Hi!
My Rise of the Runelords campaign has rolled into chapter two of Hook Mountain Massacre and my five PC's are now level 8.
The group is quite well balanced and they work great together. I'm modding large parts of the adventure arc to better suit their adventuring tastes so flat out changing things doesn't bother me.
I'm just at a slight loss at what to do about their newest trick. At this point the entire group can fly. Two characters can do so 'naturally' (Aasimar and Oracle wings) and they have a wizard who can be very liberal with casts of 'Fly'.
I'm just not really sure how to make things challenging for them in the parts to follow. Sure, there are 'boss' encounters like Barl or a few of the other stone giants and their allies (like a certain dragon) but in general, it does seem like they can just wtfpwn anything that isn't wielding a ballista or is also flying.
I dislike just giving every enemy the tools to negate their flying abilities...I want them to feel like flying is amazing...but I also want the encounters to be interesting and challenging.
So...I'm looking for advice on how to 'spice it up' for an all flying group of characters that has access to ludicrous amounts of ranged power if they want to.
Currently I'm thinking that Barl has pressed a nest of harpies into service and has them patrolling the mountain passes that lead up to his lair in the hook, a few having taken up residency in the former Rok nest above Rannick. That will atleast have something in the air for them to play with while the blast the hapless ogres apart =p
I've also got some things brewing concerning a Skaveling or two, since they've already fought one under the Misgivings (so itd' be familiar).
tl;dr
Advice for running a flying group.
Increase the number of Rocs that the Big M has working for him.
Have high winds around the Hook Mountain. This is a mountainous region and is the area responsible (magically) for the ruinous rains afflicting the region. The high winds should force constant Fly checks.
Oh, and have enemies with Wands of Gust of Wind and the like. The enemy knows about the PCs and know they use a lot of flight spells. So have them be prepared. After players tumble from the sky because they don't have ranks in Fly, they might be discouraged from using it in the future.
Mind you, I want to make it interesting, not impossible.
I really dislike just making it impossible for them to use a good idea or a cool ability...but I dislike it when the use of it neuters an encounter and makes it uninteresting.
Seems like flying, in general at this level, does just that...=p
These are things you should be considering anyway. If someone uses Fly and is hit in combat? They should take a Fly check. As should any flying critter who is attacked while in the air. If this results in players taking ranks in Fly instead of other areas? Good! If not? Then some players may very well be grounded while others take to the air.
Flying screws most encounters. So does invisibility, or teleport, or several other spells, that's the nature of the beast. Just be a man and accept the defeat :P
Ask your players. Are they having fun while slaughtering giants from the air? If the answer is yes... why do you care? If the answer is not... point them that flying is optional, and if they aren't having fun with it, they can pretty much *not* using it.
The key here, is being able to know if *your players* find flying boring. If they don't, then who cares? Just enforce the rules for flying (including rolling Fly to every maneuver, to hover to fight, etc, and count the movement right, like 5' lost per each 45º/90º turn)
Let's see, Hook Mountain Massacre itself:
I didn't have a wizard doing fly on everyone, but I did have a druid use call animal to get a roc to fly them places. I don't recall them really missing much.
Thing is, the adventure "knows" that flight is available. It may not expect widespread usage until 5th level spells are available, but as James Jacobs says, some encounters are there to make the PCs feel powerful, and I think this qualifies. It's natural to be concerned that everyone will feel challenged enough, but I think it's just the initial shock of seeing the ability used for the first time. The PCs (in character, maybe even their players) might be in for a shock when it stops working so well. Hang in there!
Thanks Stazamos, this is more along the lines I was looking for.
I know to enforce the rules, that's not an issue.
The issue is really how do I make the encounter interesting 'WITH' flying involved?
Like...a camp of baddies. PC's move over ground to attack. Encounter plays out.
How is this different if they are flying? PC's fly in...baddies shoot them? Meh they can shoot them while walking too. Net them? Can also happen while on the ground (and is too close to 'neutering them' for me to think its cool). And so on...
How can I 'enrich' an encounter containing flying PC's...make it more fun for them.
Them 'not flying' or 'enforcing fly checks' is not what I'm after, sorry. =/
Well, you can give the giants bows. So the giants can still attack at a distance. Spear-sized arrows piercing them would probably make them want cover fairly quickly! ;)
Giants can throw rocks. Maybe they have extra-special rocks. Maybe they have potions of fly.
Rocks aren't as accurate at range (they get penalties quicker). Besides, there is something horrific about having an arrow the size of a spear sticking out of a character. ^^
Flyers? Well...
Hope that helps a little.
Stazamos has it pretty much dead on as far as assessing the different parts.
I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but:
Flying encounters tend to be boring because of terrain. Air is, by definition, open space, and open space combat is boring.
So try using "terrain" in the air. For example, zones of clouds/mist, that give concealment. A flying flock of birds, that produce difficult terrain. Maybe an air current, which makes it harder to cross a certain zone. Treetop forests that give cover/concealment/total lose of LOS from the air in certain zones of the map, forcing the team to maneuver. Caves and other terrain features that allow the non-flying to hide. Etc.
I'm not really sure of a good way to enhance the fun of a flying party. Combat with a lot of flight gets annoying with respect to measurement, and positioning is less important (and thus less tactically interesting) most of the time, in my opinion, though it depends on the situation.
I'd actually leave it up to the players on this one. They might naturally amuse themselves with ideas like picking up enemies and dropping them, or dropping things on enemies, or just enjoying air superiority for a little while. Just have the enemies act naturally. Enemies might use ranged attacks, or try to disengage if they can't fight back.
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Last thought - Trained condors or eagles might make great sentry animals for airborne enemies. They're relatively small, they can stay in the air all day if they want to, and they have incredibly good eyesight, some of the best in the animal kingdom. A good ranger or druid could train a condor to hover a thousand feet up looking out for enemies then alert their handler if they spot anything weird. One "Ka-kaw!" if by land, two if by air!
I thought we agreed that "ka-kaw" and "tookie-tookie" do not work.
I thought I'd mention something the fly rules are kinda whacked. There is a fly skill check an even if someone has fly cast on them it's rarely enough to do most things other than move your full distance and attack. Even with my PC's at 12th level if the wizard casts fly on the fighter who will still have a fly skill of suck the fighter can't really hover. Although he could move 5 feet and reduce the DC to hover. We found this out at the start of the battle of Sandpoint where everyone was flying. Said fighter went from being a ground attack dive bomber to air cav on the next game once we figured the rules out. Meaning it was better for him to fly there, land and fight normally
That's intentional. The fighter should put a few points in fly.
A player flying through the air looks like a tasty treat for a Roc. I had a player or two get killed by them in book 3 and 4. If they are willing to take the risk, there's some reward.
That's intentional. The fighter should put a few points in fly.
Well you need a reliable way of flying per the skill
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).
The fighter did ask the sorc to cast fly on him once a day. I said that would work sure. However the sorc would have to permanently mark off one spell slot. the sorc for some reason was not into that
The fighter did ask the sorc to cast fly on him once a day. I said that would work sure. However the sorc would have to permanently mark off one spell slot. the sorc for some reason was not into that
that is how I do it too
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Rocks aren't as accurate at range (they get penalties quicker). Besides, there is something horrific about having an arrow the size of a spear sticking out of a character. ^^
Stone giant rocks have a range increment of 180 feet. That's usually plenty far. d8+12 per rock adds up, though the attack rolls aren't great. The archer in my group had a nasty suprise though when he thought he was safe 150 feet away. Was also fun during the attack on Sandpoint when the party realized that if they used the buildings for cover the giants were perfectly able to damage the buildings themselves.
Dreihaddar, basically your PCs have easy access to group flight a little earlier than expected, which is why you're hitting difficulties. Starting in Fortress of the Stone Giants, flight is a lot more normal and expected. I say just keep going and it will even out.
Also if you player are abusing the flight rules, grab out the weather chart, if you aren't already using it. Bad weather makes flying and archery a big pain. Of course thick forests near the ground could provide some needed wind protection, which you could emphasize to keep them low. Plus the regional weather is prone to fog and lowlying clouds, which could create concealment partial and full at distance of 2d12x10' or so.
Edit:
Recently I started a game that emphasized bad weather (the Slumbering Tsar) and we started using the weather and lighting conditions, which have a huge effect on game if you use them. Cloud cover can cut lighting conditions and really shorten encounter distances. Example: The party camps in the dark, clouds obscure the moon creating darkness. The campfire gives off light at 30' and dim light to 60', but darkness beyond. This can be applied to flying as well. We are using 4am-6am and 4pm-6pm as dim light and the rest normal and dark conditions respectively. Its not perfect, but it works.
Hope this helps or at least adds a level of detail that you want.
PCs flying over the Wyvern Mountains? Well, they shouldn't be surprised when they are attacked by a flock of wyvers led by a huge wyvern half-dragon with a breath weapon! As James Cline said, weather can be a major obstacle, especially if they're traveling in the winter. Flying through heavy clouds in the mountains can be a problem, too!
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One thing I'd like to bring up is that in the battle of Sandpoint the giants are hurling wagons and chimneys at the players. If a player is normal sized and a giant hits with such a thrown weapon then that counts as a collision. How the rules read is
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Which is going to hurt folks who don't have high fly skill ranks
Edit whoops I just saw the "flying by wings" part...disregard
I don't have a lot of advice as far as keeping encounters interesting for flying characters. My party has been doing the same thing, and I pretty much just tackle every encounter organically. Be sure to use the rules for flying when they are hit, etc as previous posters have mentioned. Some encounters will be cake-walks for the party, but others have the potential to still be challenging. Remember to have the enemies react realistically. If there's any cover they can take against flying opponents raining down the hurt to them make sure they take it. All in all things will be easier for the PCs for the most part when they are outdoors. That's just the way it is, and I give my group the satisfaction their power brings.
One thing I feel I should definitely recommend at the end of Hook Mountain though is to change Barl's throne room from having an open roof to being a large, enclosed cavern. My group's party had one person fly invisibly over the area scouting, and saw the throne room below. The party then proceeded directly to the throne room - all flying and invisible - to attack Barl with surprise. He fell in 2 rounds, barely getting a spell off. That was disappointing for me, but my players were pretty much high-fiving for days.