Sword lord vs Lore Warden

[STR Ranger]

Hi.

I am looking to build a 'Roguish' Duelist for a buddy. Starting at level 10.

He definitely wants to go Duelist. Like a Ignigo Montoya char.

Best option I can think of
2 level of MoMS/Monk of Sacred Mountain

For- Human F- Dodge
Toughness
IUS
2x Style Feats (probably Crane Style,Kirin Style)
+1 Natural Armor

Then 7 levels of Lore Warden for skills and the nice bonuses to Maneuvers.
With Combat Exp for free.

The rest of the levels would be all deulist.

I haven't got a solid idea beyond that and I would rather not take the monk levels but it does offer alot for 2 levels.

Str 13 (just for PA)
Dex 13+2Human (bump to 16 at 4)
Con 14
Int 15 (bump to 16 at level 8)
Wis 14
Cha 7

On the right track?

Since Precise Strike is multiplied on a crit either Rapier or Scimitar sounds good

[lemeres]

The suggestion of swordlord looks nice for other numbers though. With the idea of going monk2/fighter7/duelistx, swordlord would eliminate the remaining penalties for fighting defensively as well as add a couple more AC. Of course, a lot of the traded away abilities are devoted to aldori dueling swords, which is another feat in an already feat starved path.

Some more discussion on your feat plan might help us understand how you are approaching your role as a melee combatant.

Also, which style do you want to focus on? I ask since styles can be rather intensive investments, and kirin style in particular can work poorly with other styles since it uses the same swift action used to set up styles. Thus, it might take until the 3rd turn to really get your momentum, and by then the fight is practically over most of the time.

[STR Ranger]

1H- Dodge, Crane Style, IUS
2- Crane Wing, Toughness
Lore Warden levels
3- B- Weapon Finesse, Mobility
4- Combat Expertise, Dervish Dance
5- Maneuver Mastery +2,Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
6- Weapon Training
7- Improved Trip
8-
9- Know thy Enemy ,Crane Riposte

AFTER THIS ALL Duelist.

With gear he is looking at 18 Dex and Int at level 10.

AC is 10+6 (Mithral Breastplate)+4 (Dex)+1 (int)+2 (ring)+3 (bonus AC+2 Amulet)+5 (fight defensive, Crane, dodge)=31 at level 10.

[XMorsX]

Check this pretty similar Duelist build that combines snake and Crane style. I am using Weaponmaster fighter though because the maneuver bonus that lore warden gives goes to waste. Also I don't go for MotSM, I believe that Evasion is better than Toughness for a Dex based fighter. It was made for a Halfling. TWF for using your off-hand unarmed strike to parry (you can use it like this in combination with Dervish dance right?).

1 Fighter Weapon Finesse, Dodge
2 Fighter Dervish Dance
3 MoMS Snake Style, Snake Fang
4 Fighter
5 Fighter Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Mobility
6 Fighter
7 Fighter Crane Style, Crane Wing
8 Duelist
9 Duelist Underfoot
10 Duelist
11 Duelist Crane Riposte, Combat Reflexes
12 Duelist
13 Duelist Critical Focus
14 Duelist
15 Duelist Staggering Critical
16 Duelist Deflect Arrows
17 Duelist Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter
19 Fighter Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization
20 Fighter Iron Will

[nate lange]

crane wing/riposte makes parry and riposte from Duelist moot...

numbers-wise, a dervish dance build will be your best bet (though, then you're using a scimitar instead of a rapier).

are you asking for something interesting/unique, or for something optimized? most of the answer seem to assume the later... if that's the case, i think you might actually be better off going magus with the kensai archetype: they get canny defense starting at 1st level and though they don't get precise strike they do have all kinds of spells to up their damage and can get a bonus attack basically every time the full attack, if they want to; and you could still take a 2 level MoMs dip to gain Wis to AC and crane feats. the only downside is that you will be a little feat starved.

if casting doesn't suit his concept, any of the other builds here look fine. if you're making his guy cause he's new to the game don't overwhelm him with options: just do lorewarden 7/duelist X or even a regular fighter... that would open up using a mithril breastplate (+6 max Dex with Armor Training 1) with canny defense- fighter 6/duelist X

[XMorsX]

Nice advise nate lange. You can use parry-riposte with crane style, can you? Not for the first incoming attack of course, but for the second. The crane wing requires no action and parry an immediate action.
For a Human Lore Warden duelist you could go like this:

1 Fighter Weapon Finesse, Dodge
2 Fighter Dervish Dance, Combat Expertise
3 MoMS Snake Style, Snake Fang
4 Fighter
5 Fighter Improved Trip, Mobility
6 Fighter
7 Fighter Crane Style, Crane Wing
8 Duelist
9 Duelist Greater Trip
10 Duelist
11 Duelist Crane Riposte, Combat Reflexes
12 Duelist
13 Duelist Critical Focus
14 Duelist
15 Duelist Staggering Critical
16 Duelist Deflect Arrows
17 Duelist Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter
19 Fighter Improved Initiative, Blind Fight
20 Fighter Moonlight Stalker

It would be nice to put somewhere Fury's Fall too, but I cannot find place early game and I don't believe that it is worth it later in the game.

[lemeres]

nate lange wrote:

crane wing/riposte makes parry and riposte from Duelist moot...

Not entirely, it just means that you can waste a lesser attack and still reasonably expect to take out an enemy's highest (remaining) attack.

I notice that with all the feats here, I never saw power attack or piranha strike. I worry about that, since they are fairly important feats for a near full BAB character. While having a fantastic defense is great, you need to make yourself a reasonable threat or your GM will have less trouble metagaming the monsters into ignoring you for squishier targets.

Duelist helps, but it mostly makes up for the switch to a one handed style than anything else. And the extra blows from your various ripostes need some sting in order to be worthwhile.

[XMorsX]

Actually I forgot the Human bonus feat, so Fury's Fall can be included:

1 Fighter Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility
2 Fighter Dervish Dance, Combat Expertise
3 MoMS Snake Style, Snake Fang
4 Fighter
5 Fighter Improved Trip, Fury's Fall
6 Fighter
7 Fighter Crane Style, Crane Wing
8 Duelist
9 Duelist Greater Trip
10 Duelist
11 Duelist Crane Riposte, Combat Reflexes
12 Duelist
13 Duelist Critical Focus
14 Duelist
15 Duelist Versatile Critical
16 Duelist Deflect Arrows
17 Duelist Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter
19 Fighter Blind Fight, Moonlight Stalker
20 Fighter Improved Initiative

[XMorsX]

lemeres wrote:

nate lange wrote:

crane wing/riposte makes parry and riposte from Duelist moot...

Not entirely, it just means that you can waste a lesser attack and still reasonably expect to take out an enemy's highest (remaining) attack.

I notice that with all the feats here, I never saw power attack or piranha strike. I worry about that, since they are fairly important feats for a near full BAB character. While having a fantastic defense is great, you need to make yourself a reasonable threat or your GM will have less trouble metagaming the monsters into ignoring you for squishier targets.

Duelist helps, but it mostly makes up for the switch to a one handed style than anything else. And the extra blows from your various ripostes need some sting in order to be worthwhile.

You have a point. In my example though there is no place for it until later into the game. Hopefully the sheer number of attacks will make up for the lack of punch behind them.

[Aelryinth]

You're already giving up bonuses to hit by losing out on weapon mastery and weapon spec.

Now you're going to shaft your raw damage, too?

If you're counting on high BAB attacks to do your damage, and ignoring your iteratives, you definitely need Power Attack. Half of your damage is going to come from it.

==Aelryinth

[KutuluKultist]

Fighter 5, Monk 2, Duelist from then on is probably the optimal set up. It maximizes saves & feats at the cost of 1 BAB and delaying duelist by 1 level.