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Scenario: A level 1 rogue uses coup-de-grace on a target within a cloud of smoke. This target would normally have concealment, if they were conscious.
Question: Which of the below scenarios is used?
A: The rogue does not need to roll a miss chance, and gains sneak attack.
Justification: According to the coup de grace rules (below), all that is needed against a target with Total Concealment is to spend two full-rounds locating the target, it doesn't look like a miss chance is rolled. There is no special rule for Concealment, so my initial belief is that you ignore the miss chance as well (coup de grace auto-hits, only need to spend extra time if Total Concealment, not regular).
As we aren't treating the body with concealment, sneak attack is also used.
B: The rogue does not need to roll a miss chance, does not gain sneak attack.
Justification: Similar to the above, except the target is still within an area that *would* provide concealment. As such, sneak attacks shouldn't be possible. A bit less justified by the rules, but still a possibility.
C: The rogue needs to roll a miss chance, does not gain sneak attack.
Justification: The rules for coup de grace do say you automatically hit, so this one has the least justification. Still, perhaps because there isn't anything that calls out 'concealment does not apply', perhaps it still applies. This means coup de grace vs. total concealment would take two full round actions AND a 50% miss chance... but I digress.
Coup de Grace:
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
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Unfortunately for the player in question, I'm *leaning* towards A. I am open to argument though, so let me know what you think.
Nice one boss.
Definitely don't need two full-round actions, as you don't need to "find" the target. Random GM fiat could make that an active perception check (move action) in regular concealment.
I don't see a miss chance being rolled under any circumstances, as it expressly says you automatically hit/crit.
Most of the reasoning behind losing sneak attack from concealment goes away if the target is helpless. But I sort of feel that you've already eaten up the "he's immobile so let's make this really count" 'juice' you get from going to full-round coup-de-grace from standard-action attack, going to auto-crit + sneak.
Rules-wise: (A)
Fair-wise: (B) or full + move to negate concealment.
Concealment in general is not well-defined in Pathfinder, though some specific situations in which concealment applies are well-defined. I would say that even a helpless target can have concealment in a cloud of smoke for the same reason that I would say that a helpless target would have concealment in pitch blackness--the target being helpless does not negate the fact that the attacker can't see it.
So I'm leaning toward B. A coup de grâce is not precision damage; it's putting all of one's effort into a full-powered blow against a helpless target. You can do this even when the target has total concealment provided you spend the time to locate the creature, but that doesn't mean you can perceive it well enough to target its vital areas in the specialized manner required by sneak attack and most other precision damage.
Is the target helpless (i.e. unconsciousness or under another effect that completely removes AC)?
If not, then a coup de grace cannot be delivered.
The second sentence in the OP generally implies that the target is unconscious.
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Is the target helpless (i.e. unconsciousness or under another effect that completely removes AC)?
If not, then a coup de grace cannot be delivered.
Sorry for not clarifying, yes, the character in question is unconscious.
I agree with Majuba. Rules-wise, seems like A is the way to go, at least when it comes to the rules as is. The coup de grace "automatically hits", so concealment is not a factor. Time is only increased with Total Concealment. Sneak Attack is unusable with Concealment.
The question I'm narrowing it down to is:
1. Since the coup de grace is an automatic hit, there is no concealment, thus sneak attack.
OR
2. The coup de grace acts as if you rolled a success on the concealment, it still exists, thus no sneak attack.
I would rule that you do not gain the sneak attack bonus. As written, one needs to "find" the body that benefits from total concealment. This shows that they still gain that benefit.
I believe that the body in your example is still under some benefit, even if not the 20% miss chance of concealment.
I have come to this conclusion because of cover. How would you apply cover to this same scenario? I am sure we agree that the hit would still be automatic, ignoring the +4 bonus to AC, but what would you do about the sneak attack?
I would rule that sneak attack still is not possible, and likewise would use the same logic to concealment.
So, my ruling would mean that the benefits to armor class/miss chance are both negated, but not all of the benefits of being under cover or concealment.
This, of course, is just my interpretation.
#2. seems pretty reasonable way of interpreting it KK.
Komoda - cover doesn't prevent sneak attack, it prevents AoO's. Still a good point - just because something doesn't actually matter doesn't mean it's not there... Like an archer with Snapshot and Improved Precise Shot still doesn't get AoO's from targets with cover.
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I ended up ruling B. In the end, I'm completely torn between A and B. C definitely doesn't fit, coup de grace says 'automatic hit'. That includes concealment, as far as I'm concerned, and makes sense. Person is motionless on the ground, a little smoke isn't going to stop a killing blow.
However, B makes sense in that 'auto hit' could be seen as the percentile roll for concealment succeeding automatically. The concealment is still present. So sneak attack wouldn't be possible.
In the end, given a tie between these two, I'm more inclined to give the players this one. They've fought a hard battle, and the player may still die next round anyhow. Guess we'll find out. :D
Whoops! So that part of my argument is null and void. That's what I get for posting right after I wake up.
But yeah, what Majuba said.
Scenario: A level 1 rogue uses coup-de-grace on a target within a cloud of smoke. This target would normally have concealment, if they were conscious.
Question: Which of the below scenarios is used?
A: The rogue does not need to roll a miss chance, and gains sneak attack.
Justification: According to the coup de grace rules (below), all that is needed against a target with Total Concealment is to spend two full-rounds locating the target, it doesn't look like a miss chance is rolled. There is no special rule for Concealment, so my initial belief is that you ignore the miss chance as well (coup de grace auto-hits, only need to spend extra time if Total Concealment, not regular).As we aren't treating the body with concealment, sneak attack is also used.
B: The rogue does not need to roll a miss chance, does not gain sneak attack.
Justification: Similar to the above, except the target is still within an area that *would* provide concealment. As such, sneak attacks shouldn't be possible. A bit less justified by the rules, but still a possibility.C: The rogue needs to roll a miss chance, does not gain sneak attack.
Justification: The rules for coup de grace do say you automatically hit, so this one has the least justification. Still, perhaps because there isn't anything that calls out 'concealment does not apply', perhaps it still applies. This means coup de grace vs. total concealment would take two full round actions AND a 50% miss chance... but I digress.Coup de Grace:***quote omitted***...
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Note bold text.
/cevah
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The text was noted in my initial call, though I didn't really specify it as you did. :) The question came up with the interaction between it and concealment (which rogues normally can't sneak attack into). One rule says it works, the other says it doesn't. Hence the discussion.
In any event, this was for an online game, I went with B, and moved along. Was it right or not? Who knows. On with the game!
The text was noted in my initial call, though I didn't really specify it as you did. :) The question came up with the interaction between it and concealment (which rogues normally can't sneak attack into). One rule says it works, the other says it doesn't. Hence the discussion.
In any event, this was for an online game, I went with B, and moved along. Was it right or not? Who knows. On with the game!
The rules in Coup de Grace specifically deal with Sneak Attack and with Concealment. Specific trumps general. As for going with B, that is GM Fiat, and who knows? Maybe the rogue's crit roll was two less and the rogue's sneak attack roll was for two. That would balance the damage, causing no apparent effect.
/cevah
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Sorry for not clarifying, yes, the character in question is unconscious.
I agree with Majuba. Rules-wise, seems like A is the way to go, at least when it comes to the rules as is. The coup de grace "automatically hits", so concealment is not a factor. Time is only increased with Total Concealment. Sneak Attack is unusable with Concealment.
The question I'm narrowing it down to is:
1. Since the coup de grace is an automatic hit, there is no concealment, thus sneak attack.
OR
2. The coup de grace acts as if you rolled a success on the concealment, it still exists, thus no sneak attack.
Oof, sorry, I somehow didn't catch that! (This is what I get for reading the forums while at work...)
If I were GM, I would have allowed the coup de grace, but only if the group could handle it. It's not very pleasant, but I don't see any way around it. You know your group best, so you probably made the right decision.
I pulled something similar on my group -- an assassin snuck into the wizard's room around midnight while he was asleep and performed a coup de grace. However, the damage wasn't enough to outright kill him (surprisingly), so the assassin managed to escape and live long enough for the PCs to screw up the remainder of his plans.
If you go through with the coup de grace next time, you'll establish a pretty virulent bad guy -- make sure to give your players a chance to get sweet revenge. :)
I see no reason that the rogue can't get sneak attack since there are specific rules under the Coup De Grace text to locate a creature with total concealment and rogues get their sneak attack on a coup de grace. Specific trumps general here.
From the dramatic perspective, this likely represents feeling around to locate the critical spot to stab. The target is helpless to stop this after all... so it takes two consecutive full round actions.
Coup De Grace has been a point of contention for my group. Particularly the near unmakeable saving throw attached. Usually getting a creature to be helpless can be a bit tough, but when you have an optimized Witch in the group who relies heavily on the Slumber Hex, this can be a real pain.
This is one of the areas where we had to go outside RAW. The martials in that group were carrying around military picks for the x4 crit multiplier just so they could more effectively brain sleeping targets. The fort saves were impossible. So the save-or-die effect had to go. They still got their free crit, but that was it.
I see no reason that the rogue can't get sneak attack since there are specific rules under the Coup De Grace text to locate a creature with total concealment and rogues get their sneak attack on a coup de grace. Specific trumps general here.
From the dramatic perspective, this likely represents feeling around to locate the critical spot to stab. The target is helpless to stop this after all... so it takes two consecutive full round actions.
Yeah, I'm with Lord Malkov here. It would be A. The extra time involved when performing a CdG vs a helpless opponent is meant to represent using touch to locate the opponent and then find the a vulnerable spot on their body to plunge your weapon into. So, for example, a rogue with a dagger in a smoke cloud uses his hand to locate the victim, then finds the victims throat, places his dagger against it and cuts away. No to hit roll or concealment roll needed. Since the rules specify a CdG always includes sneak attack damage, that would be rolled as well.
Coup De Grace has been a point of contention for my group. Particularly the near unmakeable saving throw attached. Usually getting a creature to be helpless can be a bit tough, but when you have an optimized Witch in the group who relies heavily on the Slumber Hex, this can be a real pain.
This is one of the areas where we had to go outside RAW. The martials in that group were carrying around military picks for the x4 crit multiplier just so they could more effectively brain sleeping targets. The fort saves were impossible. So the save-or-die effect had to go. They still got their free crit, but that was it.
Well, that's the whole point of the CdG maneuver. It's not meant to be survivable except in really lucky circumstances.
I would say PCs carrying around picks just for the sake of CdGs is pretty cheesy, though.
Cheesy? I'd be shocked if there wasn't historical precedence for a warrior or soldier carrying a special weapon specifically for finishing fallen foes with a minimum of fuss.