mean all of the Hellknight Orders are Evil).
a) "By the same token, masters, slave owners, ship captains, and merchants who would seek to exploit or waste the lives of their charges or others also risk inciting the scrutiny of these grim wardens." - AP #27, page 61, on "Order of the Chain"
b) "members of the faction quest far from Citadel Dinyar seeking to set the world right by accomplishing feats of noteworthy rectitude, such as the ordering of cities fallen to anarchy or the overthrowing of decadent tyrants." - AP #27, page 62, on "Order of the Godclaw"
c) "The Order of the Scourge deftly seeks out lawlessness in its own most organized form, combating those who would prey upon society’s vulnerabilities, whether they be structured criminal ventures, cults, or flagrantly corrupt governmental groups or officials." - AP #27, page 64, on "Order of the Scourge"
[Edit: This post was written in response to a post requesting information on the Order of the Nail, particularly in regards to why it wasn't described as horribly in the wiki as it has been described earlier in this thread. That post was apparently deleted before I finished writing mine.]
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The Order of the Nail's leader is LE, in the form of Lictor Severs "Boneclaw" DiViri.
The writeup of the Order of the Nail in AP #27 gave a strong impression of the Order being mostly about guarding the borders of civilization from savage races (giving examples of, for instance "bloodthirsty orcs and hordes of other brutal humanoids"). Granted, it also guards against "tribal and unconventional human cultures" (the latter bordering an LE philoshophy).
The article also went on to say that the Order accepted that some such peoples or individuals might be redeemed (which is normally an idea based in Good philosophies).
Admittedly, it then mentioned that any culture that refused to abandon their "primitive ways" would be forced from their lands or slaughtered in the event of resistance.
By that description of the Order, it wouldn't seem overly far-fetched for a few members to be LG (those focusing mostly on attempts to redeem), and many being LN (those focusing mostly on guarding against orcs, etc).
Based on this thread, I understand that there's more information on this particular Order in the "Castles of Golarion" book, which appears to place it firmly in the "LE camp". Likely the wiki article doesn't have that information incorporated yet.
Castles of Golarion confirmed where the Order of the Nail stands in the LG-LE spectrum, but there are some other orders that are more gray than black, as mentioned upthread.
If one wants to draw comparisons with Nazis, it's the Order of the Nail you may want to look at. They went full Sataninazi in that one, engaging in both outright genocide and sacrificing souls to Hell.
The Order of the Nail (which is actually dedicated to fighting external threats to civilization, like bandits and monsters, though based on their tenets I assume they also pursue genocide against the Kellids and the Shoanti) and the Order of the Godclaw (which was born from the Mendev Crusades and selectively embraces teachings from Torag and Iomedae) are the most likely to have good-aligned members, and to actually be more lawful neutral than evil.
Okay, one of you two, help me out here.
Looking at the wiki you both seem to be right.
What gives?
[Edit: This post was written in response to a post requesting information on the Order of the Nail, particularly in regards to why it wasn't described as horribly in the wiki as it has been described earlier in this thread. That post was apparently deleted before I finished writing mine.]
That was mine.
I did delete it because I kept reading as I was writing and posting and got increasingly confused, and at some point I kind of realized I couldn't figure out what was going on (when I realized that the wiki was both presenting it horribly, and as mostly LN/LG NPCs), so I replaced it with just the post above documenting my confusion.
Sorry to put a snarl in your posting. Thanks for the explanation!
I blame Asmodeus for my confusion.
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Funnily enough most of the other sources put it more towards the LN camp including the actual scenario were youre in the place and interact with them.
Honestly I put the Castle of Golarion section in the same place as Paladin of Asmodeus and none evil undead JuJu till told otherwise since pretty much all the other sources Ive seen put them more towards LN (Or in the case of the Centaur LG since she is that in every source I have seen and suddenly LN in Castles of Golarion before back to LG for the Pathfinder society example.)
Castles of Golarion confirmed where the Order of the Nail stands in the LG-LE spectrum, but there are some other orders that are more gray than black, as mentioned upthread.
If one wants to draw comparisons with Nazis, it's the Order of the Nail you may want to look at. They went full Sataninazi in that one, engaging in both outright genocide and sacrificing souls to Hell.
The Order of the Nail (which is actually dedicated to fighting external threats to civilization, like bandits and monsters, though based on their tenets I assume they also pursue genocide against the Kellids and the Shoanti) and the Order of the Godclaw (which was born from the Mendev Crusades and selectively embraces teachings from Torag and Iomedae) are the most likely to have good-aligned members, and to actually be more lawful neutral than evil.Okay, one of you two, help me out here.
Looking at the wiki you both seem to be right.
What gives?
It depends how strictly you view alignments. You can still have (a relatively small number of) good-aligned members in the Order of the Nail, despite the methods it employs, because they could view their methods as being necessary for the greater good. That said, the chances of one of those good-aligned members being a Paladin or anyone else that views "good" in terms of black and white is pretty close to zero IMO.
"By any means necessary" is most commonly associated with evil and neutral alignments, but it can sometimes be a tool for good - just not "pure" good.
tl;dr - they are both right. The problem is in trying to fit everything neatly into nine alignment boxes when most people don't actually fit into them, but in reality spend most of their time in one and occasionally cross over the border into others (just not enough to move their overall alignment).
Or to put it another way - the Order of the Nail most commonly consists of neutral-aligned individuals performing occasional evil acts they deem necessary (along with some evil individuals enjoying every moment, and some good individuals questioning whether they're really doing the right thing)
It also seems the tendency towards evil alignment rises the higher you look in the ranks (with certain details of Citadel Vraid itself possibly being a factor here). I'd view the "neutral majority" as being the foot soldiers.
Castles of Golarion confirmed where the Order of the Nail stands in the LG-LE spectrum, but there are some other orders that are more gray than black, as mentioned upthread.
If one wants to draw comparisons with Nazis, it's the Order of the Nail you may want to look at. They went full Sataninazi in that one, engaging in both outright genocide and sacrificing souls to Hell.
The Order of the Nail (which is actually dedicated to fighting external threats to civilization, like bandits and monsters, though based on their tenets I assume they also pursue genocide against the Kellids and the Shoanti) and the Order of the Godclaw (which was born from the Mendev Crusades and selectively embraces teachings from Torag and Iomedae) are the most likely to have good-aligned members, and to actually be more lawful neutral than evil.Okay, one of you two, help me out here.
Looking at the wiki you both seem to be right.
What gives?
It depends how strictly you view alignments. You can still have (a relatively small number of) good-aligned members in the Order of the Nail, despite the methods it employs, because they could view their methods as being necessary for the greater good. That said, the chances of one of those good-aligned members being a Paladin or anyone else that views "good" in terms of black and white is pretty close to zero IMO.
"By any means necessary" is most commonly associated with evil and neutral alignments, but it can sometimes be a tool for good - just not "pure" good.
Non-paladin good is capable of some moral compromises without changing alignments, but that in no way makes those compromises good acts. 'Any Means Necessary', pursued with any degree of regularity, makes you Neutral and best, and most likely flat Evil.
Non-paladin good is capable of some moral compromises without changing alignments, but that in no way makes those compromises good acts. 'Any Means Necessary', pursued with any degree of regularity, makes you Neutral and best, and most likely flat Evil.
As you say though, it depends on that degree of regularity. It also depends on how much of that "any means" you, personally, are aware of.
Any good-aligned members are more likely to be relatively new, possibly those seeking justice or revenge for something that happened to people they know. The longer they spend there, the more likely they'll experience some of the less savory actions of the order, and either reject it (and leave) or come to accept it (and shift alignment). It's somewhat telling that I can't find a single good-aligned individual in the leadership, but it doesn't follow that you can't find a few at the lower levels. They're just not necessarily aware yet of the extent of the activities the order participates in.
If the majority that individual has experienced has been the slaying of demons, the chances are they're not quite in danger of losing their good alignment yet.
Alignments are really a wonky system. Its not like there really exists someone out there who is lawful good or evil 24/7. You are not going to take a Psych/Sociology class and find the Gary Gygax alignment system used with any real legitimacy.
I find that's reflected across the whole system, and is something that separates a lot of players. There are those who view character stats and alignment as thresholds to cross (or avoid), and those who view them as ranges on a meter.
Or alternatively, it's down to whether you view game stats as indicators on an analog scale, or absolutes on a digital one.
Now that I've read the Castles of Golarion entry -- what the Citadel Vraid entry supports is less "Hellknights are hardcore Lawful Evil" and more "something is seriously whack at Citadel Vraid."
The majority of the Hellknights in Vraid are lawful neutral, while most of the horrible stuff is being done by their spellcasters in their dedicated section of the keep, which has a restricted access area known as the Hellfast.
I found it fairly telling that 3 of the 5 prisoners that could be rescued from the Hellfast are other Hellknights.
Vraid may well be a blight upon the Hellknights; the side bar for adventure hooks indicate that the other Orders are wondering what in the hell is going on over there and may want to launch an investigation.
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Citadel Vraid
Somehwere between Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.
I wouldn't base a broad view of Hellknights based on what happens in that place.
Late to this party, but, like all alignment constructs, its easily considered evil from our 'real world' point of view, but gets murkier in a game setting. Hell Knight actions may be entirely pragmatic and within the confines of legal precedent of their setting, Are they Evil within the game context? Word of Devs seem to be no. So its easier to just take it for that and not think too much on it.
I like looking at Hellknights like 40k Space Marines. Also as a highlight of the internal struggle they have to face to not fall to "Chaos" because of their daily activities. In the following of their duties they can easily fall and slip to evil. Especially when you start classifying enemies by 'non-alignment' kinda things. But that's also slippery.
Favored enemy: undead? Sure that's generally good and straightfoward. Favored Enemy: Filthy Barbarian/Xeno Scum. That's where it gets tricky. If you're comfortable putting innocents to the sword, men, women, children, noncombatants, because that's what your Order tells you, that's slippery.
RPGs have never done a good job with "long term psychological effects based on behavior and choices". Those that even include them tend to go heavy handed, ala Rifts or Call of Cthulhu, where basically a bad act can make you go nutty. But stuff like, "What are the long term effects of a guy that slaughters tribes because they're barbarians and does so for 10+ levels?" RPG answer? He gets lewt! and XP!
Late to this party, but, like all alignment constructs, its easily considered evil from our 'real world' point of view, but gets murkier in a game setting.
In the real world there are many cultures with many different views of morality, philosophy, and religion. In dnd... There's a single Core Rule book. All hail the CRB! (I think...) Also, your deity may not exist until his splat is released.
Executing a person who acted of desperation may not be Good, but it's not explicitly evil. Generally speaking, enforcing the law in order to protect society is an act of prudence, and therefore neutral. A Paladin who routinely fell into Neutral acts would risk alignment slippage, but a single ambiguous act is not going to cause their loss of status, only an Evil act.
Further, a paladin need only maintain a LG alignment; they can perform any number of neutral, even chaotic acts, as long as they remain, ultimately, resolutely Lawful Good in outlook. That means that a LG paladin functions within a Lawful Neutral organization riddled with evil by ... cheating. Bending, occasionally breaking rules. Trying to remain within the letter of the law as much as possible, but looking the other way now and then. They might risk slipped into a NG alignment, but it's kind of doubtful, actually; their ironclad determination to endure in that organization is probably going to provide a stern bulwark against non-lawful behavior.
So, I imagine paladins are rare, but once they are in the organization, it's not actually all that complicated to remain LG and a paladin, although it may be strenuous and emotionally draining at times.
It's not hard to imagine an organization that is LN even with many LE members and which looks to LE devils as a source of military inspiration. If you simply assume that most members are fairly altruistic to other members, and generally refrain from harming innocent people, they remain Neutral, not evil. Most of the more evil acts they perform are still for reasons of prudence, not malice, and hence are not as individually damning. And if they do occasionally perform the occasional Evil act, perhaps they are tempting their soul, but I think the organization encourages them to remain grounded. Rather than truly dominating the organization, I imagine LE types in many operations are the designated "dirty work" guys, tame devils-you-know who are always up for a bit of the rough stuff when it needs to be done. When significant wings of the organization fall under the sway of predominantly LE individuals, I think it would probably cause that group to rogue, to some extent.
But at the end of the day, there is a definite risk of corruption by actual devils. Between the rigid Lawful hiearchy, the emphasis on personal power, and their extensive knowledge of things diabolic, there is every temptation present.