As a PFS player of a true-neutral cleric with a true-neutral god, I was surprised when a GM at an event informed me I was now "evil" at the end of the adventure, because I'd cast deathknell on a fallen demon (no less). Atonement was required to play the character further, and it was marked on my chronicle sheet, etc. That was the only evil act in question.
Anyway, is this sort of thing entirely at GM discretion? I was under the impression that things like animate dead and deathknell were dangers for "good" characters. That performing a single evil deed would no more make a neutral character "evil" than casting a healing spell would make him "good".
All in all, I think spells that can only be used in the performance of an evil act should be removed from the game, if this is the right ruling.
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Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues. Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. For example: using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.
Your GM was incorrect. I suggest contacting your local VC and getting that decision reversed.
Thanks for the prompt reply, Dezhem. To clarify, casting Deathknell kills a helpless NPC, that is what he said was an evil act. I don't see the point of the spell's existence, however, as you can't use it without becoming performing an evil act!
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As a PFS player of a true-neutral cleric with a true-neutral god, I was surprised when a GM at an event informed me I was now "evil" at the end of the adventure, because I'd cast deathknell on a fallen demon (no less). Atonement was required to play the character further, and it was marked on my chronicle sheet, etc. That was the only evil act in question.
Even IF using death knell is an evil act (which is debatable), your GM should have given you a warning when you tried to use it that he would consider it an evil act. And even IF you did it anyway, a single evil act isn't enough to change your alignment all at once (except for a few specifically called out exceptions); it requires a pattern of behavior.
I was under the impression that things like animate dead and deathknell were dangers for "good" characters. That performing a single evil deed would no more make a neutral character "evil" than casting a healing spell would make him "good".
The alignment of a character has nothing to do with whether what they do is an evil act or not. If it's evil for a good character, it's evil for a neutral character.
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Maybe the GM was reading too much into the spell having the [evil] descriptor. Just like infernal healing does.
Note that campaign leadership has already stated that use of an [evil] descriptor spell is not inherently an evil act. At my tables, death knell on a dying demon or most evil creatures would not be an alignment infraction, especially for a non-good character.
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At my tables, death knell on a dying demon or most evil creatures would not be an alignment infraction, especially for a non-good character.
Pet peeve of mine: people thinking that the moral nature of an action is affected by the acting party's own alignment.
A given PC being good or neutral does not in ANY way affect whether a given act is good or neutral or evil. At most, it tells us how much the PC will care about whether the act is good or neutral or evil.
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Pet peeve of mine: people thinking that the moral nature of an action is affected by the acting party's own alignment.
A given PC being good or neutral does not in ANY way affect whether a given act is good or neutral or evil. At most, it tells us how much the PC will care about whether the act is good or neutral or evil.
OOPS! I was typing too fast! That should have said "especially a non-good Cleric"
Because you know, good clerics can't cast deathknell I think (I think that's still the rule right? no opposite alignment spells?)
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My neutral cleric with death knell as his domain spell from the death domain would take offense to the notion that 'recycling' the otherwise lost energy in fallen creatures is evil.
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Agree with Jiggy and that the actions does not depend on the perpetrator, I also agree that the GM should have warned him about it but I think we have to look at the spell in general.
It kills a helpless opponent (which is wrong towards most mortal beings but Evil outsiders are different, they are irredeemable) and gives you a bonus for sucking the life out of them. That is pretty evil, to say the least. Good is about being Altruistic in Pathfinder, that is not altruistic in anyway shape or form. It is actually extremely selfish and thus not a gray area but in fact an evil act. Casting a spell that has
an evil descriptor is not inherently evil...but what this spell does is quite evil.
You cannot compare this spell to infernal healing.
I think it should be removed, along with animate dead.
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It kills a helpless opponent (which is wrong towards most mortal beings
Not inherently, no. Otherwise every formal execution in the world ever would be evil – every hanging, beheading, everything – and I'm pretty sure that some good-aligned nations execute certain criminals on a regular basis.
If the target doesn't deserve it, then yeah, it's evil. But not because they're helpless.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I also agree that the GM should have warned him about it
Minor nitpick:
shouldn't that be:
"The rules require the GM to warn a player when he takes an action that would prompt an alignment change and allow him to change his mind."
Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must make sure that the player understands the warning and the actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences.
We believe a deity would forgive a onetime bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.).
Hence, the GM can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.
Also, becoming evil (temporarily) does not remove you from play. Continuing to play evil and becoming *wantonly* evil (as described as "Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation,") results in the following (per the guide)
The Campaign Coordinator will present all facts to the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants at large with all names (both player and character) removed. If the majority of Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants feel that the act was wantonly evil and the character is irrevocably evil, then character will remain removed from the campaign. If the majority feel the character should be able to atone for his actions, the campaign coordinator will contact the player and advise him of such. The email may be printed and taken to the next game session so the GM may adjudicate the atonement and document it on the Chronicle sheet of the that game.
The GM cannot remove your character from play.
I have seen it said a few times in this thread that casting a spell with the Evil descriptor is not an evil act.
Is there and reference for this?
The reason I ask is that I have a reference that says these are evil acts, granted it is from the Wrath of the Righteous players guide.
p.12 Each minor evil act a creature performs(casting spells with the evil descriptor, praying to an evil deity, using an evil magic device, mind controlling good creatures to commit evil acts, and so on) counts against whatever penances the character has already performed, effectively canceling one out. Any major evil act (knowingly slaying an innocent creature, spreading a disease among a community, inflicting pain on an innocent subject, or animating the dead)...
From this I would think that casting a spell with a Good descriptor would be a good act. A neutral character should be doing about the same number of Good acts as Evil acts, IMHO. One casting of Death Knell shouldn't be enough to be considered evil. But I can see continual casting with never casting any Good spells can lead to becoming Evil.
I would agree that based on this Animate Dead should probably be removed as it is a major evil act.
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I believe it's in the PFS FAQ, but if not, there's a post from Mike that could be dug up.
Also, Wrath of the Righteous player's guide is not PFS legal ;P
Seems to me that those "minor evil acts" are not to hold you accountable for PFS. One of your items listed is "praying to an evil deity" and we have PLENTY of characters in PFS that worship Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Rovagug, and plenty of other evil deities as it is.
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It kills a helpless opponent (which is wrong towards most mortal beingsNot inherently, no. Otherwise every formal execution in the world ever would be evil – every hanging, beheading, everything – and I'm pretty sure that some good-aligned nations execute certain criminals on a regular basis.
If the target doesn't deserve it, then yeah, it's evil. But not because they're helpless.
We are pathfinders not a country with established laws. They have gone through a process and are deemed guilty of committing crimes that are evil. Context is king.
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They have gone through a process and are deemed guilty of committing crimes that are evil.
Only the law/chaos axis cares about that.
"Whether or not they deserved it" is the good/evil axis.
"Who carries it out and under what authority" is the law/chaos axis.
The two are independent of each other.
If it's evil for a Pathfinder to slay a particular helpless target, then it's still evil when it's the city executioner at a ceremony following a conviction through due process. The only difference is that it's LE instead of CE or NE.
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I like Deathknell and Animate Dead. Debating what constitutes an evil act is pointless. Few of us are going to agree upon a definition of evil (it's a horse that's been beaten into the dust). I wouldn't get too worked up about it. If Mike were to contemplate removing Deathknell or Animate Dead I'm sure he would give us notice.
As players, it falls upon us to use these spells responsibly. The only time evil acts come up is when one player's idea of fun infringes on another player's. If we want to keep these spells legal for use, then we have to be careful about when we employ them. The bottom line is they can be taken away if they are used wantonly. As of now, all I see is an old academic argument being dragged out of the grave again. Let's not give the campaign staff a more legitimate reason to pull the spells.
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His name certainly evokes fear and awe, and he has brought my character back to life after killing her...but warnings from Kyle usually come in the form of your dice going so cold they freeze to the table, and a sudden need to pee when you hear the word "gug".
I'm pretty sure that in one of the Books of the Damned about demons, it basically says this is the equivilent of "worshiping" of a Demon Lord. That said, does this mean Clerics/Inquisitors/Commoners/Anyone worship Kyle Baird? What's his favored weapon and domains? Does he have the Bacon (Crispy) Domain/Subdomain?
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His name certainly evokes fear and awe, and he has brought my character back to life after killing her...but warnings from Kyle usually come in the form of your dice going so cold they freeze to the table, and a sudden need to pee when you hear the word "gug".I'm pretty sure that in one of the Books of the Damned about demons, it basically says this is the equivilent of "worshiping" of a Demon Lord. That said, does this mean Clerics/Inquisitors/Commoners/Anyone worship Kyle Baird? What's his favored weapon and domains? Does he have the Bacon (Crispy) Domain/Subdomain?
Daily Devotion: Drink the tears of someone who has lost a loved one or cherished possession by your own hand.
Boon: +4 profane bonus on all ego-based checks and saves, including saving throws against an intelligent item's Ego score.
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the Faq is pandering to the people that want to be neutrally aligned and play evil and I'm sick of it at my table.
It is quite simple, you will not get a free pass if you play in my game and you want to cast blood transcription, death knell, protection from good, unholy blight, animate dead, you want drown prisoners, or anything that is evil. The faq is not rules it is suggestions. Rules are written in black and white.
I personally will not change my stance until one of two things happens.
1. James Jacobs sends me a PM telling me evil is okay.
or
2. It is written in a product I purchase making it a rule.
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the Faq is pandering to the people that want to be neutrally aligned and play evil and I'm sick of it at my table.
It is quite simple, you will not get a free pass if you play in my game and you want to cast blood transcription, death knell, protection from good, unholy blight, animate dead, you want drown prisoners, or anything that is evil. The faq is not rules it is suggestions. Rules are written in black and white.
I personally will not change my stance until one of two things happens.
1. James Jacobs sends me a PM telling me evil is okay.
or
2. It is written in a product I purchase making it a rule.
While various people have mentioned that you need to follow the FAQ, I will add that you can go ahead and not let people cast blood transcription in PFS play, seeing as the latest update to additional resources has banned that spell.
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the Faq is pandering to the people that want to be neutrally aligned and play evil and I'm sick of it at my table.
It is quite simple, you will not get a free pass if you play in my game and you want to cast blood transcription, death knell, protection from good, unholy blight animate dead
These are just as viable for neutral characters (with neutral or worse gods) as wounds,Bless Water Consecrate,Dispel Evil, Hallow, Holy Smite ,Holy Sword ,Holy Word ,Magic Circle Against Evil etc
you want drown prisoners
Depends on what they did. Quite a few pathfinder villains are much improved by a Hanspur offering.
Spells with the [evil] descriptor don't make you evil in PFS. Sorry. They're kind of like global warming for a character, and its too hard to track that over multiple DMs.
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I noticed that many people are making the assumption that you are casting Death Knell on an intelligent creature and basing their arguments on that.
Does it change your mind if death knell is cast on an animal?
What about a cow you are slaughtering for food?
How about when my cleric of Besmara cast it on a sea serpent?
Would it not be an evil act if my cleric carried a big banner saying "If you attack me with lethal force, you are agreeing to have your soul shanghaied for Besmara."? Then it is arguably a concentual act.
As the OP, I offer thanks for all the thoughtful responses, guys.
As far as I can tell, the rules are pretty loose on this alignment stuff, but the GM should have warned me I was about to perform an evil act he didn't think was justified.
Thanks again!
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the Faq is pandering to the people that want to be neutrally aligned and play evil and I'm sick of it at my table.
It is quite simple, you will not get a free pass if you play in my game and you want to cast blood transcription, death knell, protection from good, unholy blight, animate dead, you want drown prisoners, or anything that is evil. The faq is not rules it is suggestions. Rules are written in black and white.
I personally will not change my stance until one of two things happens.
1. James Jacobs sends me a PM telling me evil is okay.
or
2. It is written in a product I purchase making it a rule.
Hello! I see you've just started GMing for Pathfinder Society, so welcome! Please make sure that you are reading and following what is written in the FAQ. While some are, as you say, suggestions, they are typically labelled as such. All parts of the Pathfinder Society FAQ are rules as written, however.