Check this thread where we've talked about this in depth: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pwtc?The-Black-Riders-Mantle-and-Mythic-Levels
Enjoy! :)
(Rasputin for example sure seems like he could have Mythic levels - though he is already more than a bit of a handful for most parties I'd guess)
If you read the text carefully, you'll see that mythic tiers are exactly what Rasputin's up to in draining Baba Yaga's power. Unfortunately, the mythic rules weren't quite developed when I was writing, so we left it at "he's *almost* there" and will get them if he succeeds. ;-)
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A summary of the findings of the thread Tangent linked:
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 2 upon defeating Radosek and closing the Winter Portal.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon claiming the Dancing Hut.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 3 upon gaining Jadrenka's trust and the keys of Artrosa.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon defeating Yrax and gaining the keys of Triaxus.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 4 upon killing Rasputin and claiming Baba Yaga's matryoshka doll prison.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon killing Mametqul and using his head and Bremagyr's crown to release Baba Yaga's power.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon using Baba Yaga's athame to release her death.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 5 by carving out the hearts of the twelve Crone Queens and boiling them in the samovar to release Baba Yaga's life.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial by killing Elvanna and using her blood to free Baba Yaga.
I haven't gone through the AP encounter-by-encounter to account for the above adjustments, but if I were to do so I'd follow the following rule of thumb:
The Shackled Hut encounters should advance about 1 CR. Only creatures marked as exceptional for their kind or otherworldly (including Norgrimm and the Dawn Pipers, but excluding Nazhena) should gain mythic power.
Maiden, Mother, Crone encounters should advance about 1 CR. Creatures personally enjoying the favor of Baba Yaga (including the raven oracles, Jadrenka, Kyrisjana, and Nostafa, but not including Caigreal, her coven, or Poryphanes) or of Kostchtche, who's mythic power stems from Baba Yaga, (including Vsevolod and the svathurim) should gain mythic power.
The Frozen Stars encounters should advance about 1 CR. This should be accomplished wherever thematically possible by adding additional monsters, given the "take on an army" theme running through the chapter. Baba Yaga's touch isn't felt much in the chapter, and thus mythic power should be rare; I believe only Yrax should have it.
Rasputin Must Die encounters should advance about 1 CR. Again, this should be accomplished wherever thematically possible by adding additional monsters to encounters. Mythic power should be associated with creatures referred to as waking from Earth's distant past, not the contemporary soldiery or the various things that spawn when they die (including trench zombies and dullahans). Consider the merits of the Savage mythic simple template for these creatures. Rasputin should gain two or three hierophant tiers; he should be the creature with the most mythic tiers (as distinct from mythic ranks, which are based on CR) the PCs have encountered up to that point.
The Witch Queen's Revenge encounters should advance about 2 CR. Mythic power should become much more common in the bowels of the Dancing Hut, though it should not be in evidence among the maftets. Consider making more of the cold queens lively enough to fight instead of giving the existing ones mythic power; they're sucked dry, they shouldn't have mythic tiers or ranks. Queen Elvanna should have four or five archmage tiers and should be the creature with the most mythic tiers the PCs encounter in the whole adventure path, excluding Baba Yaga herself.
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I have 3 players and compensate for that by giving them mythic tiers. The moment of ascention was the mantle of the black rider, and they've just defeated Radosek using their newfound power.
I think I might add another tier in Whitethrone when they defeat the captain of the watch. I'm thinking of giving him a mythic template to make it more epic. From there I'll have to see. I think I'll keep the mythic progression apart from the main plot - they'll gain their levels for advancing the plot and their tiers for other heroic deeds.
I've added a fun detail, that I don't know how to use yet: each of the three will slowly look and feel like one of baba yagas three riders.
As a start I've given them vulnerability to cold iron. The oracle of metal has caught the idea and ruled that all metal in his posession becomes black. The ranger got the yeti cloak so his color scheme is beginning to becone white. When the paladin wants to buy a plate armour, the only one in stock will be red.
I look forward to seeing their faces when it dawns on them, but don't have any other plans for it yet.
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I've added a fun detail, that I don't know how to use yet: each of the three will slowly look and feel like one of baba yagas three riders.
As a start I've given them vulnerability to cold iron. The oracle of metal has caught the idea and ruled that all metal in his posession becomes black. The ranger got the yeti cloak so his color scheme is beginning to becone white. When the paladin wants to buy a plate armour, the only one in stock will be red.
I look forward to seeing their faces when it dawns on them, but don't have any other plans for it yet.
Have you read The Witch Queen's Revenge? If not, I suspect you will have fun with it.
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My daughter (age 9) did NOT want to play this one, until i told her as reward for helping Baba Yaga she will grant her the ability to become one of Baba Yaga's 3 riders. now we can't start it fast enough! of course what really sold her was the artwork of the 3 riders in Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter:)
I have 3 players and compensate for that by giving them mythic tiers. The moment of ascention was the mantle of the black rider, and they've just defeated Radosek using their newfound power.
I think I might add another tier in Whitethrone when they defeat the captain of the watch. I'm thinking of giving him a mythic template to make it more epic. From there I'll have to see. I think I'll keep the mythic progression apart from the main plot - they'll gain their levels for advancing the plot and their tiers for other heroic deeds.I've added a fun detail, that I don't know how to use yet: each of the three will slowly look and feel like one of baba yagas three riders.
As a start I've given them vulnerability to cold iron. The oracle of metal has caught the idea and ruled that all metal in his posession becomes black. The ranger got the yeti cloak so his color scheme is beginning to becone white. When the paladin wants to buy a plate armour, the only one in stock will be red.
I look forward to seeing their faces when it dawns on them, but don't have any other plans for it yet.
This makes me want to ensure that I don't have more than three players when I run this. I don't know whether I would be able to do that without kicking players out, but I almost want to. Maybe I can find six and run it in two groups...
My daughter (age 9) did NOT want to play this one, until i told her as reward for helping Baba Yaga she will grant her the ability to become one of Baba Yaga's 3 riders. now we can't start it fast enough! of course what really sold her was the artwork of the 3 riders in Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter:)
Lol, the way I interpreted a lot of the dark fable elements has made my game quite gritty and R-rated. A little awkward when I have demented (debased or winter) fey cussing and naming off obscene torture ideas to my players, two of which are my parents.
As for the riders, Baba Yaga could decide she needs to double her guard, since three was a close call?
I'm just shooting for a showdown with Kostchichnie after I run an altered Witchwar Legacy.
i'm shooting for more of a early 90s PG-13 i guess, or PG. i'm sure there will be swearing and i will make the frozen fey evil, but i'll tone down a couple elements (like nadya's daughter) and such.
on to making it mythic, i've decided after much thought to keep it as is, with us being fairly new to the game i'd rather not overly complicate it:)
Have you read The Witch Queen's Revenge? If not, I suspect you will have fun with it.I've added a fun detail, that I don't know how to use yet: each of the three will slowly look and feel like one of baba yagas three riders.
(...)
I look forward to seeing their faces when it dawns on them, but don't have any other plans for it yet.
I read it when it came out, but don't remember much. Do you have any specific ideas?
The only thing I can think of is letting the warden address only one of them depending on what sungon they are in (maiden - white, mother - red, crone - black)
I think he's referring to the continuing the campaign article that has the picture of the iconics as the 3 riders and then inside the article where one of baba yaga's boons is she makes them one of the 3 riders
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A summary of the findings of the thread Tangent linked:
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't gone through the AP encounter-by-encounter to account for the above adjustments, but if I were to do so I'd follow the following rule of thumb:
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going slightly against the consensus on the mythic trials, but I don't feel that the Pale Tower/closing the winter portal qualifies; Radosek isn't related to Baba Yaga and is only an apprentice, not to mention the closing of the winter portal ultimately has no effect (other than short term for one town). However, I think the assault on/defense of Spurhorn would qualify as a mythic trial, in addition to penetrating Ivoryglass, so the total number of trials is the same.
Most of The Snows of Summer and The Shackled Hut would remain unchanged. For non-mythic encounters, increase the number of opponents and/or add class levels as the party gains levels/mythic tiers to mostly keep pace (it's OK if the non-mythic encounters are slightly easier; it just highlights the less frequent/more difficult mythic encounters).
Ascension: Bestowed the mantle of the Black Rider; Tier 1.
Mythic Trial: Defeat the 3 Dawn Pipers (add Arcane mythic simple template; choose spells appropriate to each one's elemental theme, plus piercing scream (x2); CR 6 each, MR 1; add the Advanced simple template to Silverthorn and Wartleby; CR 4 each), as well as Nazhena (Archmage 2; 20 Int; Arcane Surge; Mythic Hexes, Sensory Link; Mythic Spell Lore (mage armor, ice storm); CR 8) and her Ice Golem (add Advanced simple template; CR 6), and free the Dancing Hut; Tier 2.
Mythic Trial 1: Retrieve the two keys from Artrosa by allying with/defeating Jadrenka (Archmage 3; 23 Int; Arcane Surge; Longevity, Mythic Hexes, Mythic Spellpower; Mythic Spell Lore (x2; mage armor, false life, lightning bolt, sands of time, confusion, ice storm); CR 12) and defeating Vsevolod (Hierophant 4; 22 Str; Recalled Blessing, Sudden Attack (Champion); Channel Shockwave, Flash of Rage (Champion), Fleet Warrior (Champion), Hurling Vengeance; Dual Path (Champion), Mythic Spell Lore (murderous command, shield of faith, magic vestment, unholy blight); CR 11).
Mythic Trial 2: Help attack/defend Spurhorn and defeat General Malesinder (Champion 3; 24 Str; Sudden Attack; Backlash, Clean Blade, Fleet Warrior; Improved Critical (Mythic), Power Attack (Mythic); CR 13) to obtain the two-headed eagle; Tier 3.
Mythic Trial 1: Penetrate Ivoryglass and defeat Yrax (Champion 3; 33 Str; Sudden Attack; Aerial Assault (use flying height for damage, use crush in place of grapple), Blowback, Fleet Warrior; Mythic Spell Lore (ray of enfeeblement, true strike, mirror image), Power Attack (Mythic); CR 15) to obtain the bearskin.
Mythic Trial 2: Penetrate Akuvskaya Monastery, defeat Rasputin (Hierophant 4; 11 (13) Dex, 24 (28) Cha; Inspired Spell; Flexible Counterspell, Mythic Spellcasting (x2; command, entropic shield, death knell, searing light, sending, unholy blight, flame strike, blade barrier), Divine Metamastery; Great Fortitude (Mythic), Toughness (Mythic); CR 19), and retrieve Baba Yaga's doll prison; Tier 4.
Mythic Trial 1: Defeat Queen Bremagyr (Champion 4; 27 Dex; Fleet Charge, Sudden Block (Guardian); Aerial Assault, Impossible Speed, Mythic Spellcasting (cone of cold, control weather, polar ray, wall of ice), Parry Spell (Guardian); Dual Path (Guardian), Power Attack (Mythic); CR 19), retrieve her crown, and return by defeating Mametqul (Inquisitor 4; 30 Str, 24 Dex, 29 Con, 19 Int, 21 Wis, 20 Cha; Destruction domain; Critical Focus, Precise Strike; CR 16) and his servants to reclaim Baba Yaga's power.
Mythic Trial 2: Deal with the Buyan Nuckelvees (Barbarian 2; 26 Str, 26 Dex, 26 Con, 13 Int, 15 Wis, 19 Cha; Lesser Spirit Totem; CR 13 each), retrieve Baba Yaga's athame from the Venerable Quickwood (add Invincible mythic simple template; CR 17, MR 2) and Witch Doll (add Agile mythic simple template and Rune of Agony construct modification; CR 17, MR 1), and defeat the guardian Khala (add Advanced simple template and Savage mythic simple template; CR 19, MR 2) to reclaim Baba Yaga's death.
Mythic Trial 3: Defeat Baba Yaga's daughters (add Arcane mythic simple template, personalizing each spell selection; CR 16 each, MR 2) and cut out their hearts to reclaim Baba Yaga's life; Tier 5.
Finally: Defeat Queen Elvanna (Archmage 6; 22 Dex, 30 (34) Int; Wild Arcana; Greater Familiar Link, Mythic Hexes, Mirror Dodge, Mythic Spellpower (x2), Channel Power; Elemental Focus (Mythic), Mythic Spell Lore (x2; unshakeable chill, death knell, lightning bolt, vampiric touch, phantasmal killer, baleful polymorph, cone of cold, steal power, flesh to stone, chain lightning, polar ray, foresight); CR 23) to reclaim Baba Yaga's blood.
I might use this, but only grant the mythic tier upon killing Elvanna.
For post campaign action, having Baba Yaga as the source of the party's mythic power is a double-edged sword. Bittersweet victory at best. Which is actually sounding more intriguing as I write it.
I am almost to the dancing hut. I have not implemented anything mythic. Considering the first use of the hut to grant mythic...
My group is going to ascend through gaining the mantle of the Black Rider.
I don't want them having 2 tiers after Book 1, so the second Tier will come from defeating the Dawn Pipers and gaining the Hut.
I haven't gone through the rest in detail, so thanks for all of the ideas in this thread!
I'm shooting for them being 4th or 5th Teir by the end, then, if we keep going, running a modified Witchwar Legacy and have them gain additional tiers by shutting down the winter collectors to free Irrisen from the grip of winter. With the finale being a confrontation with Baba Yaga.
i agree with dragonchess, while gaining the black riders mantle IS a good place for gaining mythic power, i just dont think gaining it at 2nd level is the right thing. for me that seems a bit early in the game for mythical action, however 4th level seems just about right.
for the record i am still undecided on using mythic adventures for the AP part of RoW (continuing the campaign on the other hand.....)
honestly im not sure if using mythic adventures on any AP not written into it is worth the work.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I'm thinking I will probably grant my PCs one mythic tier when they gain the Mantle of the Black Rider. After that, we'll see how it goes -- I may just run the rest as-written and not introduce any more mythic elements. The PCs will be a little more powerful, but I don't think I'll actually need to change much if anything to add additional challenge. My players like to feel powerful :-)
If the players really like it, though, I may add a few more tiers for the PCs later on.
i agree with dragonchess, while gaining the black riders mantle IS a good place for gaining mythic power, i just dont think gaining it at 2nd level is the right thing. for me that seems a bit early in the game for mythical action, however 4th level seems just about right.
for the record i am still undecided on using mythic adventures for the AP part of RoW (continuing the campaign on the other hand.....)
honestly im not sure if using mythic adventures on any AP not written into it is worth the work.
Oh yeah, for sure. The big thing to note is that the source of mythic power can take it away, and so granting mythic with black rider and then confronting Baba Yaga = no more mythic.
Just minor story/rules element there. Elvanna's death as mythic ascension however...I look forward to an altered WitchWar Legacy, change the grand daughter to a great grand daughter who wasn't Baba Yaga raptured and seeks to finish what Queen Elvanna started.
"Baba Yaga's Rapture" absolutely NEEDS to be a title for an adventure that takes place after RoW:)
Just because Baba Yaga is the catalyst for Ascension through the Black Rider does not mean she can just undo that Ascension. Indeed, given that one of the entities you end up helping in Book 6 is
Tangent, my meta plot is going to be something exactly along those lines!
Having read Fey Revisited, I've starting thinking about a triumvirate of norns being the real source of my players' mythic power.
They've "hooked on" the power that the black rider gave the players and started boosting it.
They will start appearing to my players individually (there are 3, fitting perfectly with the 3 riders and a norn triumvirate) to groom them into ultimately have them foil Baba yaga.
According to Fey Revisited, Irrisen see a lot of norn activity apparently working against Baba Yaga. They seem to think Lands of the Linnorm Kings is a place of great destiny.
I am about to start this up myself and was planning on making it mythic. Like so many others, I am making the assumptions of the mantle the point of ascension, and after that I was going to aim for granting the party 1 tier per book, preferably about halfway through. I figured that access to a tier 6 ability would make a nice mythic capstone.
I generally ignore xp awards in APs and instead level them up at points that seem appropriate, and will likely do the same thing with mythic trials. That being said, are there any spots about midway through the books that seem especially appropriate? Would 1 tier per book be difficult to keep up with? How much tweaking would be required?
@martinaj: while the thread is older and did initially predate the release of Mythic Adventures, check this thread out: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pwtc?The-Black-Riders-Mantle-and-Mythic-Levels
It provides suggestions for Mythic trials and the like for the adventure.
As I slowly plan out this mythic RoW that I'm running, I came upon this thought. If the black rider can bestow his mythic power onto 4 to 6 PCs, allowing them to ascend, he must have quite a bit of it. At least 3 or 4 tiers, I would say.
So, it is logical to assume that whoever killed the other two riders may have gained a fair chunk of mythic power. These could become additional mythic foes for the party, tied to Elvanna.
So, the question is, who killed the other riders and stole their mythic power? (I'm looki g for creative suggestions, I don't have any brilliant ideas right now.)
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I'm going slightly against the consensus on the mythic trials, but I don't feel that the Pale Tower/closing the winter portal qualifies; Radosek isn't related to Baba Yaga and is only an apprentice, not to mention the closing of the winter portal ultimately has no effect (other than short term for one town). However, I think the assault on/defense of Spurhorn would qualify as a mythic trial, in addition to penetrating Ivoryglass, so the total number of trials is the same.
Bit of an older post, but I'd like to defend the earlier trial. One of the reasons I like to characterize Reign of Winter as an AP that can easily be Mythicized is because of the ad-hoc, untyped ability score boosts the PCs gain based having completed certain tasks:
The boosts are nicely replicated by the ability score gains at even-numbered Mythic tiers, but the timing is slightly "off":
Putting the trial that boosts the PCs to tier 2 in the Pale Tower places the ability score boost as near as possible to the place the PCs would gain it going by the AP as written. Comrades Spicer and Groves have indicated that they collaborated more extensively on Snows of Summer and The Shackled Hut than most chapter writers had done previously, so I feel safe in assuming the encounters in the latter chapter were balanced with the +2 from the mantle in mind. That being the case, I feel the PCs should get it as soon as possible.
But moving from mechanics to theme, there are solid reasons to make the Pale Tower a trial. True, the denizens are only obliquely connected to Baba Yaga. Radosek is the closest, being the apprentice cum lover of one of Baba Yaga's fifth-generation descendants. As you point out, that's not close at all. But the Pale Tower is also the site of the PCs' first victory against Elvanna's scheme:
While Snows of Summer wouldn't work if the individual winter portals couldn't be closed by lesser beings, the fact remains that the PCs are tampering with a Mythic [Mythic-like in the AP as written] ritual that channels the power of dozens of major artifacts. That counts for something, at least to me.
It's also their first blow against tyranny in Irrisen, which seems more thematically significant to me than the war on Triaxus. Speaking of which, while there is something to be said for expanding the game world beyond the theme and central figures of the AP, the whole drama on Triaxus is barely connected to Baba Yaga at all, and as such I think Mythic power should be as limited as possible there. True, there are moments that look Mythic on Triaxus:
Judging by Sword of Valor, however, conducting a campaign or a siege plain and simple is not one of them. That chapter puts the PCs in command of an army rather than acting as support like they do here, and none of it counts as a Mythic trial. The only trials in that chapter are:
The whole war business can thus be written off, and the trials reframed as overcoming individual foes. I think you know this, because instead of referencing anything in the battle, you highlight the fight against General Malesinder. Thing is, of the characters who got NPC gallery pages, I would be hard-pressed to think of anyone who is less connected to Baba Yaga than General Malesinder. She is the servant of a guy who Baba Yaga talked to - keeping her identity a secret - once. Nothing in her personal history as related on the page hints at her having a Mythic nature. Yrax is "indifferent" to her. The army she commands is a "diversion".
On the whole, it doesn't make much difference, since the number of trials comes out the same either way. Even if someone were to incorporate both the closing of the winter portal and the siege of Spurhorn as trials, the PCs wouldn't rise above tier 5, and the transition point to tier 5 would still lie in the middle of The Witch Queen's Revenge. I just thought the earlier ascension to tier 2 merited a defense.
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Do not assume that Baba Yaga is the only source of mythic power in the adventure (confusing the central theme with an exclusive theme). I highlighted Radosek because there is no background (related to Baba Yaga) or thematic (he's an apprentice) reason for him to have mythic tiers. Yrax and Malesinder, like the Dawn Pipers and Vsevolod, have other potential sources for mythic power.
Mythic trials, as detailed in Running a Mythic Game, "should include at least three of the elements noted in Elements of a Mythic Adventure:" Cunning Foes, Hard Consequences, Impressive Settings, Legendary Creatures, Otherworldly Influence, Powerful (i.e., mythic) Enemies, and Supernatural Events.
The Pale Tower might have cunning foes (although they are not truly described as such in the adventure), but there are no hard consequences (as I mentioned), truly impressive settings, legendary creatures, otherworldly influence, powerful enemies (unless the GM shoehorns mythic tiers on Radosek), or supernatural events that make it really special (IMO).
Freeing the hut at the end of The Shackled Hut contains otherworldly influence (the dawn pipers), powerful enemies (Nazhena), and supernatural events (the regrowing forest around the hut); an argument can also be made for hard consequences (need the hut to find Baba Yaga) or impressive settings (Whitethrone).
Artrosa definitely qualifies (cunning foes, impressive settings, and powerful foes at a minimum).
The assault on/defense of Spurhorn contains at least two or three of those elements (hard consequences and impressive settings; possibly cunning foes, depending on how well the GM runs the assault/defense) even before giving mythic tiers to General Malesinder as a powerful enemy.
Ivoryglass is the culmination of the trek featuring impressive settings, legendary creatures (including Yrax), and a powerful enemy (Yrax).
Akuvskaya Monastery has cunning foes, impressive settings, otherworldly influence/supernatural events, and a powerful enemy.
Opening the first doll layer does not qualify (IMO). The guardian's CR is two less than the APL even as written (not a powerful foe) and doesn't qualify as legendary (per the definition in Mythic Adventures); you might justify impressive settings and otherworldly influence, but that's really it.
Opening the second, third, and fourth layers all have at least three elements to make them mythic trials (typically from cunning foes, hard consequences, impressive settings, otherworldly influence, and powerful enemies). Technically, the showdown with Elvanna would also qualify as a mythic trial, but this is only important if the GM wants to continue the campaign (i.e., to shut down the winter collectors and face Baba Yaga).
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Do not assume that Baba Yaga is the only source of mythic power in the adventure (confusing the central theme with an exclusive theme). I highlighted Radosek because there is no background (related to Baba Yaga) or thematic (he's an apprentice) reason for him to have mythic tiers. Yrax and Malesinder, like the Dawn Pipers and Vsevolod, have other potential sources for mythic power.
Mythic trials, as detailed in Running a Mythic Game, "should include at least three of the elements noted in Elements of a Mythic Adventure:" Cunning Foes, Hard Consequences, Impressive Settings, Legendary Creatures, Otherworldly Influence, Powerful (i.e., mythic) Enemies, and Supernatural Events.
The Pale Tower might have cunning foes (although they are not truly described as such in the adventure), but there are no hard consequences (as I mentioned), truly impressive settings, legendary creatures, otherworldly influence, powerful enemies (unless the GM shoehorns mythic tiers on Radosek), or supernatural events that make it really special (IMO).
Freeing the hut at the end of The Shackled Hut contains otherworldly influence (the dawn pipers), powerful enemies (Nazhena), and supernatural events (the regrowing forest around the hut); an argument can also be made for hard consequences (need the hut to find Baba Yaga) or impressive settings (Whitethrone).
Radosek and the Pale Tower can tie in to the Mythic power theme fairly easily IMO. He and Nazhena worked rituals at the Pale Tower together that were part of Elvanna's Ley Line ritual extending Eternal Winter out beyond Irresin. He and Nazhena ritually bound themselves into Elvanna's mythic work and support her, they are her mythic minions. They have tapped into and become part of Elvanna's Mythic power structure and the power of the ley lines and Winter.
Boosting Radosek and Nazhena because of their connection to Elvanna's Winter rituals and the ley lines they have tapped for power works well for me.
In my game I boosted Radosek's power for the ley line tapping theme and it came off as feeling very appropriate for the PCs. The party is heading to Whitethrone and are expecting Nazhena and Elvanna to have boosts as well for similar reasons.
Here's something to also consider: Mythic PCs count as a level higher for the first two Tiers. I would consider a level 4, Tier 1 PC to be a level 5 equivalent, easily. And once the PCs have a second Mythic Tier, you definitely will be increasing the difficulty of other foes to compensate. So seeing that you'll be making things more difficult because the PCs are tougher and more versatile, you can also enhance encounters and increase the number of Mythic Trials if you so choose.
The Tower? As written, it's an Impressive Setting. This is a castle made out of ice! The consequences? If the PCs fail to shut the Winter Portal, then winter will descend upon Helgren. Crops have already failed in some farms in the region. Irrisen forces have entered the region. You can be sure that if the PCs don't shut the Portal that this will continue. This is an invasion after all.
Seeing that leylines are involved and that the two towns mirror one another, you can also easily claim that Otherworldly Influences are involved. It's most definitely supernatural in origin! Toss in a Mythic Tier for Radosek so he's a threat to the PCs (which makes sense!) then you have all the markings for a Mythic Trial.
It's just me, but as a DM, I want the mythic power to build more slowly than giving the PCs two tiers during the first adventure. Plus, to me, the mythic rules really are kind of exponential. Going from Tier 1 to Tier 2 is a pretty big jump, and requires even more upgrading of the adventure.
My players just finished the battle at the Winter Portal, met the Black Rider, and gained their first Mythic Tier. They won't be getting the second one for quite a while...
To each their own. Every campaign is different, with players interested in different things and GMs aiming for different goals. No one game is "better" or "worse" than the other. So if you want a slow Mythic progression? Have a slow Mythic progression. You can even increase the number of Mythic Trials to gain a Tier if you want (the Mythic rules allow for that).
I disagree, however, about the "jump" in the Tiers. Tier 1 and Tier 2 are fairly close in power, and combined are around 1 level equivalence. The difference is that one Tier has a bonus Mythic Feat, while the second one has a +2 to stats. My initial decision to go Mythic in RoW was that I saw the similarity between the Black Rider's Mantle giving +2 to one stat, and gaining a second Mythic Tier.
Thus I chose to have the second Mythic Tier given at the end of Book 1. The third Tier, however, could be granted upon finishing Artosia (one Trial for the Hut, the second Trial for Artosia). And the fourth Tier? Well, that actually could end up being granted in Book 6, when Baba Yaga was granting an additional +2 to an ability score. (Rasputin being the next Trial, and then the following Trial being the Hall of Thrones.) This would be a thematic Mythic growth as it follows the ability score increases that Baba Yaga grants.
In this scenario (which I'm just tossing out as an example) the PCs got the initial second Tier quickly, yes, but then Tier 3 is two whole books later. And Tier 4 is three books later.
Personally, I'm not sure how long the RoW campaign will last. We seem to game under six times in a year. It's probably going to grind to a halt due to inertia.
Mythic trials, as detailed in Running a Mythic Game, "should include at least three of the elements noted in Elements of a Mythic Adventure:" Cunning Foes, Hard Consequences, Impressive Settings, Legendary Creatures, Otherworldly Influence, Powerful (i.e., mythic) Enemies, and Supernatural Events.
The Pale Tower might have cunning foes (although they are not truly described as such in the adventure), but there are no hard consequences (as I mentioned), truly impressive settings, legendary creatures, otherworldly influence, powerful enemies (unless the GM shoehorns mythic tiers on Radosek), or supernatural events that make it really special (IMO).
Radosek and the Pale Tower can tie in to the Mythic power theme fairly easily IMO. He and Nazhena worked rituals at the Pale Tower together that were part of Elvanna's Ley Line ritual extending Eternal Winter out beyond Irresin. He and Nazhena ritually bound themselves into Elvanna's mythic work and support her, they are her mythic minions. They have tapped into and become part of Elvanna's Mythic power structure and the power of the ley lines and Winter.
Boosting Radosek and Nazhena because of their connection to Elvanna's Winter rituals and the ley lines they have tapped for power works well for me.
Making Radosek mythic still only meets one element for a mythic trial. Even if you re-work the inhabitants of the Pale Tower to be more proactive, there is not a third element to qualify (IMO). What are the hard consequences? Is the Pale Tower really that much more impressive as a setting than a regular stone castle? Where are the legendary creatures? What otherworldly influence is present? What supernatural events at the Pale Tower make it special?
It is a huge icicle that was turned into a castle by a powerful witch. It was not BUILT out of ice. It was CARVED out of ice. To me, that sounds like a damn impressive setting. In addition, rather than having stairs or the like, you enter small teleporters and teleport from area to area. That is far different than most castles.
I mean, seriously. You could claim the same for Book 4. What's so impressive about the lair for the White Dragon general that would qualify that as a Mythic trial? And for that matter, there are plenty of extra-dimensional planes of existence. So why is Rasputin's hidey-hole so special? Heck, artifacts are a dime a dozen. They exist everywhere these days. So why is Baba Yaga's Hut so special? Why should freeing it qualify for a Mythic Trial?
For that matter, what's so special about ANY of the settings in Wrath of the Righteous that could qualify any of those for a Mythic Trial? Nothing. And those demons? Ordinary. They exist all the time. So really, the heroes of WotR shouldn't be Mythic and all that Mythic stuff can just be stripped away.
You see my point? You can easily argue away the "special" aspect for Mythic Trials. And hey, if you're a GM who doesn't want Mythic in your campaign, that's your right and you don't need to include Mythic at all. The very game itself is designed around a lack of Mythicness. Well, with the exception of the Mantle of Baba Yaga resembling aspects of Mythic Tiers which led me to originally consider adding Mythic to the game as I mentioned in the second post of this thread.
That was kind of the point of my post above that I didn't want to give out two tiers in Book 1. Just my personal preference. I'm going to probably give out one tier per book. I'll modify stuff as needed to make it feel appropriately mythic when the characters get a tier. If an encounter, as written, doesn't meet a perceived requirement, then I'll add it.
You're not, however. You're having Ascension and then the trial leading to Tier 2.
And again, WotR has characters getting 2 Mythic Tiers each book - Tiers 2 and 3 in Book 2, 4 and 5 in Book 3, and so forth. That first Tier is so quick that it honestly doesn't matter.
To be honest, most of the other APs that people have talked about adding Mythic to seem to end up having one Tier a Book, not including Ascension. Given the relative difficulty of getting Tiers above 4 (the slow increase in Trials needed), it seems like Tier 5 or 6 seems to be the high point for those games not designed specifically with Mythic in mind.
It is a huge icicle that was turned into a castle by a powerful witch. It was not BUILT out of ice. It was CARVED out of ice. To me, that sounds like a damn impressive setting. In addition, rather than having stairs or the like, you enter small teleporters and teleport from area to area. That is far different than most castles.
Impressive Settings: The world of mythic adventures is enormous and dramatic. While a large keep is certainly impressive, one with a 200-foot-tall tower at its heart is more suitably awe-inspiring. This applies to natural environments as well, such as an entire forest with plants five times the normal size, waterfalls more than 100 feet high, or an immense volcano erupting at its heart. This might also take the form of a location with supernatural effects, such as a lake that is perfectly calm even when disturbed, or a swamp that is preternaturally dark. These places should appeal to all the senses, making them vibrant and memorable.
So the Pale Tower is carved from ice. Is that so much more impressive than if it were carved out of a rock outcropping (i.e., dwarves)? It's only four stories tall (about 60 ft high, assuming 10 ft high ceilings and 5 ft thick floors). Short-range transporters can be achieved by any 7th-level wizard (dimension door) with Craft Wondrous Item to create the "portals."
Triaxus is another planet, with Spurhorn and Ivoryglass in a legendary mountain range ("Said to have grown overnight from the blood of fallen good dragons during the early wars between dragons and Triaxians...") and a glacier, respectively. Ivoryglass, as I mentioned, is also at the end of a 200 mile journey through the Drakelands, featuring several extreme geographical features. Both are a lot more impressive than a single tower on flat ground 6 miles from a town.
The Dragon Legion aerie of Spurhorn is an imposing fortress perched high atop a large rocky crag in the Parapet Mountains on the western edge of the Skyfire Mandate.
Ivoryglass sits within the Vahara Glacier, inside a large well-like shaft almost 200 feet deep called a moulin, formed over millennia from glacial meltwater. Ivoryglass takes its name from an immense, circular block of smooth, palely reflective white stone over 3,000 feet in diameter that supports the entire fortress and its outbuildings. Crafted ages ago by powerful dragons, this massive stone “floats” atop the moving glacier and magically keeps the fortress level and in place, ensuring that the glacier doesn’t slowly overrun and swallow the fortress.
Nothing spectacular about that. They're a dime a dozen in fantasy settings.
Nothing spectacular about that. They're a dime a dozen in fantasy settings.
Legendary mountain ranges (on another planet) holding large keeps protected by magical defenses that house entire units of dragonriders? 3,000 ft diameter stone blocks that magically "float" on a moving glacier? "A dime a dozen?" More like, "they exist, but they're rare and indicate powerful inhabitants beyond the ordinary fantasy ilk."
But a small tower made of ice, in a world where stone shape and transmute mud to rock/transmute rock to mud can be used in building projects, is "special?" And trench warfare, animated tanks, industrial age firearms, spectral searchlights, and buildings that exist "out of phase" and aren't fully accessible by any normal/magical means are "not special?"
Not if you don't want it to be.
You can argue all you want that the Ice Tower that is the heart and core empowering the Winter Portal into Taldor is not Mythic in nature. You have decided it not to be.
I'm pointing out that the same can be said for any environment. Demiplanes are commonplace. People can create them with a 7th level scroll. No doubt there are cities that use a Demiplane where all of the city's sewage empties into it so the city itself doesn't stink, and once it's full they close the portal to it and craft a new one.
And in a realm where winter lasts hundreds of years, I'm sure there are multiple keeps that use magic to prevent the structures from being crushed under tons of ice. All that's "special" about the one at the end of Book 4 is the fact it's inside a glacier. So? How is that special? No doubt there are others.
And you've obviously decided the same about Triaxus and Akuvskaya Monastery.
No, I'm just pointing out the logical extremes of your argument against other people using the ice tower.
If you look at the URL that I linked at the start of this conversation, I pointed out multiple areas which could be considered Mythic Trials in that other thread. It is where I'm planning on probably having Mythic Trials to ultimately have the PCs at Tier 5 at the end of the campaign (if it lasts that long).
Because if a tower carved out of a giant icicle that is part of a ley line linking two regions, allowing the spread of arctic weather in a region in the middle of summer is not special enough, then why should any other setting?
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Just had an idea to extend this AP, and add a taste of mythic power at the end in the process.
Someone mused in a thread (I thought it was this one, but I can't find it now) that after fighting Grigori Rasputin in an extradimensional monastery, Tesla coils and purple lightning everywhere, after fighting through a gauntlet of minions that are in some cases as old as the crusaded, duking it out with Queen Elvana in a secluded cave seems kind of anticlimactic. After mulling this over, I've got to say that I agree.
So I will be tweaking Witch Queen's Revenge so that the PCs do not fight Elvana in the hut, and her blood is needed to interrupt the ritual that will freeze Golarion, but not to free Baba Yaga.
Instead, the PCs will simply have to unlock the various aspects of Baba Yaga hidden throughout the hut, then drop the matroshkya doll into the Hut's cauldron. At that point, she tells the PCs that she owes them, and grudgingly grumbles that they probably want her to stop Elvana's ritual. She says she can do that, but that they will need to go to Whitethrone, where the ritual is taking place.
The hut goes back to Whitethrone's market district, creating a panic in the city and getting the guard all riled up. Baba Yaga tells the PCs that Elvana's ritual is dangerously close to completion, and she will need to start undoing it NOW. Two kickers. She has to end the ritual from where it's been worked on - Elvana's sanctum. Also, Elvana's blood will be needed to undo the spell, as a final component. With Baba Yaga aiding them, they quickly storm Whitethrone's royal palace. This gives them a chance to see Baba Yaga in action, and demonstrates that if they are inclined to turn on her later, they are not yet powerful enough to do so.
With Baba Yaga in tow, it's not too tricky to bust into Elvana's sanctum, but Elvana isn't there. She knows her mum is back and she's holing up and rallying all of her defences while she quickly tries to come up with a new plan to not die. Baba Yaga tells the PCs that she must begin work on breaking the ritual, so she can't help them deal with Elvana. They will need to go out and capture or kill her so her blood will be ready to go when BY is finished. However, Baba Yaga gives the PCs her broom as the focus for an "Ascension" spell, giving them each a single mythic tier for 60 hours, divided by the number of players.
Now we're set up to have the PCs scour whitethrone palace in all it's high magic fairy-tale splendor and fight through Elvana's most potent defenses. There's a much greater buildup than "Oh hai Elvana, you're in the Hut too," and we've got the potential for a climactic battle in the throne room or something.
I was planning on Elvanna escaping through a Contingency or the like. She then flees to the ice caves which are the setting for the Witchwar Legacy module - the end battle is fighting her in the final chamber while in possession of the Torc.
I've just given my four players a Mythic tier in place of the Black Rider's Mantle, and they definitely found them more intriguing than a mere +2 would have been.
A player from a different group said something to the effect of "Now you're going to have to add Mythic to all the bad guys." This seems wrong to me. The crunch is that Mythic tiers add power to the party, so enemies should be selected/scaled so that they're still a suitable challenge. But the fluff is that Mythic tiers represent something special and unique. Adding an equal and opposite bonus to every mook feels wrong. Even level Bosses like Radosek don't feel like they should be made Mythic - stronger perhaps (or less forgiving, since Reign Of Winter is already quite lethal), but not Mythic.
How do people feel about boosting the baddies? A single tier is no more overpowering than the Mantle would otherwise be, so this is only really a question when they get the second tier. For clarity, I'm using the "when I say so" rule for levelling up rather than counting XP, and these are fairly new players so a TPK would not be fun for any of us.
i agree, not every creature should be mythic, just a few here and there:)
If you're not planning on letting many Mythic Tiers accumulate, then the next "Trial" should be getting the Hut. That's when they get to Tier 2.
Don't discount adding Mythic templates to some foes, however. If your players are easily mowing through encounters after becoming Mythic (or even before!) then quietly including a Mythic enemy or two may balance the equation. Just don't play it up - use the Mythic as a means of increasing a foe's effectiveness.
If I were to use Mythic in specific encounters... I'd have Radosek be Mythic because of his association with the Winter Portal, along with his Mistress. Probably have the White Dragon in the clock tower be Mythic as well. The Centaur in Artosia would be a fine candidate as well, as would the White Dragon General in Book 4 (and perhaps his twisted son). And naturally Rasputin would qualify as should Elvanna. ;)
But yeah. You could easily have the players only be Tier 2 through most of the campaign, and maybe make Tier 3 at the end. (Given there's another point where they get another +2 to a stat, maybe even Tier 4.)
there's another point where they get another +2 to a stat
There is? I missed that bit, where is it?
(Since I only manage to get this group into one room together every couple of months, I haven't read the later books as deeply.)
there's another point where they get another +2 to a statThere is? I missed that bit, where is it?
(Since I only manage to get this group into one room together every couple of months, I haven't read the later books as deeply.)
i think it isn't until book 6 when they are slowly unraveling Baba Yaga's prison
also the first world forest and the dawn pipers are an awesome place to throw some mythic shenanigans:) i plan on making the dawn pipers mythic and maybe putting a mythic ice troll or 3 with nazhena, i still need to explore mythic adventures more also our game got delayed by holidays and all sorts of crazy stuff before that (we've been trying to start RoW in early august, so yeah, its been crazy!)
Yes, it's in Book 6. The "Trials" to unlock the Dolls do read very much like a series of Mythic Trials and could be used as such. I think that was actually the intent of the game designers - not to put Mythic in, but to give it a very mythic Feel.
Cap, I feel your pain. My group has been fiddling around with this campaign since shortly after Book 2 of RoW came out (I was running a campaign previous to then and just switched the storyline to have them, at level 3/4, reach Helgren and get involved with RoW at that point while upgrading foes to compensate - it helps that I run low-magic games when left to my own devices). We're just now reaching the Winter Portal. :(
In fact, originally we were going to have a game last weekend, but weather and the family of two of the players decided to put a kibosh into that effort. Now we're looking at maybe the 2nd weekend of January. (I really should get them a webcam for Christmas. That way they can stay home during inclement weather and we can STILL hold the game.)
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the sad part with us is, we all live in the same house lol, i'll try to get it going tomorrow night i think, we have our characters made, i have the night off and its supposed to rain:)