There's actually a few rules I need clarification with. I know how much everyone loves grapple...
1.) Eidolon Grab vs Grab Errata
Which wins out? I'm not sure whether or not it wasn't changed because they skipped over it or because it was meant to be that way. I think Summoners came before the errata so that makes me even more confused.
Eidolon Grab: An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.
Grab Errata:
Page 301—In the Grab section, in the first paragraph, delete the second sentence, which reads “Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.” After the second paragraph, add the following paragraph: Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line.
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2.) Grapple Success Bonus
Is this bonus only from the initial grapple? Also, does this add to my eidolon's CMD against the opponent attempting to break the grapple?
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
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3.) "Damage" Action and Energy Attacks
I'm guessing they mean all associated damage like strength bonus and elemental damage?
Energy Attacks:
An eidolon’s attacks become charged with energy.
Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit. The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.
"Damage" Action:
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
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4.) Initial Rake
Does the rake damage work on the first grapple as well? It says on every successful check, but it also says only on foes it is grappling, which it isn't until it makes the first check. If the order is check->succeed->grapple->rake it works.
Rake:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
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5.) Full Attack and Grab
What happens if the first attack succeeds and so does the grapple check? Do the rest of the attacks hit? Can I use those to grapple my target again?
Even more importantly, can I use the rest of those attacks to hit other enemies and grapple them as well? Greater Grappling allows two checks, one move and one standard, so shouldn't it be possible to grapple two opponents?
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Thanks in advance.
For reference:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Format: grab; Location: individual attacks and special attacks.
1. The eidolon's rules trump the universal rules per "Unless otherwise noted".
2. The bonus persists as long as the grapplee doesn't break the grapple. This only applies to the eidolon's grapple checks; CMD is not a grapple check, it's effectively the eidolon's "armor class" against the grapplee's grapple check.
3. Yes.
4. Yes. Rake is awesome.
5. This one's tricky and weird, so this is my understanding of it: If you take the -20, you can finish the full attack, including grappling other targets, though if you choose to not take the -20 on a subsequent target, you automatically release the grapple on any single-limb grapplees, as you must use your full body to grapple the new target. If you choose not to take the -20 at all, you're done with your full attack, as your body is now fully occupied with the grapple. Yes, if you take the -20 on multiple checks, you can grapple multiple targets, but maintaining a single grapple is still a standard action, so you'll only be able to maintain one grapple without Greater Grapple or some other similar ability.
I'm willing to be corrected on any of these, but especially 5, if there are FAQs or other text I've overlooked.
For reference:
** spoiler omitted **1. The eidolon's rules trump the universal rules per "Unless otherwise noted".
2. The bonus persists as long as the grapplee doesn't break the grapple. This only applies to the eidolon's grapple checks; CMD is not a grapple check, it's effectively the eidolon's "armor class" against the grapplee's grapple check.
3. Yes.
4. Yes. Rake is awesome.
5. This one's tricky and weird, so this is my understanding of it: If you take the -20, you can finish the full attack, including grappling other targets, though if you choose to not take the -20 on a subsequent target, you automatically release the grapple on any single-limb...
Thanks for a second opinion, some of these rules aren't completely intuitive...
The only thing I'm disappointed with is that grab probably doesn't work against creatures of the same size, although I can always cast Enlarge Person. Having my eidolon grapple, pin, and choke a Black Dragon to death with Chokehold is a dream of mine.
Although, I'm still conflicted with #5 regarding what happens with a full attack. Your explanation sounds correct, except I still think you should be able to complete your attack as long as you are physically able. In this case, as long as you're not moving or completing an action that require two hands to perform.
"A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform."
The only thing changing between attacks is that the eidolon and its target are now grappled. I would argue that the Eidolon should keep its remaining attacks albeit at a -2 penalty since it is already in the process of using a full-round action, and the completion of that action doesn't require moving or using "two hands" (which should really be renamed "limb or body part being used to grapple").
The thing to realize is grappling and being in control of a grapple does not stop a full attack. Maintaining a grapple does.
Otherwise the eidolon specifics trump universsl rules.
The thing to realize is grappling and being in control of a grapple does not stop a full attack. Maintaining a grapple does.
So then a full attack should continue at a -2 penalty. That just leaves the question of whether or not the remaining attacks linked to Grab can keep triggering the free grapple check.
I don't see why you don't get one, but what happens if you fail or pass? Since you already confirmed the grapple you don't need to pass, and if you fail then you don't get extra rake attacks. The cool thing is that you would then get the +5 bonus on said free check.
The thing to realize is grappling and being in control of a grapple does not stop a full attack. Maintaining a grapple does.
So then a full attack should continue at a -2 penalty. That just leaves the question of whether or not the remaining attacks linked to Grab can keep triggering the free grapple check.
I don't see why you don't get one, but what happens if you fail or pass? Since you already confirmed the grapple you don't need to pass, and if you fail then you don't get extra rake attacks. The cool thing is that you would then get the +5 bonus on said free check.
Edit: I guess the Eidolon could actually use a free action to drop the grapple, then do another claw attack, then grapple for rend, then free to drop, repeat.
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For anyone reading the thread now, the only thing still confusing is #5 above regarding full-attack and grapple from Grab.
I'd have no problem as a GM or player playing #5 as letting you finish your full attack (so long as it goes both ways, of course). The rules don't really cover that situation explicitly, and there have been many threads on the subject already, so unless there's a FAQ on it it's best to work it out with your GM. My interpretation is based on my perception of designer intent, which isn't worth much, and on verisimilitude.
I don't see why you don't get one, but what happens if you fail or pass? Since you already confirmed the grapple you don't need to pass, and if you fail then you don't get extra rake attacks. The cool thing is that you would then get the +5 bonus on said free check.
You generally can't double-grapple the same target (at least, it wouldn't do anything if you did), so the extra grapple would only be useful against a separate target, and then only until you fail to maintain it. I'm pretty sure if you tried to double-grapple someone and tried to use constrict twice on that same target that the GM would crap a brick.
I'd have no problem as a GM or player playing #5 as letting you finish your full attack (so long as it goes both ways, of course). The rules don't really cover that situation explicitly, and there have been many threads on the subject already, so unless there's a FAQ on it it's best to work it out with your GM. My interpretation is based on my perception of designer intent, which isn't worth much, and on verisimilitude.
I don't see why you don't get one, but what happens if you fail or pass? Since you already confirmed the grapple you don't need to pass, and if you fail then you don't get extra rake attacks. The cool thing is that you would then get the +5 bonus on said free check.You generally can't double-grapple the same target (at least, it wouldn't do anything if you did), so the extra grapple would only be useful against a separate target, and then only until you fail to maintain it. I'm pretty sure if you tried to double-grapple someone and tried to use constrict twice on that same target that the GM would crap a brick.
But the grappler can drop the grapple as a free action, which can be used during a full-attack. So you could drop the grapple and, on the next claw attack, grapple again for more rake attacks.