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I was taking a look at the Martial Versatility feat, and had a few thoughts.
What are all the feats that can be used with this feat?
Is there a list?
How can this feat best be utilized?
Are there unique usages of this feat not immediately apparent?
i suppose if your access to a specific weapon type is limited (for... some reason?) or you find an awesome similar weapon in a hoard you could pick up a similar one without losing all your feat benefits (weapon focus/specialization spring to mind, but im sure there's others).
or for fluff if you prefer one weapon and your bro prefers another similar one and he bites the dust, you could take his up in his memory or something.
the fact that it only applies to ONE relevant combat feat kinda kills it though. martial mastery is more worth it, but comes much too late.
What are all the feats that can be used with this feat?
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions.
Maybe others, but I doubt it.
Is there a list?
No, but it only applies to feats where you choose a specific weapon to apply it to. So, very, very few feats.
How can this feat best be utilized?
It can't--it's pretty crappy.
Are there unique usages of this feat not immediately apparent?
Nope, it's just a feat tax to let you feel versatile and able to use lots of weapons really well, even though the wealth system won't actually allow that anyway.
It's crappy. Move on.
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There's a bit of debate, I think, but Dervish Dance seems to qualify. So if you, for fluff reasons, wanted to use a Longsword or something instead of a Scimitar you could.
And, uh...
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Dervish Dance a Bastard Sword/Falcata/Katana/Longsword at level 4
Dervish Dance a Greatsword at level 6 (2 Titan Mauler/4 Fighter).
Dervish Dance a Falcata as a Kensai at level 7 for a less cookie cutter aspect.
It isn't optimal with these, but it is nice for a different type of character.
EDIT:Ninja'd
Definitely not Net Adept or Focused Shot. And not Dervish Dance either, I don't understand where people are getting that from.
It should work on Rapid Reload though.
The point of the feat is not "any feat that specifies a weapon can be changed!"
The point is, if you have to choose a specific weapon for a feat, Martial Versatility expands it to work on a group instead.
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And not Dervish Dance either, I don't understand where people are getting that from.Well Martial Versatility says
and Dervish Dance saysMartial Versatility (Combat)
You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.
Dervish Dance (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
So, since Dervish Dance is a combat feat specific to the scimitar, martial versatility means it is now a combat feat specific to heavy blades. Table variation will occur though.
Probably the following:
Close Quarters Thrower
Def Wep Trning
False Opening
Impaling Crit, and Improved
Improved Crit
Rapid Reload
Wep Spec, and Greater
Shield Spec, and Greater
Deadly Stroke
Dazzling Display
Feral Combat Training..probably
Point Blank Master
Shatter Defenses
...for the resources I have access to
I think the key is weapon choice within a group.
So, I'm doubtful that it applies to Cornugon Shield, or Cornugon Trip.
Feral Combat Training might be a really good one, actually, if you wanted to do a natural attack focused Monk or something.
Heh heh.
Net fun with Whirlwind Strike and Sling Flail!
Prone Slinger now Prone Human Fighter Throw Anything.
Best is Shields, Spiked Armor, and Unarmed Strike all in Close weapon group. Adder Strike, Bleeding Attack, Cruader's Fist, or Hex/Sorcerous Strike with a shield bash! Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus while naked or spiky!
you could take it for Quarterstaff Master...
this started as a joke post about being able to specialize in any monk weapon if you could somehow get MV (a joke because both have the same prereq- Fighter 4), but it turns out there is a valid application here (albeit, kind of a corner case)... it would allow you to use any double weapon in one hand; so a TWF (with IUS) could attack with both ends of a two-bladed sword when he's not worried about taking damage, but could switch to using it one-handed if he felt he needed a hand free for deflect arrows or crane wing. or you could just use it to 1hand an orcish double-axe... that's gotta give some kind of circumstance bonus to intimidate, lol.
edit: in all seriousness though- the best application i've seen so far is with EWP to open up all exotic heavy blades. that's certainly not a game changer but it opens up some interesting options and is cool if you want to make a guy who's like a master of all blades...
It won't work on them.
In addition, Shield Specialization already applies to all shields that you use, so it's pointless to wonder if MV works for it.
MV/MM is a waste of feats. All of the feats you invest into a single weapon will nullify any need for other weapons to specialize in, the whole point of MV/MM from the original author.
In other words; Scimitar is still the best Dexterity weapon in the game.
A Shield is a weapon, and in a Fighter Weapon group.
Also, why would it not work with the other feats listed?
Shield Specialization? No it wouldn't.
...MV/MM is a waste of feats. All of the feats you invest into a single weapon will nullify any need for other weapons to specialize in, the whole point of MV/MM...
Except when you have another weapon in the same group with different properties. For instance, you could use Serpent Lash with a kyoketsu shoge or bladed scarf instead of a whip and not have to worry about doing nonlethal damage. Or use unarmed strike feats with any of the other weapons in the close group. As I see it, the "whole point" is to open up weapons that aren't über leet optimal to being useful with more feats. Making switch-hitters better is just a side effect.
So, if an option seems not so obvious, it's likely going to be fought if it works RAW or not?
That seems a bit odd, if at the same time, it's fought to be proven useful.
Sounds a bit self defeatist, huh?
The best use for transforming something like DD from Scimitar to another weapon is higher damage dice or some piddly extra weapon type property. The Dexterity being applied to those other weapons is the same as if you weren't applying it to a Scimitar. So it's not worth the feat tax to use a weapon that is, in truth, inferior to just sticking with the Scimitar.
In addition, MV doesn't allow you to bypass conditions set by the feat. If it says you select a thrown weapon, the feat can only work if the weapon is of the Thrown Weapon Group (because you otherwise aren't choosing a Thrown weapon, and thusly is not a weapon you can choose).
Also, I've tried it already. I just lost the energy to continue it, when I realized what I was fighting for wasn't really anything at all.
I am a bit surprised by the number of negative reactions.
Is there something, offensive, about the feat, that I missed.
Because the team that was for the use of MV with Dervish Dance lost. There is a statement where one of the devs mentions MV is only supposed to be used with feats where you make a choice in the weapon, instantly shoving MV's cool factor down the hole.
Retraining is already a better version of this and costs no feats. Martial Versatility is lousy. So are dozens of other feats. No big deal.
Retraining is already a better version of this and costs no feats. Martial Versatility is lousy. So are dozens of other feats. No big deal.
Your GM is super nice to allow you to retrain Dervish Dance to function with virtually any weapon in the Heavy Blades fighter weapon group!
Retraining is already a better version of this and costs no feats. Martial Versatility is lousy. So are dozens of other feats. No big deal.Your GM is super nice to allow you to retrain Dervish Dance to function with virtually any weapon in the Heavy Blades fighter weapon group!
It doesn't.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ldcu&page=3?Versatility-is-a-Human %20-Virtue#121I think she(?) meant that you could simply retrain to switch the benefits of your feats over.
Retraining is already a better version of this and costs no feats. Martial Versatility is lousy. So are dozens of other feats. No big deal.Your GM is super nice to allow you to retrain Dervish Dance to function with virtually any weapon in the Heavy Blades fighter weapon group!
As was said, it doesn't actually do that with Dervish Dance. But retraining can fix the problem this feat was supposed to solve--specifically, "you can pick a category instead of a specific weapon for Weapon Focus now in case your GM doesn't tailor loot to your weapon preferences!"
The problem is you're taking a freelancer's word as Word of God. Jason's an awesome guy, but he's not one of the Paizo developers who make the decisions that you are leaving to Jason, so he's not qualified to have the credence that you are applying to him. You can take the word of the freelancer if you choose to, but it is by no means official unless Paizo rules in his favor.
(FYI, on several occasions Paizo has in fact ruled against Jason's "author's intent" posts when his intent simply did not match the text he submitted to Paizo, such as in this scenario.)
My real question is this: "Who cares if you can do cool stuff like Dervish Dance with something besides a scimitar with this feat?" That's the definition of versatility and considering you are dumping three to four feats into this combo it hardly seems overpowered. (Those feats are Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Martial Weapon Versatility, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.) And if the feat sucks unless you let it do cool mix-ups like this, why would you purposefully neuter it?
In my humble opinion, there's a huge number of weapons in the game that should be finesse-able but aren't. Katanas are a perfect example, as historically they are extremely brittle swords that required years of training just so you'd master the art of swinging the weapon without causing it to shatter on impact.
I don't see any reason why Dervish Dance wouldn't work with Martial Versatility. MV applies to feats that "apply to a single weapon" not feats where "you must choose one weapon that the feat's effect applies to" or any other wording.
Dervish Dance applies to a single weapon. Done.
So far as Jason Nelson's comments in the linked threat, while they are educational as far as the intent of the feat, they do not change the wording of it nor serve as errata. I am sure plenty of rules do not function the way they were intended. Heck, if everything functioned like the author's intended we wouldn't have so many rules arguments since the wording would be clear and there wouldn't be contradictory rules.
We are left with what is written (and errata). And, of course, GM fiat.
The problem is you're taking a freelancer's word as Word of God. Jason's an awesome guy, but he's not one of the Paizo developers who make the decisions that you are leaving to Jason, so he's not qualified to have the credence that you are applying to him. You can take the word of the freelancer if you choose to, but it is by no means official unless Paizo rules in his favor.
(FYI, on several occasions Paizo has in fact ruled against Jason's "author's intent" posts when his intent simply did not match the text he submitted to Paizo, such as in this scenario.)
My real question is this: "Who cares if you can do cool stuff like Dervish Dance with something besides a scimitar with this feat?" That's the definition of versatility and considering you are dumping three to four feats into this combo it hardly seems overpowered. (Those feats are Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Martial Weapon Versatility, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.) And if the feat sucks unless you let it do cool mix-ups like this, why would you purposefully neuter it?
In my humble opinion, there's a huge number of weapons in the game that should be finesse-able but aren't. Katanas are a perfect example, as historically they are extremely brittle swords that required years of training just so you'd master the art of swinging the weapon without causing it to shatter on impact.
I can either trust his thoughts on the matter, or go with the general consensus on the boards. They tend to match up. While I'm all for Dervish Dance getting to be applied to other weapons, another poster said something I agree with quite a bit in that, "Racial feats suck since they pigeonhole you into a certain build."
I want the most effective animal companion as possible. That means if I want a creature with the celestial template, I *have* to be an aasimar or be a human whose flavored with aasimar descent and takes an extra feat. Alas I'm getting off topic.
Unfortunately the feat is still bad so I don't mind so much. A fighter is probably one of the least benefited by the ruling whom it favors.
@Samasboy1
What? No! Many moves for using a katana are nearly identical to ones in German fencing. Picture (warning, pretty big)Of course, Scimitars aren't exactly "small" or "light" and D&D has no idea what a "longsword" is .
I do agree on "the feat has no point if it can't do this, and by the level you CAN use it like this, casters are doing much worse" though.
Huh? I don't understand your response as applying to what I said.
If you are referring to the "Dervish Dance applies to a single weapon. Done." I was only pointing out that Dervish Dance applies to a single weapon and so meets the RAW requirement for MV.
But it doesn't seem like that is what you are saying, so I think you may actually be replaying to someone else's comment. Maybe Alexander's post above mine, or Scavion's quote of the same?
Definitely not Net Adept or Focused Shot. And not Dervish Dance either, I don't understand where people are getting that from.
It should work on Rapid Reload though.
The point of the feat is not "any feat that specifies a weapon can be changed!"
The point is, if you have to choose a specific weapon for a feat, Martial Versatility expands it to work on a group instead.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group
But that isn't what it SAYS. Its says any feat that applies to a specific weapon, NOT any feat that applies to a specific weapon you choose.
While I agree that it SHOULDN"T apply, by the wording of the feat it DOES.
It isn't a terrible feat for money low campaigns (like if the fighter finds a really nice impact scimitar, but has feats in the longsword) or for Magi dervish dancing bastard swords/katanas.
The bolded part is not only impossible, but also pointless since the Scimitar functions for the same exact purpose, except the character doesn't need to spend feats for it, and even if they do, they get at best increased damage dice (which is pointless for a Magus).
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The bolded part is not only impossible, but also pointless since the Scimitar functions for the same exact purpose, except the character doesn't need to spend feats for it, and even if they do, they get at best increased damage dice (which is pointless for a Magus).
And it also lets you avoid being a "Cookie Cutter" Magus, Get better damage when you can't get your spells in, and I have found no OFFICIAL ruling so far. Just debate. If you can show me something official (other than unofficial comments like the one already shown) then please do. It isn't cheese or OP, just less cookie-cutter.
Also, as others have mentioned you can get stuff like close quarters thrower and prone slinger and feral combat training (should be nice for martial artist/druid multiclasses). Defensive weapon training and Imp. Crit are both nice with this too.
As I've mentioned previously, this feat is a god damn embarrassment to the idea of "professional writers". 3.5 forums had exactly this discussion 6 f~&!ing years ago, with Adaptive weapons. Writing a version of Martial Versatility that avoids this is trivially easy.
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As I've mentioned previously, this feat is a g*! d%~n embarrassment to the idea of "professional writers". 3.5 forums had exactly this discussion 6 f$!$ing years ago, with Adaptive weapons. Writing a version of Martial Versatility that avoids this is trivially easy.
Let's look at everything wrong with this post.
#1 — Referencing a problem that a separate edition of the game had, on a forum that most of us have likely never seen or read.
#2 – Edit: I originally called you out for "swearing, then censoring to be cute," but I didn't realize that the Paizo forums auto-censors profanity. That doesn't change how inappropriate your swearing is, but the fault is mine for making a mistake. If only I had the urge to swear more on this forum during the four years that I have been a member of the Paizo Community! D:
#3 — You cite a problem (something with adaptive weapons), claim that Martial Versatility causes this same problem, say that the problem is easy to fix, but don't tell me what the problem is or what the "easy" fix is.
There is literally nothing constructive about your post. At all. I can't find a single redeeming factor that even humors the idea that you might be trying to participate in an intelligent conversation, as virtually everyone in this thread before you has been very civil in the discussion. Thanks for breaking that for absolutely no reason.
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I was actually wondering about something with Martial Versatility/Mastery. Does anyone knows if Martial Versatility used on Weapon Focus (Pistol) to make it work with all firearms would then allow Snap Shot (from Ultimate Combat,) to be used with all firearms?
Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat
I don't think so, since it says "in which you have Weapon Focus", which is effectively what Martial Versatility is. It would be easier to just grab Weapon Focus though, since it gives you that.
yeah it would:
- martial versatility says "You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group."
- snap shot applies to any ranged weapon with which you have focus (and does not need to be taken more than once for multiple weapons)
MV would have no effect on snap shot but would work if applied to focus. (if MV said something like 'you gain the benefit of...' you could argue that wasn't enough but as written it definitely would)
@Nate Lange - That was my thinking on it. I was wondering what others would say and I think it may be a split between "it would work" or "you would need to take MV on Snap Shot(SH)" but if it is deemed I would need MV on SH. I would just want to take Martial Mastery (MM) then, in that case.
I still want to know what others think on that interactivity on those feats.
@Vritra Not if I want to use a combination of three or more Firearms.
Then I could take MM and any additional feats that specify A weapon then work on all weapons in that weapon group.
@ArmouredMonk13 - You don't pick a specific weapon with Snap Shot, though. It just says with a Ranged weapon that you have Weapon focus with.