A magus Spell is, regarding Spell combat, Andy Spell that the magus casts from his magus class Spell casting. It you use the spells you get from your magus class it is magus spells.
That is the only way i can read it.
So B! I take option B.
It's A. Spell combat specifically says "from the magus spell list." As long as it's a spell on the magus spell list, you can spell combat with it. There's also abilities that let you treat non-magus spells as spells on the magus spell list, like spell blending.
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By definition of the spell combat trait, it says "from the magus spell list" not "the magus's spell list."
You can only use spell combat with spells off of the magus spell list. If the spell is being casted via another class, but is still in the magus spell list somewhere, it counts. So yes, your bard with the same spell as a magus can use it with Spell combat. No where does it say it must be from an expenditure of a magus spell slot, only that it must be a standard action casting timed spell.
Edit: I choose A. The reasoning is that just because a spell is cast through a spell slot, does not make that spell a spell off of that spell slots spell list. There are things in this game that lets other classes cast spells not on their own spell list, in place of one of their spell slots.
I'd go with this, not sure RAI but seems 'the most' RAW from the options given so far, though I wonder if it might also mean the spell has to come from the same spell level as it would be on the Magus list [So a Wizard Haste would work with SC, a Summoner Haste would not].
Everyone else is correct Shadowcat. It is a spell from the Magus spelllist. Some spells appear on most than one class list. As an example haste is on more than one class list, but if you check the magus class list and the spell is there then the magus can use it with spell combat. It never says "magus only" spells. That would be terrible way to word it since some spells that belong to one class may eventually belong to another class due to future splat books.
Hmrph. I know that there's a FAQ or a post that tangentially touches on (what I assume) this topic is about. Something about defining the 'normal spell list'. I'm drawing blanks right now. But I remember reading it and thinking "Ok, so can't use spells from other class slots for Spell Combat". If I find it, I'll post it. Might have gotten it backwards, but something is out there.
Yea, I'm not finding it. Probably have the wrong keywords in mind. Ah well.
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I've always interpreted it as "cast from your magus spell slots". So B.
A would suggest that, for example, a Magus2/Wiz18 could cast wizard spells with spell combat, as long as they were on the magus list. I don't think that's the intention.
That does raise the question that feats and arcana that expand a particular magus's spell list may not then be usable in Spell Combat. That interpretation would invalidate a common practice of taking Expanded Arcana to add Touch of Fatigue as a cantrip.
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So what constitutes a magus spell for purposes of spell combat?
Is it:
A) A spell from the magus list, even if being cast through another class's spell slots?
B) A spell cast through magus spell slots?
C) Something else entirely?
For an example of A, consider a bard 4 / magus 1 casting bladed dash out of a bard spell slot.
(D): Both (A) and (B). Suppose I am a multiclass character, magus 1/wizard 1 (universalist), with an intelligence score of 16. I could then prepare:
Wizard 0: 3 spellsWizard 1: 2 spells
Magus 0: 3 spells
Magus 1: 2 spells
I might prepare 4 Shocking Grasp spells for the day,l but I can use Spell Combat with only two of them. The magus version of the spell is not the same as the wizard version of the spell. One might even argue that I would need to have the spell written in two different places.
At least, that is how I read the rules.
I think that the broad study arcana could be useful. That arcana let you use another spell list other than yours magus spell list for spell combat and spellstrike, but don't let you ignore arcane Armor failure.
+1 to what black storm said.
Because the broad study magus arcana exists (among other evidence), unless you take broad study, you cannot use a spell that is not on the magus spell list.
Pretty clearly A.
That's why my next character is going to go Wizard 1/Magus 1/Wizard 4 then into the prestige class for the BaB.
If you don't think it's clear I'll FAQ it :)
Hmrph. I know that there's a FAQ or a post that tangentially touches on (what I assume) this topic is about. Something about defining the 'normal spell list'. I'm drawing blanks right now. But I remember reading it and thinking "Ok, so can't use spells from other class slots for Spell Combat". If I find it, I'll post it. Might have gotten it backwards, but something is out there.
I also thought I had seen something official recently, although I thought that it allowed Spellcombat with Magus spells cast in non magus slot. But I'm not finding it either.
People I have an answer. I would have done this sooner, but I had to go to work.
It's more of a corner case, but would Magus Spell Combat (if it allows casting other class' slots to begin with) allow casting SLAs as part of Spell Combat? (assuming the spell is also on the Magus list).
No, because he actually has to be casting one of his magus spells from his magus spell list ("... [he] can also cast any spell from the magus spell list ..."), not a spell-like ability that happens to have the same name as a spell from the magus spell list.
Magus Spell List
Magi gain access to the following spells.
0-Level Magus Spells—acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, spark.
1st-Level Magus Spells—burning hands, chill touch, color spray, corrosive touch, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, feather fall, flare burst, floating disk, frostbite, grease, hydraulic push, jump, magic missile, magic weapon, mount, obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person, shield, shocking grasp, silent image, stone fist, true strike, unseen servant, vanish.
2nd-Level Magus Spells—acid arrow, alter self, bear's endurance, blood transcription, blur, bull's strength, burning gaze, cat's grace, darkness, defensive shock, elemental touch, fire breath, flaming sphere, fog cloud, frigid touch, glitterdust, gust of wind, invisibility, levitate, minor image, mirror image, pyrotechnics, scorching ray, shatter, spider climb, stone call, web.
3rd-Level Magus Spells—aqueous orb, arcane sight, beast shape I, blink, cloak of winds, daylight, dispel magic, displacement, elemental aura, fireball, flame arrow, fly, force hook charge, force punch, gaseous form, haste, hydraulic torrent, keen edge, lightning bolt, magic weapon (greater), major image, monstrous physique I, phantom steed, ray of exhaustion, sleet storm, slow, stinking cloud, undead anatomy I, vampiric touch, versatile weapon, water breathing, wind wall.
4th-Level Magus Spells—arcana theft, ball lightning, beast shape II, black tentacles, detonate, dimension door, dragon's breath, elemental body I, enlarge person (mass), fire shield, firefall, ice storm, invisibility (greater), monstrous physique II, phantasmal killer, reduce person (mass), river of wind, shout, solid fog, stoneskin, vermin shape I, wall of fire, wall of ice, wall of sound.
5th-Level Magus Spells—acidic spray, baleful polymorph, beast shape III, cloudkill, cone of cold, corrosive consumption, elemental body II, fire snake, geyser, interposing hand, monstrous physique III, overland flight, telekinesis, teleport, undead anatomy II, vermin shape II, wall of force, wall of stone.
6th-Level Magus Spells—acid fog, bear's endurance (mass), beast shape IV, bull's strength (mass), cat's grace (mass), chain lightning, contagious flame, disintegrate, dispel magic (greater), elemental body III, flesh to stone, forceful hand, form of the dragon I, freezing sphere, mislead, monstrous physique IV, sirocco, stone to flesh, transformation, true seeing, undead anatomy III, wall of iron.
In short the spell must be on his spell list, so barring a rules exception which spell blender might be since I have not looked it up personally any other class's spell is denied.
Although SKR's response suggests strongly that he believes that RAI, it means "the spells you personally have from being a magus", meaning your magus spell slots.
Where are you getting that? He only says it has to be "a magus spell from [the] magus spell list," nothing about slots. If you're assuming that "a magus spell" must be a spell cast from magus spell slots, well, that's the entire question this thread is trying to answer.
Not that it has to try very hard, though, because the rules are indeed clear, at least in the general case. I don't see how the rules leave much room for interpretation: as far as spell combat is concerned, a magus spell is "any spell from the magus spell list." So, from the OP, the answer is A. A Magus 1/Wizard 11 could use Disintegrate with spell combat if they liked.
Maybe the definition of "from" is getting a bit muddled for some people, and they think it's modifying the "cast" in "cast any spell from the magus spell list." This is not the case. "From" does not mean "though the class spell slots associated with," but only "appearing on." This is just the preferred rules language for this sort of thing. Eg. Greater Spell Access, Expanded Arcana, Unsanctioned Knowledge, etc.
My point is that he said "from his magus spell list". A spell list is a specific thing.
Basically the magus must know the spell as a magus not as wizard or sorc he multiclassed into. With an FAQ or errata SKR's reply is most likely the correct one. It is what I would use until something official came out.
Basically the magus must know the spell as a magus not as wizard or sorc he multiclassed into. With an FAQ or errata SKR's reply is most likely the correct one. It is what I would use until something official came out.
Again, I don't see how that necessarily follows from SKR's quote. It's certainly a plausible restriction in the abstract, but if that's the intent it hasn't been communicated through the rules.
Basically the magus must know the spell as a magus not as wizard or sorc he multiclassed into. With an FAQ or errata SKR's reply is most likely the correct one. It is what I would use until something official came out.Again, I don't see how that necessarily follows from SKR's quote. It's certainly a plausible restriction in the abstract, but if that's the intent it hasn't been communicated through the rules.
"The book" says "magus spell list", and SKR says "from the magus spell list" with regard to the use of spell combat. If that is not clear then could you explain what the magus spell list is since I actually posted the magus spell list, and it is a definite thing?
Hmmm. I think you guys are going too far in the exact wording. As long as broad study exist, I think that you can spell combat and spellstrike only with your magus slots. That's because, as for broad study is written, it would be totally useless if you already could spellstrike / combat from your other spellcasting class. So I can't see how it could be different.
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"The book" says "magus spell list", and SKR says "from the magus spell list" with regard to the use of spell combat. If that is not clear then could you explain what the magus spell list is since I actually posted the magus spell list, and it is a definite thing?
The magus spell list is what it is, there's no disagreement about that. Spell lists don't depend on level. A 1st level magus has the same list as a 20th level magus, Blending arcana notwithstanding. That's the same reason why a 1st level ranger can use a wand of Abundant Ammunition without UMD, despite having no spellcasting ability whatsoever.
To cast a spell with spell combat, the only requirement is that the spell appear on the magus spell list. There is no requirement imposed, either by skill description or by SKR's comment, that it must also have been learned from the magus spell list and prepared in the magus class slots.
Think of it this way: the magus spell list serves two purposes. One, as a list of spells that may be learned by magi and prepared through class-granted slots. Two, as a list of spells that may be cast through spell combat (as long as they have the appropriate cast time). These functions are similar, but separate.
As far as Broad Study, yeah, the point is to enable spells gained from levels in other classes that aren't on the magus list at all.
One other point:
A magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Notice how this section clearly distinguishes between spells prepared with magus slots, and spells on the magus list but learned/prepared with slots from other classes. And notice how there is no similar clarification in the Spell Combat class feature. I'm sure to some people will still interpret this as reminder text rather than necessary rules language, but for most this should serve to show that the majority opinion is the correct one. If a Magus 6/Wizard 5 wants to Spell Combat with Fireball, they can do so, as long as they can deal with the arcane spell failure.
I see what you mean now. I know what the ruling is, but the book does not go into detail on it.
Yeah this does need clarification.
I have always assumed that the rules stated (and implied) B. Wraithstrike's quote from SKR seems to contradict that. And just to point out, in the same thread Wraithstrike linked, Sean went on to imply further that he wasn't just talking about SLAs:
In some cases the rules are lenient about multiclassing stuff (for example, there's nothing in the mnemonic enhancer spell that says the additional spell levels you're preparing have to be wizard spells, so a cleric/wizard could use it to prepare some additional cures), but in the case of the magus, it's specifically referring to the magus spell list, so... *shrug*
So to be honest, while I'd like to vote B, I think I've been doing it wrong the whole time (Cheapy says as much in his response, lol). So my vote is for A.
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You're saying that you can only use spell combat with the slots from the magus class because wizard shocking grasp isn't a magus spell, right? How is that different than B in any way, shape or form?
That is precisely what I am saying. The way I see it, the magus has learned to cast the spell with slightly different verbal and somantic components, allowing him to cast the spell while participating in combat. Neither a wizard not an eldritch knight has learned to do this.
You're saying that you can only use spell combat with the slots from the magus class because wizard shocking grasp isn't a magus spell, right? How is that different than B in any way, shape or form?That is precisely what I am saying. The way I see it, the magus has learned to cast the spell with slightly different verbal and somantic components, allowing him to cast the spell while participating in combat. Neither a wizard not an eldritch knight has learned to do this.
Except they are the same spell. And it very specifically states that I Magus can copy spells from a Wizards spell book and vice versa. And very specifically states that a Magus/Wizard still incurs Arcane Spell failure when casting Wizard spells-- but says that he can use Spell Combat with any spell "on the Magus Spell list".
The blending Arcana is to allow using it with NON-Magus Spells, not non magus spell slots-- spells that are not on the Magus spell list at all.
Except they are the same spell. And it very specifically states that I Magus can copy spells from a Wizards spell book and vice versa. And very specifically states that a Magus/Wizard still incurs Arcane Spell failure when casting Wizard spells-- but says that he can use Spell Combat with any spell "on the Magus Spell list".The blending Arcana is to allow using it with NON-Magus Spells, not non magus spell slots-- spells that are not on the Magus spell list at all.
And what about Broad Study?
"Broad Study (Ex): The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class's spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components. The magus must be at least 6th level and must possess levels in at least one other spellcasting class before selecting this arcana."Emphasys mine.
Now, just to be curious: can a cleric/magus spellcombat Magic Weapon if he prepared it in cleric slots?
If not, why? If yes, why?
The point is that the arcane armor failure removal is not a signature of spell combat. Now, if you're right, you can say I can cast MW from cleric levels with spell combat. So, in all ways (as long as divine spells don't have ACF), Broad study would be totally useless for a multiclass magus, as long as he could cast any spell that is in his list without problem, even if it come from other classes. You can spell combat even divine spells.
As far I can see it, it seems to be too far away from the intent of the class. I can't see why I should incur in ACF for casting a wiz shocking grasp. SG is a magus spell, after all. It shouldn't matter if I cast it in wiz or magus slot. Since it's a magus spell, I shouldn't incur in ACF, yup? Instead, I incur in ACF. So, it seems to me this is something like talking about sex of angels: spell combat is a magus class feature, so it applies only with other magus class features, unless otherwise noted.
For Spell Blending: how do you know if a spell is on the magus spell list? If A spell isn't on magus list, but later it become thanks to spell blending, can I suddenly spell combat it in my wiz slot?
My interpretation is that a Magus/Cleric could use Spell combat while casting Bull's Strength with a cleric slot since it is on the Magus spell list.
Broad study expands his ability and allows him to then cast Cure Light wounds which is not in combination with the Spell combat.
Spellstrike and the Ignore Arcane Spell Failure are two different abilities there is no reason that one couldn't include multi-class cast spells and the other not-- its not mutually exclusive or an either/or where they both have to follow the same rules.
While I do agree that this is a bit of a silly question, I also agree that this is a frequently asked question.
There's plenty of precedent for this in the game, but the easiest example to understand would be if you were playing a multiclass Cleric 8/Wizard 5.
Both classes have summon monster on the list. But you don't get to use your cleric casting level when you have that spell memorized from your wizard's spellbook. You use your caster level 5 for being a wizard.
Likewise, your magus casts spells from his magus spell list as a magus of whatever level he is, and only those spells (not spells memorized or otherwise attached to another class) count as magus spells.