The Preamble:
For PFS, I made/played an alchemist. As Disable Device is a class skill for the alchemist and as one is not always guaranteed a rogue at any given table, I invested max ranks in Disable Device, took Skill Focus (Disable Device) and purchased some masterwork thieves' tools. Without trapfinding, I didn't just want to increase my odds of failing by more than 4.
So along comes a PFS scenario in which I play with someone who brought a rogue. A trap was found. The rogue went to attempt to disable it. I offered to Aid Another. I'm lvl 3 by this point. Too late to respec by the PFS rule which allows a rebuild prior to playing lvl 2.
The Crux of the matter:
Only to be informed by the player of the rogue that without the trap-finding class feature, one cannot attempt to disable a trap with a DC greater than 10. The GM promptly confirmed this. That was that.
The Questions:
1. Really!?
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
DISABLE DEVICE
[my italics] You are skilled at disarming traps...
... Difficult... DC 20... Disarm a trap...
... Extreme... DC 25... Disarm a complex trap...
...
Special:... A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it without disarming it....
Restrictions: Characters with the trapfinding ability (like rogues) can disarm magic traps...
Characters trained in disable device without the trapfinding ability (like alchemists) can suck it because those characters can only disable traps with a DC of 10 or less while the difficulty to disarm a trap starts at 20.
The facetiousness of that last quote aside, can someone explain where that rogue player and GM got that? I remember the rogue player (sorry, player of the rogue. Not the same thing.) stating he saw it confirmed somewhere official-sounding but I did not catch where. Anyone?
I understand that as per above, my alchemist without trapfinding cannot (1) add 1/2 his level to perception and disarm device, (2) disarm magic traps and (3) bypass or rig a trap even if he exceeds the DC by 10 or more. The most he could hope for is to just disarm the trap. I'm totally okay with that. But only being able to disarm (non-existent) traps of DC 10 or less? Help?
Thanks! [edit - page references]
Please note that in order to Aid Another you only need to get a DC 10 anyway... Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, which I couldn't have failed. While I could have easily failed the trap DC, I could also have easily added +2 to the rogue's attempt. Maybe he felt I was trying to steal his thunder, dunno. Anywho. Maybe it was a magical trap but I don't think so. Can't remember what the trap was, oddly. Only the odd exclusion from even being able to help because the base trap DC was > 10. Thanks all for confirming I'm not going crazy. Or at least crazier. :D
They're wrong. Trapfinding is a horribly over valued ability that does not do what people think it does.
Wait, was it a magic trap?
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They were wrong even if it was a magical trap.
Normal (non-magical) trap: Anyone with even just ONE rank in Disable Device can attempt to disable all normal traps regardless of DC. Trapfinding adds a bonus to the roll.
Magical trap: Nobody can attempt to disable any magical trap, regardless of DC, unless they have Trapfinding. Trapfinding is mandatory and it adds a bonus to the roll.
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Chiming in to agree that, if the scenario played out exactly like this, then the GM and the player were both incorrect.
Trapfinding does two things: 1) It grants you a bonus to spot traps using Perception and to disable them; 2) It grants you the ability to attempt to disable magical traps using Disable Device.
Non-magical and magical traps can be spotted by anyone who can beat the Perception DC. Non-magical traps can be disabled by anyone who can beat the trap's disable DC.
Now, there was a a rule in - was it 3.0 or 3.5? - that if the DC to spot a trap using Search was higher than 20, only someone with Trapfinding could spot the trap, but I don't see any such restriction for Disable Device. I'm thinking they either were shoe-horning in a house rule, or they misunderstood the section about someone with Trapfinding being able to disable without disarming.
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This:
They were wrong even if it was a magical trap.
Normal (non-magical) trap: Anyone with even just ONE rank in Disable Device can attempt to disable all normal traps regardless of DC. Trapfinding adds a bonus to the roll.
Magical trap: Nobody can attempt to disable any magical trap, regardless of DC, unless they have Trapfinding. Trapfinding is mandatory and it adds a bonus to the roll.
So with Trapfinding you get (1) add 1/2 class level to perception and disarm device, (2) disarm magic traps. That’s it.
Without Trapfinding you can disable non-magical traps.
Without Trapfinding you can kind find traps. You can even find magical traps.
Notice however that you can’t use Disable Device untrained so you can’t use Aid Another with Disable Device if you are untrained. You got to have at least one rank in Disable Device to use Aid Another.
BTW, I agree with BigNorseWolf:“Trapfinding is a horribly over valued ability that does not do what people think it does.”
Zark, if you do not possess trapfinding you cannot use Perception on all magic traps. Specific spell traps require trapfinding to find. Examples: Snare and Spike Growth.
But, all non-spell magic traps and most spell magic traps can be found using Perception without having Trapfinding.
- Gauss
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Zark, if you do not possess trapfinding you cannot use Perception on all magic traps. Specific spell traps require trapfinding to find. Examples: Snare and Spike Growth.
But, all non-spell magic traps and most spell magic traps can be found using Perception without having Trapfinding.
- Gauss
Those are just copy pasting errors from 3.5.
They were wrong even if it was a magical trap.
Normal (non-magical) trap: Anyone with even just ONE rank in Disable Device can attempt to disable all normal traps regardless of DC. Trapfinding adds a bonus to the roll.
Magical trap: Nobody can attempt to disable any magical trap, regardless of DC, unless they have Trapfinding. Trapfinding is mandatory and it adds a bonus to the roll.
*headscratch*
I'm confused as to how the first sentence meshes with the third.
You have to be able to do the thing yourself in order to assist, so if you can't disable magical traps you can't disable magical traps.
BigNorseWolf, they might be copy/paste errors but until an errata is issued to correct them they are still part of the rules for those spells.
As currently written you do not need Trapfinding to find a magic trap except for those spells that state you do.
- Gauss
It is pretty obviously a copy/paste errors. During the beta test and after the release the Devs were open with how the trap-spotter / trap-disabler rules were changed.
BigNorseWolf, they might be copy/paste errors but until an errata is issued to correct them they are still part of the rules for those spells.
As currently written you do not need Trapfinding to find a magic trap except for those spells that state you do.
- Gauss
Unfortunately true. I suggest making one of those "All FAQ here" threads to push for official errata.
BigNorseWolf, they might be copy/paste errors but until an errata is issued to correct them they are still part of the rules for those spells.
As currently written you do not need Trapfinding to find a magic trap except for those spells that state you do.
- Gauss
Not really. The snare states that it is "a DC 23 Perception check for a character with the trapfinding ability to locate"
It does not state what the DC is for someone without trapfinding to find it is. Nor does it say that it can only be found by a pc with trapfinding.
Hey, if raw is all that matters, it can matter in the players favor.