Goblin Squad Member
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It sorta was, but not completely...
If they make it cartoony, then hopefully it doesnt look like NWN2. would have been a better way to say it.
Not that they would do that, already looks better... It just sucked waiting for NWN2 to come out, have it preordered, install, play for 10 minutes, uninstall, throw game across room...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will arrow attacks require aiming? Looking for more mobility then that.
(Hopefully we stay away from Darkfalls horrible combat system)
In addition to the quotes AvenaOats provided, there's another that really puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that combat in PFO will be like DarkFall:
The target/ability bar has really been done to death and i think a lot of people are looking for a new feel.I don't disagree with that. I think there's a huge design space to be explored. We just won't be exploring the one where you aim with player skill and twitch in response to stimuli.
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Is the view of the game going to stay First Person? Hoping for 3rd person or overhead for stealth and perception play.
What Im considering in my mind is not being able to assess a battlefield.
This is really important to me, too. In DarkFall, the restricted third-person view really reduces my ability to be aware of my surroundings. While harvesting I'm forced to stare right at the object I'm trying to harvest. When running on foot, I am unable to turn my head left or right without also changing the direction I'm running. I understand that some of that is due to their desire to make a "hardcore" and "realistic" game, but I think the majority of it is actually motivated by a desire to produce a certain emotional response and a sense of near helplessness in the players.
I've made this point a number of times, but I would much rather be able to scroll out and get a better view of my surroundings even if there are lots of things that the game determines I can't see so it doesn't render them or even inform my client of them. As others have pointed out, there are a host of senses we have in the real world that help us maintain a sense of our surroundings, and until MMOs are able to simulate all of those, they really need to let us make full use of our eyes to compensate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That screenshot is not 1st person. The collider logic on the ogres isn't correct yet, and they're basically standing on top of my character.
Yeah, it looked a bit off lol. I thought they were merged with you but its hard to tell for sure.
Will you be allowing the game to zoom out more from there?
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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@Xeen:
You can presently zoom in to first person (but without a full suite of FPS hand/weapon animations; first person is an option but not our focus) and zoom out really far in third person (one of the playtesters briefly tried creating an RTS-style view by zooming all the way out and pointing the camera down at his avatar and the ground; you could probably see about ten to twenty feet around the avatar). I expect we might limit that in the future based on aesthetics and rendering, but the current plan is a reasonable "can see your whole avatar and a good amount of space around and behind you" rather than "so close your avatar's head is in the way but you still don't get much peripheral vision."
The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows. As long as the target is in range and line of sight, you should be able to hit it whether or not you've maneuvered your character to the right direction. We don't particularly want to encourage people to circle-strafe in PvP.
@Areks:
The ogres in the screenshot are the same model.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows. As long as the target is in range and line of sight, you should be able to hit it whether or not you've maneuvered your character to the right direction. We don't particularly want to encourage people to circle-strafe in PvP.
That is very good info.
I'm fairly sure Ogres would be looking down on our characters too on even ground!? I like the scale difference between them and the minuscule by comparison goblin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect we might limit that in the future based on aesthetics and rendering, but the current plan is a reasonable "can see your whole avatar and a good amount of space around and behind you" rather than "so close your avatar's head is in the way but you still don't get much peripheral vision."
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is about the way I play - I get very itchy in first-person as I'm missing all the non-visual cues, and this makes up for that lack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen:
You can presently zoom in to first person (but without a full suite of FPS hand/weapon animations; first person is an option but not our focus) and zoom out really far in third person (one of the playtesters briefly tried creating an RTS-style view by zooming all the way out and pointing the camera down at his avatar and the ground; you could probably see about ten to twenty feet around the avatar). I expect we might limit that in the future based on aesthetics and rendering, but the current plan is a reasonable "can see your whole avatar and a good amount of space around and behind you" rather than "so close your avatar's head is in the way but you still don't get much peripheral vision."
The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows. As long as the target is in range and line of sight, you should be able to hit it whether or not you've maneuvered your character to the right direction. We don't particularly want to encourage people to circle-strafe in PvP.
@Areks:
The ogres in the screenshot are the same model.
Awesome to hear
I like the over head view as well. Would be cool to have that over head view, to Command the field of battle and still see far enough to shoot max range with a bow. Im thinking of the Eve style of overview and perspective.
As an old FC for Eve, it is helpful to have that view of the battlefield.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the current plan is a reasonable "can see your whole avatar and a good amount of space around and behind you"
Excellent!
Any word on whether we'll be able to turn left and right with the keyboard? The Environment Experience only let the keyboard strafe left and right. It's very frustrating when I'm auto-running and want to take a sip of coffee, but can't steer with my left hand :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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(bold added)The current plan is that you'll auto-turn to face your target upon initiating an attack, including with bows. As long as the target is in range and line of sight, you should be able to hit it whether or not you've maneuvered your character to the right direction. We don't particularly want to encourage people to circle-strafe in PvP.
This makes a lot of sense to me considering Pathfinder attacks of opportunity and what goes on with flanking.
Also, I'm not a teenager anymore and I'm not particularly interested in compensating for mouse turns or expending the energy to twitch dance in PvP rather than match abilities and tactics. Something will have to go horribly wrong with this plan in EE for me to stop being enthusiastically supportive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope the monsters and NPC's follow the same general combat rules as the players will be. For instance, if that Ogre was to knock someone back that it would be with a successful Bull Rush attempt, not just because it was an Ogre.
Fine by me. I have no problem giving monsters the same potential abilities as players earn with skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I understand some of the reasons that devs often don't make NPCs operate under the same system that PCs use. The system for PCs has to be really versatile to allow players to develop their characters according to their own desires. NPCs really only ever need to do what the devs want them to do. Also, it can be incredibly difficult to write an AI that can make effective use of the skills that were developed for PCs rather than just directly coding the desired actions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd prefer mobs to be much harder than they usually are. Once you get complacent with a mob it loses it's magic imho. A dangerous creature should always be dangerous.
The damage shown in the screenshot looks promising in this regards.
Blue bar = stamina. Since it's full we can assume Ryan wasn't attacking and therefore it was damage done to him.
With 2 ogres and 1 goblin attacking him and damages of 124, 128 and 64 on the screen it's probably safe to assume that the ogres did the 124 and 128 while the goblin did 64.
By comparison a beginner longsword (stats given in an old blog) has a base damage of 40 and damage factor of 1.4. Against a naked opponent a full hit (ie. maximum damage) does 56 damage. Resistance and saves only reduce that number. So even if that 64 is the goblin's full damage on that hit it's still more than a beginner longsword can do. The little guy is punching above his weight!
As for the ogres ... the 128 isn't even a full hit. 124 is 97% of 128 and in the combat system a partial hit is at least 5% lower in damage than a full hit. So both 124 and 128 can't be full hits.
Now, given that a beginner PC is supposed to have ~400 hp and Ryan's character is about half dead after taking 316 damage (possibly more that has fallen off the screen), it's pretty clear that's his character isn't some newbie fighter. I'd ballpark him at around level 4 based on example stats we've seen. So as a level 4 he likely has better resistance than a beginner, meaning that 124 and 128 would be higher for a newbie fighter.
I'll try to rum some scripts to see what damages get rounded to 124 and 128 depending on rolls to ballpark what the ogres' full hit would be. Regardless, it seems like it must be 135+ (against Ryan's armor), which means that a new character with 400 hp would be 3-shotted by one of these ogres even in Ryan's armor. Cloth armor makes that closer to a 2-shot.
A brand new character likely wouldn't survive the pictured encounter long enough to even take a screenshot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can make the numbers dance, Nightdrifter. Thank you for this further insight. I wonder if those numbers were "placed" at the scene of the crime for such detectives as you to find?
That does match up with what Lisa said about a few hits from Ogres and lights-out. Also it would appear to agree with a possible inference:
If GW want PvE and monster-hunting to be a social and specialist activity, then doing the ratios of power where 1 mob of say an Orc is indeed a formidable being to take on, then 1:3 or 4 ratio of power to indicate you'd ideally need a group to work with to take down these mobs? Possibly Ogres would be even more fearsome.
I need to read that post some more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Looks like 138 is the minimum full hit that would produce 124 and 128 as partial hits (assuming all extra digits are cut off such as when converting a float to an int).
Based on this it's possible to figure out how hard an ogre would full hit any given character.
For a given damage factor for the ogre and a given resistance of your armor (relative to whatever Ryan is wearing) the result looks like this:
Negative on horizontal axis means your physical resistance is lower than his. Since his PC is ballpark level 4, likely in heavy armor, that means his physical resistance is ballpark of 36. If so, then 0 on that axis means 36 physical resistance, -10 means 26 physical resistance. However, the plot still works even if his resistance isn't exactly 36.
Bear in mind that for equal defense bonus to the ogre's attack bonus the values in the plot are reduced by about 15% on average. So the average damage you'd take (with equal skills to the ogre) is 85% of the above.
Finally, I should point out that 138 was just the minimum. 143, 145, 146, etc. full hits on Ryan's armor also produce the numbers on Ryan's screenshot.
Very short version of the above: it's going to be a while before anyone solos an ogre. Heck, it may even take a bit to solo the goblin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This would make an interesting twist, having PvE content require grouping from the get-go and offer worthwhile rewards even at low levels. Certainly far different than many MMO's I've seen. Most times the low level rewards for regular PvE combat are laughable, worthy of nothing except selling to a vendor, and the low level PvE enemies can be solo'ed in your sleep.
If fighting even a couple goblins is too much for one lowly character, and characters don't scale rapidly in power like other MMO's, then I think they could really improve your rewards for killing basic things like goblins. Would lead to a more shallow gap when comparing your average high level and low level character's earnings for a period of time, and thus mean that low level characters can contribute to a company/nation meaningfully by PvE'ing, rather than grinding gathering for other people's crafting or any other task they don't want to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very short version of the above: it's going to be a while before anyone solos an ogre. Heck, it may even take a bit to solo the goblin.
This is good.
Looking at the muscle mass on those Ogres they're verging treetrunk thickness hence physical damage should be very very high if you'd compare that sort of physique to any given character if the visuals are mapping onto the stats with high fidelity. :)
The Goblin I wonder what the difference is with this. No doubt more numerous and more of them in groups I'd suspect is one component, perhaps PvE in breaking them up would be a sort of tactic or at least not being singled-out yourself. Additionally you'd expect them to be much more physically weaker than an Ogre but "hardy" in a sort of wiry way nonetheless and probably a good deal faster reflexes (less stamina used? dodge passive ability?)?
I meant monetary rewards. I'm thinking of WoW primarily, where you won't see a single gold piece on your first character until lower-mid levels, and at max level you throw around thousands of gold at a time.
I can't remember the full in's and out's GW have mentioned if you get a wee bit of coin from mobs. But I think mainly you're going to kill a mob because it's a danger, it's stopping you resource-collecting or travelling or it actually has some materials such as leathery skin etc that you can then sell on, or indeed you are being contracted to go "clear the goblin infestation" which is slowing down production or could snowball (goblinball) out of all control? I think it's more indirect reward in that respect. And possibly the odd feat completion as well. I can't remember how much goodies you'll be able to corpse-rob?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That screenshot is not 1st person. The collider logic on the ogres isn't correct yet, and they're basically standing on top of my character.
This may be why the goblin is hitting so hard.
Essentially Ryan's character is flanked. It may be the case that the goblin is getting in some sneak attack damage to get that 64. I doubt ogres get sneak attack though, what with being brutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't remember the full in's and out's GW have mentioned if you get a wee bit of coin from mobs.
There will certainly be coin drops from mobs.
PvE content is not merely an add-on tacked to the side of a whole different kind of game; it's a critical part of the overall sandbox. PvE can be envisioned as a resource faucet: stuff comes into the game via PvE. Sometimes that stuff may be gold coins in the form of treasure, bounties or rewards. Sometimes it may be gear looted from dead opponents. And sometimes it may be harvestable resources used in crafting goods.
There are also some neat graphics in that blog.
Of course, they went on to clarify that mobs won't really drop gear.
The vast majority of gear in Pathfinder Online is player-crafted.
I believe there's an even more recent quote from one of the devs where they flat out say mobs won't drop gear, but I can't find it right now.
NPC opponents & monsters will often drop harvestable resources. They're walking nodes with arms and armor.
That's cool. I'd like to see realistic drops too, so like if you kill an ogre holding a big club, he drops the club (instead of the club somehow magically disappearing).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will ogres (or mobs in general) drop money with which to purchase said stuff? Is money considered a harvestable resource?
Creature rewards are primarily crafting components, and we've been trying very hard to keep them things that make sense for the creature that generates them. Any non-component items that drop off of creatures will always follow the agenda of making the crafting system cooler or providing something it doesn't, rather than supplanting crafting.
There is no vendor trash. If treasure is meant to be financial, we presently expect that it will be in the form of coin, rather than something that has no purpose other than being turned into coin at an NPC.
Admittedly, that loses us some illusionism. For example, if you get a bunch of coin off an animal, hopefully you'll think, "I found easily fungible but crafting-unsuitable trade goods," rather than, "Why did this animal have a stack of gold pieces?" Our coins are somewhat of an abstraction anyway, and may very well represent more than just metal currency. I am curious whether that'll be jarring for enough people that a demand for some kind of intermediary step that explains why a dead monster turns into currency will ultimately be demanded :) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will ogres (or mobs in general) drop money with which to purchase said stuff? Is money considered a harvestable resource?
PvE content is not merely an add-on tacked to the side of a whole different kind of game; it's a critical part of the overall sandbox. PvE can be envisioned as a resource faucet: stuff comes into the game via PvE. Sometimes that stuff may be gold coins in the form of treasure, bounties or rewards. Sometimes it may be gear looted from dead opponents. And sometimes it may be harvestable resources used in crafting goods.
As I understand it, PvE content is the source of Coin.
If you look at the Settlement Economic System graphic from that blog, you'll see that PvE & Battlefield Combat is the primary source of Coin. I believe all the other Coin in the system is just this Coin moving around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They won't drop clubs.
I'm actually a big fan of the sole source of gear being crafters but I actually really would like to see when I kill an ogre him drop tattered ogre armor and a busted ogre mauler which is essentially useless except for salvaging. Perhaps at a later date some of this gear could be repaired or refitted for players to use by a crafter of the appropriate type.
Just like it doesn't make sense for a bear to drop coins it doesn't make sense for me to fight a hellknight NPC clad in full plate and dual wielding a bastard sword and cat-o'-nine-tails and have nothing of them to be left after he dies. It makes perfect sense that in the process of killing him they'll get torn up though.
I mean, it's not a huge deal, but with a salvage system already confirmed would it take that much to implement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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i will not play if there is no armor or weapon or jewlery loot
There will not be "Loot Piñatas":
Piling up junk
The issues with accumulations of junk largely happen for two reasons:
- The stuff that is dropped is not itself randomly customized, and therefore has zero value.
- The flow of “getting something, evaluating whether you want it, and then discarding it” leaves the item in a place where it’s harder to garbage collect it. (For example, pushing players to “get all” and sort it out later means that you’re more likely to end up with junk laying around than if you force players to pick and choose what they take from the corpse, then decay the corpse and all contents afterwards).
Also worth thinking about:
The item economy is so bad that essentially all items of white, blue, and green quality are junk items. There is a “sell junk” button that lets you sell all items that have no game use. If this button sold all white, blue, and green quality items (which was all the items I encountered up to L64) with one click, this would have been more useful. The only items I encountered as loot that were not junk were those related to craft activity.
Thus the item economy would have been improved if all players automatically got free gear upgrades every 5 or 10 levels and all of those white, blue, and green junk items were just never itemized as loot at all. Any excitement the player feels about loot drops very quickly fades in such an environment, and it all just becomes a pointless loot gathering exercise. In other words, the item economy would have been better if it had been removed.