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To offer an outsider's perspective...
The Arsheans do a lot of good for the world. They've certainly helped me through some dark times.
There truly are lands where hearts are unjustly policed. One need only look at Cheliax or Ustalav, where sexuality of various sorts is cast in a shameful light, forcing people into the shadows for solace. And all too often love is turned into something twisted and broken there in the dark.
Even in lands where matters of love are not stigmatized, there are still those whose circumstances deny them the basic acceptance and peace of mind they would otherwise be granted. I did not have the benefit of a...stable upbringing. Few tieflings do. I spent most of my childhood being taught that I was a creature of sin, damned from birth for a fundamentally tainted state of being. A scion and exemplar of unholy lust.
That alone would fundamentally damage any child. And while the later years spent growing to adulthood in a monastery were more peaceful and sane, celibate monks and nuns were unfortunately unable to mend those scars and prepare me for the feelings that came during those teenage years.
A legacy of shame coupled with the fires of the blood does little for one's spiritual health. Learning that your desires are more wide-ranging than you initially believed only further complicates matters.
Moving past that and leaving that shame behind was painful, but reclaiming oneself and realizing that desire and longing can lead to brighter and more joyful roads is well worth that journey. I needed a lot of help to do that. And it was an Arshean and a Lynieran who helped me along the most difficult stretch. Mostly they helped with gentle words and a willingness to listen to my pain. But their gentle touch played a important role as well, as they walked me through my fears. And wiping away my tears. No judgment. No mockery. Only an all-accepting love and understanding.
All across this world there are those who are hurting in ways I can only imagine. Many of them need the Arsheans and Lymnierans and the Shelynites and the love that they remind us to keep sacred.
There are those who look down on the followers of the faiths of love. They look at Arshea and ask "What does this faith, embracing and exemplifying softness, offer a world so full of danger? What does such a path offer in the face of stalwart, forceful gods? Such as Iomedae?"
They neglect that Arsheans and those like them help remind us Iomedaeans of what we fight for.
And in such a dangerous world, that truly is a blessing.
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Benorus
/hipster glasses
EDIT: To explain I like that even if he's lesser with little fluff there is something that is allowed to be in the underground/underdark without LOLEVIL
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If one of the parties in the arranged marriage is unhappy with the situation, it's not mutually agreed upon by the lovers themselves (even if the arrangers agree) so it's exactly the sort of thing Arshea would oppose.
Was thinking more along the lines of arranged marriages that are mutually agreed upon, like for instance in First Knight, where they believe that it will be for the greater good or most helpful even if the two don't know each other. Not all arranged marriages are undesirable affairs, and most of them serve some other purpose.
But anyway, I think I've gotten to the agree to disagree part. I don't deny that Arshea's followers have some good people in there, I just don't see the entire package as Good aligned, which doesn't mean it can't be helpful to people or have a purpose. It just means I don't really see Arshea as an uber-heavenly being or it's faithful as the moral side of the divine patron spectrum.
Off the top of my head I claim a penchant for The Black Butterfly, Dammerich, and Zohls.
The rest are interesting depending on whether the mood strikes me.
If there is one I can say I don't care about it would be Arshea. I would throw in my vote that it seems more chaotic good neutral good. Also, this is my eye on this matter but the depiction is more masculine that androgynous and so does not succeed with that. Comparatively I find Lymnieris more interesting.
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While Arshea and Lymnieris are "interesting" as a fresh (or, actually, older/"pre-Puritan"*) perspective on sexuality not being inherently "bad"/sinful in and of itself, I personally consider Arqueros, Bharnarol, Black Butterfly, Damerrich, Eritrice, Irez, Korada, Ragathiel, Soralyon, Tanagaar, and Zohls to be more "useful" for most campaigns. Actually, I think Damerrich is even more "interesting" than Arshea or Lymnieris; a LG empyreal lord of executions?
*- Who, like other groups, were influenced by Gnostic ideals that the physical world/peoples' bodies was/were a source of temptation away from the "pure" doctrines of the faith; physical pleasure (not just sex, but also comfort, tasty food, etc.) was always "bad" and self-denial/self-mortification (fasting, hair shirts, flagellation, etc.) was always "good."
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Benorus
/hipster glasses
EDIT: To explain I like that even if he's lesser with little fluff there is something that is allowed to be in the underground/underdark without LOLEVIL
Nothing hipstery about the champion of hidden wonders in the dark corners of the world.
(He was into protecting the people of the Darklands before it was popular. :) )Great choice for a svirfneblin deity-figure. Benorus got some use in Wayfinder #9 too.
On a related note, Black Butterfly is a lock for whenever I need a positive deity for a drow. Her Obedience is practically made for outcast heroes.
I've been completely intrigued by Black Butterfly ever since I picked up Chronicle of the Righteous.
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Black Butterfly is pretty cool. I really like Daimerich. Ragathiel is probably still my favorite, if for nothing else because he earned his place and the trust and respect of the others, but also personally leading an assault on Avernus, and burned down one of the iron towers before becoming an Empyreal Lord is pretty BA. I also really like Ghenshau, but thin the summary info is extremely misleading. I was a bit disappointed with Vildeis. The art is probably the best of the entire book, but I think it would have been a lot better if they would have made her more like the patron saint of endurance and martyrdom (in a general sense) than whatever exactly she is. A sort of unknown angel that comes to those in true need and takes on their punishments or hardships for a time so that they can once again get strong enough to lift them themselves, and her followers would either take on themselves the unjust sufferings of others, or join them in until the innocent are freed from their unfair or overwhelming punishments, or to help them to accomplish the task faster or to at least make it through them safely.
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If one of the parties in the arranged marriage is unhappy with the situation, it's not mutually agreed upon by the lovers themselves (even if the arrangers agree) so it's exactly the sort of thing Arshea would oppose.Was thinking more along the lines of arranged marriages that are mutually agreed upon, like for instance in First Knight, where they believe that it will be for the greater good or most helpful even if the two don't know each other. Not all arranged marriages are undesirable affairs, and most of them serve some other purpose.
But anyway, I think I've gotten to the agree to disagree part. I don't deny that Arshea's followers have some good people in there, I just don't see the entire package as Good aligned, which doesn't mean it can't be helpful to people or have a purpose. It just means I don't really see Arshea as an uber-heavenly being or it's faithful as the moral side of the divine patron spectrum.
Nope the first product to specifically include two gay NPCs was Adventure Path #1, with a gay paladin and bard. And again was the first to introduce that homophobia does exist in Golarion as well with NPCs who were disapproving of their relationship.
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If I recall correctly, AP1 (and many others) have included gay characters, but it was sort of hidden in the small print, and either the DM had to sort of push it to the forefront or the players had to really dig. I was speaking more about it being obvious, and I freely admit I could be wrong.
Disapproving of homosexuality is not homophobia, and the world at large is perfectly fine with it. That doesn't mean individuals might not issues, though, just like individuals might have issues with all sorts of things they don't agree with or approve of.
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Paladins of Arshea? i wonder what the code is
Good, Giving, and Game?
Another for Ragathiel, because the world needs more fiend-blooded but good aligned outsiders.
I've already gone, but a few people mentioned Dammerich. I'm gonna have to say I find his concept really cool. Executioners with their black-hoodeds and big axes always seem to be stigmatized as bad dudes in fantasy RPGs. They have a really crap job and people hate them for it, but in the end someone has to do their duty. Especially in a world of magic users, werewolves, and other essentially super-powered criminals. I really respect the effort on Paizo's part to expand the meaning of good to more cynical or solemn stuff. There's a lot more gray area (and in my opinion, freedom of character) in the alignment system that way.
Nothing hipstery about the champion of hidden wonders in the dark corners of the world.
(He was into protecting the people of the Darklands before it was popular. :) )Great choice for a svirfneblin deity-figure. Benorus got some use in Wayfinder #9 too.
I'd tell you more about my favorite angel, but he's too underground.
Also another +1 for Dammerich. He also allows me to use one of my favorite groups of phrases from the history/Big O. CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD. YE NOT GUILTY
I made an executioners sword magical item that had that scrivened in the side but changed based on who drew it. If they weren't righteous in their execution it would do less damage and become merciful and the side said YE GUILTY.
If an evil character picked it up it said CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD. YE NOT. and didn't work
The Empyreal Lord of Hipsterism.
Favored Weapon: Fedora.
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Not sure why you say that, (well other than the most obvious).
Its been mentioned thay Ragathiel's devotion is a bit off, and was not intened to be used daily, or even weekly.
Dammerich is more of a mature representation of the guy that steps up to do the real dirty work that others can't handle or stomach. And you say Texas like its somehow a bad thing. Probably better we refrain from pointing the cultural or ethinic finger, my friend.
I thought it was pretty much already determined that Desna was the same general sort of creature as a Great Old One, except inclined to be kind and good and involved in the lives of mortal beings.
I thought it was pretty much already determined that Desna was the same general sort of creature as a Great Old One, except inclined to be kind and good and involved in the lives of mortal beings.
Its been stated that Desna is Not a great old or a creature like a great old. She is a goddess of stars with a great knowledge of the "Mythos Threat."
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I thought it was pretty much already determined that Desna was the same general sort of creature as a Great Old One, except inclined to be kind and good and involved in the lives of mortal beings.
That's my understanding as well. She (it) is not a great old one, sort of, but is just as old and alien, and her actual appearance is that of a massive space bug. Sort of an alien deity from another existence, and maybe one of the only deities older than Eristal, but that might not be true either, (I mean in the setting).
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Wow, I really didn't pick the popular ones to like, it seems. Let's see...
Eritrice is definitely a top pick for me. Not just because of her incredibly badass origin story, but also because it's just really nice to have a demigoddess of respectful, reasonable debate and finding greater truth and wisdom through it.
Jaidz is equally high up on my personal list. Being somewhat prone to gutless cowardice, the idea of there being a higher power who knows that you could be better and is devoted to guiding you onto the path to becoming that is certainly a powerful one.
I feel like Picoperi is kind of wasting his potential, though. The bit about him inspiring alchemists and investors is nice, but I feel like they play up the "light-hearted prankster" thing too much.
Picoperi would be a lot more interesting if he could play into more serious aspects and uses of comedy. In a lot of fiction, the character of the fool is used to utter wise but unpleasant truths; real-life comedians often offer very biting commentary on the state of the world around us, couched in jokes so that we can reflect on it without growing depressed or defensive. I'd like Picoperi a lot more if he used his jokes and pranks as a way of reminding his fellows to remain humble, or to satirize foolish actions they undertook to make them realize when they were being too hidebound or too stuck-up or too ANYTHING.
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Ragathiel because he's the embodiment of the burning holy anger that makes evil tremble. The Paladin of Ragathiel who's name is only spoken in hushed whispers.
John Wick as a Paladin...well maybe Inquisitor but you get the point.
Black Butterfly is just too damn cool.
Arshea becasue honestly the world kinda needs an Arshea, and it's definitely one of the most universally attractive art pieces I've seen from Paizo.
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Ragathiel because he's the embodiment of the burning holy anger that makes evil tremble. The Paladin of Ragathiel who's name is only spoken in hushed whispers.
John Wick as a Paladin...well maybe Inquisitor but you get the point.
Black Butterfly is just too damn cool.
Arshea becasue honestly the world kinda needs an Arshea, and it's definitely one of the most universally attractive art pieces I've seen from Paizo.
I definitely like that the Empyreal Lords aren't all a bunch of happy do-gooders, and that some of them are unsettling, some of them are grim and harsh, and some are just plain frightening. It gives a lot more nuance to the good outsiders.
Really, I think the Empyreal Lords are kind of a pantheon in themselves; I really wish they were a more integral part of the setting. Like, it feels like pretty much every community should have some shrines here and there to whatever Empyreal Lords are relevant to their community's interests, maybe with major religious centers having temples devoted to all of them.
Not all of them by name, obviously, because of how many there are; just a temple generically devote to all Empyreal Lords, with small shrines or statues of all the important ones and a blank one like how the Greeks had a temple "to the Unknown God" referring to any gods they didn't know about. At the very least there should be art and murals and stuff in certain buildings, like carved lintels of Winlas on the town hall or something.
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Ragthiel and Dammerich, righteous indignation made manifest.
Arshea and Lymnieris, beauty in your body and sexuality. I also like that Lym is basically the Empyreal Lord of Consent.
I also like (and would to know more about) about;
Forgotten, Freedom Even from Memory (???)
Lorris, the Savior Hound (volunteering)
Neshen, The Knight of the Steel Lash (Repentance, aka redeeming yourself and making up for what you did)
Smiad, the Pitiless Dragonslayer (right up there with Ragi and Dam)
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I've already gone, but a few people mentioned Dammerich. I'm gonna have to say I find his concept really cool. Executioners with their black-hoodeds and big axes always seem to be stigmatized as bad dudes in fantasy RPGs. They have a really crap job and people hate them for it, but in the end someone has to do their duty. Especially in a world of magic users, werewolves, and other essentially super-powered criminals. I really respect the effort on Paizo's part to expand the meaning of good to more cynical or solemn stuff. There's a lot more gray area (and in my opinion, freedom of character) in the alignment system that way.
well.... I was just about to post my fandom for Dammerich.
I think a Dammerich inquisitor, torturer, or executioner would be a really cool concept. A Torquemada for Golarion.
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I've already gone, but a few people mentioned Dammerich. I'm gonna have to say I find his concept really cool. Executioners with their black-hoodeds and big axes always seem to be stigmatized as bad dudes in fantasy RPGs. They have a really crap job and people hate them for it, but in the end someone has to do their duty. Especially in a world of magic users, werewolves, and other essentially super-powered criminals. I really respect the effort on Paizo's part to expand the meaning of good to more cynical or solemn stuff. There's a lot more gray area (and in my opinion, freedom of character) in the alignment system that way.well.... I was just about to post my fandom for Dammerich.
I think a Dammerich inquisitor, torturer, or executioner would be a really cool concept. A Torquemada for Golarion.
Preeeeeeetty sure Dam (especially Dam) would not condone one of his followers using torture.
Vildeis
Immonhiel! Medicinal frog baths every morning for the win!
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Preeeeeeetty sure Dam (especially Dam) would not condone one of his followers using torture.I've already gone, but a few people mentioned Dammerich. I'm gonna have to say I find his concept really cool. Executioners with their black-hoodeds and big axes always seem to be stigmatized as bad dudes in fantasy RPGs. They have a really crap job and people hate them for it, but in the end someone has to do their duty. Especially in a world of magic users, werewolves, and other essentially super-powered criminals. I really respect the effort on Paizo's part to expand the meaning of good to more cynical or solemn stuff. There's a lot more gray area (and in my opinion, freedom of character) in the alignment system that way.well.... I was just about to post my fandom for Dammerich.
I think a Dammerich inquisitor, torturer, or executioner would be a really cool concept. A Torquemada for Golarion.
eh... I dunno why not.
I'm thinking something like the Torturer's Guild from BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. Severian says that the Torturers take no joy in their work. Dunno how a headsman is much different.
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Torture and executions are two VERY different things. Executions are quick and final judgements. Torture is pain, that lasts as long as the torturer wants it to last. Executions can be good/evil/unaligned depending on whose getting executed and the circumstances thereof. Torture is always Evil, whether the torturer enjoys what they're doing has no bearing on that. Dammerich is a Lawful Good Deity.
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Preeeeeeetty sure Dam (especially Dam) would not condone one of his followers using torture.I've already gone, but a few people mentioned Dammerich. I'm gonna have to say I find his concept really cool. Executioners with their black-hoodeds and big axes always seem to be stigmatized as bad dudes in fantasy RPGs. They have a really crap job and people hate them for it, but in the end someone has to do their duty. Especially in a world of magic users, werewolves, and other essentially super-powered criminals. I really respect the effort on Paizo's part to expand the meaning of good to more cynical or solemn stuff. There's a lot more gray area (and in my opinion, freedom of character) in the alignment system that way.well.... I was just about to post my fandom for Dammerich.
I think a Dammerich inquisitor, torturer, or executioner would be a really cool concept. A Torquemada for Golarion.
I'm pretty damn sure you're right. ;)
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Torture and executions are two VERY different things. Executions are quick and final judgements. Torture is pain, that lasts as long as the torturer wants it to last. Executions can be good/evil/unaligned depending on whose getting executed and the circumstances thereof. Torture is always Evil, whether the torturer enjoys what they're doing has no bearing on that. Dammerich is a Lawful Good Deity.
The headsman swings the axe on the command of the judge. as does the gaoler.
In the Torturer's Guild, the Torturer carries out the will of the Autarch.
It's not exceptionally different.
Black Butterfly (I'm a huge Desna mark, so of course I like her "shadow"), Ashava, Pulura, Tolc, and Soralyon.
I would think the through-line with these guys is pretty obvious.
Of course we'd all be more chill if we put a toad on our chest in a relaxing bath.
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Dammerich's very presentation (and I say this as a guy who would choose Dammerich for the OP's question) seems to question whether executions are morally good. He requires that you remember every person you've executed, to acknowledge their existence and (demi)humanity. If it were as simple as "executions are good" then it wouldn't be necessary to keep them in your present awareness, you could forget them as a job well done and move on.
I tend to think that Dammerich's approach is more nuanced than that executions are morally good - I think he says that the moral good is to be the one on whom the community can rely to carry the heavy weight of being its executioner, to sacrifice oneself to that communal need.
Executions are at best morally neutral, but it a good act to make sure that they are being carried out in as just and uncomplicated way as possible. That is why Dammerich exists.
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The headsman swings the axe on the command of the judge. as does the gaoler.
In the Torturer's Guild, the Torturer carries out the will of the Autarch.
It's not exceptionally different.
Ah, yes. "We were just following orders". Truly, the argument of the righteous.
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is the headsman any different?Ah, yes. "We were just following orders". Truly, the argument of the righteous.The headsman swings the axe on the command of the judge. as does the gaoler.
In the Torturer's Guild, the Torturer carries out the will of the Autarch.
It's not exceptionally different.
That's for me to decide, and you to find out.
I'd have to go with Ragathiel, Damerrich, and Arqueros.
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is the headsman any different?Ah, yes. "We were just following orders". Truly, the argument of the righteous.The headsman swings the axe on the command of the judge. as does the gaoler.
In the Torturer's Guild, the Torturer carries out the will of the Autarch.
It's not exceptionally different.
Emphatically so when Dammerich is involved. Dammerich is the empyreal lord of executions, judiciousness and responsibility. If you're a follower of Dammerich, "orders are orders" is never a valid excuse. As laid out in Chronicle of the Righteous:
"Dammerich understands that evil must sometimes be slain, but never lightly, never easily."
"Good people may understand the need for executions but shrink from
the act; Damerrich and his agents help reassure them when executions are appropriate or take the burden of moral guilt upon themselves."
"Corrupt judges and careless executioners rouse the Weighted Swing's ire like nothing else."
"The Weighted Swing does not take pleasure in his grim but necessary task, and those who take the matter of execution too lightly or who sadistically revel in the act may expect retribution from Damerrich's chosen elimination squad of shield archons, Those of the Heaving Hand."
Dammerich demands that you remember every life you've taken if you're to be his follower, and to always be sure that you're going good when you swing the headman's axe. Unneeded cruelty and callous disregard are both anathema to his creed. If you want to play dispassionate torturer who thinks nothing he does is evil just because he's following orders, be a Hellknight or a cleric of Zon-Kuthon or something.
Remember: Dammerich is worshiped by the wrongfully accused who hope he will bring to light the injustice being visited upon them and so save them from a wrongful death, and Dammerich is willing to do exactly that when he can.
Since I missed out on this thread when it was originally posted, here's my answer/list:
Black Butterfly.
Second and third place: Arshea, Pulura.
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is the headsman any different?Ah, yes. "We were just following orders". Truly, the argument of the righteous.The headsman swings the axe on the command of the judge. as does the gaoler.
In the Torturer's Guild, the Torturer carries out the will of the Autarch.
It's not exceptionally different.
Emphatically so when Dammerich is involved. Dammerich is the empyreal lord of executions, judiciousness and responsibility. If you're a follower of Dammerich, "orders are orders" is never a valid excuse. As laid out in Chronicle of the Righteous:
"Dammerich understands that evil must sometimes be slain, but never lightly, never easily."
"Good people may understand the need for executions but shrink from
the act; Damerrich and his agents help reassure them when executions are appropriate or take the burden of moral guilt upon themselves.""Corrupt judges and careless executioners rouse the Weighted Swing's ire like nothing else."
"The Weighted Swing does not take pleasure in his grim but necessary task, and those who take the matter of execution too lightly or who sadistically revel in the act may expect retribution from Damerrich's chosen elimination squad of shield archons, Those of the Heaving Hand."
Dammerich demands that you remember every life you've taken if you're to be his follower, and to always be sure that you're going good when you swing the headman's axe. Unneeded cruelty and callous disregard are both anathema to his creed. If you want to play dispassionate torturer who thinks nothing he does is evil just because he's following orders, be a Hellknight or a cleric of Zon-Kuthon or something.
Remember: Dammerich is worshiped by the wrongfully accused who hope he will bring to light the injustice being visited upon them and so save them from a wrongful death, and Dammerich is willing to do exactly that when he can.
Which is all a perfect description of Lawful Neutral.