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So, in case you don't know what all the acronyms that I made up in the subject are:
FPV - First Person View
OR - Oculus Rift
PFO - Really? You should know this one.
So, doing a google site search, and searching through Paizo for a thread on the OR, I found one, BUT, here's the problemo: it descended into a debate as to whether PFO should feature FPV or not, and NOT whether it should be OR compatible. So, I've decided to start this thread talking about how much I HATE FPV in games like this.
First person view works really terribly in the vast majority of situations. The reason is that this little screen (or big screen even) can't get the FPV right, there's just not enough room, so, it looks like you have tunnel vision. And if you want to see what's behind you, you have to swing ALL the way around.
I'm an old-skool DAoC hardcore PvP'er, and we had a name for people who went into PvP using FPV: "newbs". They would just get owned very quickly, because we could strafe around them, and magically "disappear" as far as they were concerned. So really, you could tool them very quickly.
Even the "you can see your hands" crap from the Elder Scrolls series I thought was ridiculous, and was pissed when they decided to waste even more of their time adding it to ESO (I'm no longer following that piece of junk abomination of a game).
So, long story short, FPV in MMO's is (for the sake of being politically correct) retarded.
So, why then am I all for having a FPV in PFO? For the OR of course.
For those of you who don't know what the OR is, it's by far the most powerful Virtual Reality (VR) headset every created for consumers, and like PFO, it was launched on Kickstarter, and funded over a year ago.
It gives people a HUGE field of view, and essentially does what VR goggles are designed to do: Immerse the player 100%.
I'll show you some videos of people using them...
People become terrified in roller-coaster games, or horror games, because it just feels so real.
One thing I should point out, is that David Helgason is the CEO of Unity, the game engine that PFO is using, and he is VERY involved with Oculus Rift.
Long story short, if you don't know what it is, you can check it out here. I recommend you check out the video there first thing.
So, if I hate FPV so much, then why do I think that the OR will work well in an MMO? Simple: It solves the main problems generally associated with FPV in an MMORPG.
First of all, seeing behind you... this is the biggie. How does it solve it? Well, it has a 110° field of view... which is HUGE... and because you can move your head around with very low lag... you can see what's behind you very quickly... just by turning your head a little bit, like you'd do in real life.
Also, FPV in vidya games isn't usually immersive, and that is CERTAINLY not a problem with the OR. I've seen people TERRIFIED on roller coaster virtual experiences, AS WELL as in horror games.
In fact, if you want to see a 20-something year old guy literally CRY from playing a vidya game with the Oculus Rift, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl7fz__6B-4
Here's a whole video of OR reaction compilations, because I think the best way to get a feel for how good they are is to watch these reaction vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INDKNA7kXoo
And here's one more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjNLvgqZgUI
So, long story short, I don't want to play in Golarion... I want to GO TO Golarion... and with the OR, I think we can do this. Who's with me?
I think the debate as I remember it came down to most were happy for first person view to be an option as long as they didnt have to use it and could use the more conventional mmo style view.
I too am a big fan of oculus rift however I would not consider using it in a pvp game while 110 degrees is certainly larger than the 90 to 100 degrees used in most first person shooters it is only marginally so and still a lot smaller than the 360 degree field of view offered by the conventional mmo view.
Show me someone using an oculus rift in a game like this and I believe it will be an easy target. Oculus Rift would work only if all were restricted to the same field of view.
As to the latency of mouse turning versus head turning. One I believe I can turn faster with a mouse I think you underestimate how quick mouse turning really is. In addition head turning if we assume you can turn your head 90 degrees (which many cant) still leaves a 70 degree blind spot to your rear which those using a conventional mmo pov do not.
While I am happy for them to put oculus support into the game it should only be done under the following understanding. They will not limit others field of view to level the playing field which I am fairly sure that there would be some agitation for by those who wish to use the headset but don't think they should be at a disadvantage.
I like 3rd person better myself (than regular FPV view, w/o the OR), but it doesn't give "360° vision" as you say... you can see in front of you, and then some behind you, but you can't see all around the way a spider could.
Also, I think your underestimating 110° vision... it's basically real life. Remember, what's behind you is °180 behind you, and remember, you can turn your character AND your head (and partially your body) at the same time.
This means that if you're using the WASD keys, and want to see someone behind you, you can hit the "A" key to turn left, and as your toon is turning left, you've already moved your head and body about 120°+ to the left (if you turn your head all the way left, and then keep going left with your body and head, you'll see that's not hard to do, VERY quickly, and you can turn your head back the other way too, very quickly also).
So, if your character can 90° in about 1 second, and you can turn 120° in one second (both very reasonable) that's 210° of turning PER SECOND.
This would also not matter at all if we had a /stick and /face command. We could just bind them to our keyboards, and when we were attacked, just hit the face or stick command and we're facing the target immediately, and they can't circle strafe around us (the problem is literally THAT easy to solve).
I have put my point already. I will just reiterate I would my money on the person with the third person view anyday over the headset guy. I have used these style of things and there is no way the vision is good enough to compete.
I am not sure what you are doing wrong in addition when I use third person in mmo's I can quite easily see what is all the way around my character at all times for a good 20 feet or so. Which is plenty of sight in PVP. I do not need to turn to see the warrior running up behind me the OR user does.
As to stick and face commands....really this is your solution...take any movement skill out of the equation. While I prefer to remove circle running there is still a lot of movement that can be done positionally to provide PVP advantage.
As I said I don't mind them supporting OR with the proviso I stated. I do however predict that most user's will reserve their OR use for non PVP situations after a while
Goblin Squad Member
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It's been said that circle strafing is a behavior they don't want in PfO, so when you tab target something your character will turn to attack them regardless of their position compared to the camera. That means that, though it might be a little disorienting depending on how the camera interacts, there isn't a huge disadvantage during 1v1 combat, though I could see a disadvantage in the bit of time right before a combat, and in a combat with multiple enemies moving to flank and such. That being said, I'm all for letting people play in 1st person if they want to.
It's been said that circle strafing is a behavior they don't want in PfO, so when you tab target something your character will turn to attack them regardless of their position compared to the camera. That means that, though it might be a little disorienting depending on how the camera interacts, there isn't a huge disadvantage during 1v1 combat, though I could see a disadvantage in the bit of time right before a combat, and in a combat with multiple enemies moving to flank and such. That being said, I'm all for letting people play in 1st person if they want to.
It's not about adding "FPV", that's already in the game... I'm talking about making if OR compatible, which is a whole different thing.
And @ZenPagan: I couldn't help but laugh when you used the word "movement skill", as if circle-strafing around your enemy like a retard is a "skill"... it's not. 12-year Call of Duty players might think it is... but skill is about knowing what ability to use in any given situation, not strafing around like a moron.
Also, @Shane yes, they said when you tab-target to your enemy you'll automatically face them... so really, this is a mute point.
Also, I think people are underestimating the Oculus Rift. Since the person wearing the VR goggles is "in" the world, instead of seeing it through a small window (the screen) and can quickly turn their head at any moment to see FAR in any direction... I would go so far as to say that the OR person MIGHT have the advantage in PvP
And @ZenPagan: I couldn't help but laugh when you used the word "movement skill", as if circle-strafing around your enemy like a retard is a "skill"... it's not. 12-year Call of Duty players might think it is... but skill is about knowing what ability to use in any given situation, not strafing around like a moron.
And you failed to read the part where I said I would be quite happy if they managed to stop circle strafing. Perhaps you should learn to read what people say rather than make assumptions
Positional skill is important in PVP other than circle strafing, if you dont consider it so then that is your problem not mine
And @ZenPagan: I couldn't help but laugh when you used the word "movement skill", as if circle-strafing around your enemy like a retard is a "skill"... it's not. 12-year Call of Duty players might think it is... but skill is about knowing what ability to use in any given situation, not strafing around like a moron.
And you failed to read the part where I said I would be quite happy if they managed to stop circle strafing. Perhaps you should learn to read what people say rather than make assumptions
Positional skill is important in PVP other than circle strafing, if you dont consider it so then that is your problem not mine
Positional skill is basically irrelevant with tab-targeting... we're not using a reticle, but anyways, I'd rather not side-track this thread, so let us move on
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would suspect that the devs should allow for this, but it is not minimum viable product. I suspect that having both 1st and 3rd point of view may be more than minimum and we seem to be seeing 1st person in graphics released. In one, I seem to recall a little circle in lower right which may have been 3rd person. So there may be thought to support both simultaneously. I might suggest an upper corner as there could be item of interest at one's feet/side.
lam
O.R. is probably good for immersion as a very new experience from this tech? I guess it could be crowdfunded later when there will more atmosphere from the creation of player nations and businesses etc?
Hey, if they need more money, I'd be happy to donate to a 3rd kickstarter that endeavors to make PFO OR compatible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's one of those things with a decent population who *love* the game/world/community, this sort of immersion would be very interesting for many of them to club together I'd guess? Unless like CCP you have some good cash to feedback eg Valkyrie, but that would take GW a bit longer I suspect.
Positional skill is basically irrelevant with tab-targeting... we're not using a reticle, but anyways, I'd rather not side-track this thread, so let us move on
Positional skill is irrelevant with tab targetting only with auto face...I have just been through the dev quotes and I find nothing to support any suggestion that there would be auto facing in game. Some have claimed they said this so I think we need a quote showing it.
As to OR support, I would suspect that it functions much as NVidia's 3dvison system. This does not require any particular coding to get the OR to work. Indeed I have seen plenty of videos of OR being used by games that definitely have no programming done to support OR. This being the case the support needed will be more a case of taking more care with the depth axis. Under 3d vision this is where most of the glaring inconsistencies come from ,text and pointers appearing to float on a glass pane rather than being in the picture being some of the more obvious examples.
As to implementing only one view as Lam posits...if so I suspect this would be third person only as it is the view mmo players expect. Not being able to see your own avatar would I suspect be a big thumbs down from a lot of players
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Goblin Squad Member
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With regards to auto-facing:
The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows. As long as the target is in range and line of sight, you should be able to hit it whether or not you've maneuvered your character to the right direction. We don't particularly want to encourage people to circle-strafe in PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Positional skill is irrelevant with tab targetting only with auto face...I have just been through the dev quotes and I find nothing to support any suggestion that there would be auto facing in game.
They just said it recently.
The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows.
[Edit]*sigh*
Well-done, Nightdrifter :)
Reminds me of when Dario used to do that to me all the time... I wonder what happened to him.
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Thanks for the quote I missed it somehow when I did a search. While I hate circle strafing I also have to say I hate auto facing just as much. It cuts off some of the options you have such as the initial surprise when they aren't quite sure where the attack came from when they automatically turn to face you. We can also assume then I guess that they won't be putting positional based attacks in game
Thanks for the quote I missed it somehow when I did a search. While I hate circle strafing I also have to say I hate auto facing just as much. It cuts off some of the options you have such as the initial surprise when they aren't quite sure where the attack came from when they automatically turn to face you. We can also assume then I guess that they won't be putting positional based attacks in game
Problem solved. Oculus Rift is in...
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Goblin Squad Member
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... they aren't quite sure where the attack came from when they automatically turn to face you.
If your character doesn't automatically target your attacker, then this isn't a problem, is it?
We can also assume then I guess that they won't be putting positional based attacks in game
I don't think so...
Pathfinder tabletop doesn't have backstabbing or facing. It has sneak attacking, which has a different set of qualifiers.
Flanking is exactly what Pathfinder simulates. Because it does not require facing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I would think that positional attacks and such are very much still a consideration. There's still a need for tactical positioning: spread out to avoid AoE's, don't get caught in a flank, take out higher damage targets while protecting your own, stay within range of your best healer, and so on. They only remove the part where you have to constantly spin your camera and character in a fight.
As to removing the advantage for surprise, this system isn't any different than WoW or other tab-targetting games in that regard. That is dependant on auto-locking your attacker, as Nihimon said.
However, back to the topic at hand. My concern is the cost of developing OR compatibility versus the market for PfO players who would use it. I think it would be awesome for the people that would use it, but are there enough of those people?
While the OR looks cool, from what I have read it isn't quite ready for the mainstream yet. Also, if I ever get it. The OR 2 version with 1080p and other stuff will probably be the version I get. And hopefully by then, it will be not just PC but Console too.
I think they're trying to launch the first consumer version in 1080p. The Dev version is currently in 720p.
@Decius: I've heard them talk about making games OR-compatible, though I'm honestly not technical enough to really know what that means. I know they have to make SOME adjustments in order to make it a full OR experience. I'd love to hear from Ryan or someone as to whether or not they have any plans for this.