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If you do a google search on plate armor you will find several historical examples of armor worn by men that had defined pectorals and even some six-pack-abs (Alexander's armor, for example).
So "boob plate", from a functional sense, was also worn by men.
So, I've got a question, since this is apparently all about the evil male gaze and all that...
Is using a miniature with boob plate or a chain mail bikini "badwrongfun?"
thejeff, this is what came up when I did a search on "Alexander the Great armor"
Is using a miniature with boob plate or a chain mail bikini "badwrongfun?"
Imo? Nope! I'm okay with shirtless guys or chainmail bikinis in my games. I would rather have both than one or the other however. I like the idea that its an option rather than the only option too, that way everyone can be happy(except those people that think other people using those minis ruins their fun I guess).
"Sexism" talk completely uninterested me when I realized PC nightmares aren't fun. I'm perfectly fine with boobplate, if people want it. (Even though I hate it almost as much as friggin oversized pauldrons)
I separate my games from my real world, because games are meant as a form of escapism. To a world where you don't have to deal with real life bull like dying when you're stabbed in the heart. But every time someone talks about "objectification" in games like it's the end of the world, it doesn't make me think about my beliefs, it makes me say "Let me make sure never to play Pathfinder with that person because they're just dragging around political baggage everywhere and being a creeper"
If you don't like games because the people in it are sexy, that's fine, I'm all for having your own preferences, just stop acting like RTS-mlg-pro who just saw someone play Call of Duty and is on a rampage, and then we ALL have fun
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Alright, boys. Don't paint me as a puritan now.
It's shocking to see how much boobplate specifically means to some people. But sure, I'm the creeper.
Look, this isn't about not including sexy in your game. The magus example is a class that doesn't wear heavy armor. He has every right to be showing off his abs and biceps. In fact, it may affect his arcane casting not to. ;)
If you want to put your "heavily-armored" female characters in unfittingly skimpy armor or form-fitting armor or what have you at your own gaming table... go right ahead. But please don't try to disguise it as rescuing the virtues of a genre from the clutches of "overbearing PC meddlers".
Be honest and admit that boobplate turns you on. Would you have it in your game for any other reason?
Look, this isn't about not including sexy in your game. The magus example is a class that doesn't wear heavy armor. He has every right to be showing off his abs and biceps. In fact, it may affect his arcane casting not to. ;)
Only if he's a kensai! Guy's going around without chainmail even. Again, not that I mind...
Be honest and admit that boobplate turns you on. Would you have it in your game for any other reason?
Well, to be perfectly honest I've never had an item called 'boobplate' in my game. I've had plenty of breastplates. In fact if my guy wears armor he's probably going to wear a breastplate. I'd actually rather a player come up with a crazy Gothic Lolita style Dress/Full plate hybrid with cool boots and a nice hat than a crude boobplate. To save time I'd much rather they just write 'breastplate' than any of that mess though, for the sake of mechanics, simplicity, and character sheet space...
As far as I'm concerned the way you describe your armor is pretty separate to what you actually wear, except in egregious examples such as saying your wearing a full suit of metal knight armor on your wizard who has '+1 shirt' written on his character sheet.
I'd actually rather a player come up with a crazy Gothic Lolita style Dress/Full plate hybrid with cool boots and a nice hat
Now, that would be absurd. Not that I wouldn't like to see it...
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People who complain that there is not enough realism in fantasy games just don't get the point of fantasy games.
People who complain that there is not enough realism in fantasy games just don't get the point of fantasy games.
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Don't like it then don't use it.
It's your fantasy game, go ahead and flavour the fantasy any way you want, no one is stopping you.
Don't like chain bikins? Don't wear one.
Boob plate is not inherently and always a "male gaze" thing. It's a purely aesthetic thing and sadly it is often used to present female characters as objects, but an outright ban on it would be silly. It's part of an extremely versatile language of symbols and it can be used to mean more than one thing. Look at Seelah, for example. Are those sexy? Are they meant to be? I think not. They are there for two reasons:
1.) To look good. Not necessarily to look hot, but certainly to look good in the same way her boots do. It's a showy, ornate suit with plenty of adornments that would probably get in the way or weight her down in real life.
2.) To reinforce her identity as a woman. She's covered up with metal and her hair looks short from the front, but she's not supposed to look androgynous or masculine. Her armour boobs don't just make it more obvious that she's female, they also make it clear that she's not a masculine woman, or a woman in a man's role. I don't know if there's a story behind that outfit or not, but I'm pretty confident it wasn't made for somebody who looks like Valeros.
I too hate that argumentMe too, but I hear it so much I figured I'd just get it out there early.
In this case though, I actually am fine with magical boob plate armor. It IS magic. Mundane boob plate should get a -1 AC penalty though.
Because "realism".
If extra pointy, may deflect crossbow bolts.
I'd actually rather a player come up with a crazy Gothic Lolita style Dress/Full plate hybrid with cool boots and a nice hatNow, that would be absurd. Not that I wouldn't like to see it...
I'd say I have a character styled like that but I think that belongs in the confessions thread... I really like writing lengthy descriptions of costumes and making them memorable. That said, when I made the character for pathfinder I wrote mithral breastplate on the sheet.
I am far more into lamellar and brigandine.
Boobplate may go, but don't ever try to take the boobandine.
Really, there are far more insidious things in fantasy art than boob plate. I'd say it is the least of the offenses.
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But it really gets the uptight tightened.
A ninja laughing at overly tight people, that fits.
A ninja laughing at overly tight people, that fits.
yeah, that one's particularly shifty...
This article wasn't wrong, but is speaking to the verisimilitude view of the issue alone.
Agreed, but so many elements of verisimilitude are sacrificed for the sake of fantasy that boobplate does not appear to be worst than any other.
Boobplate is different from other elements of fantasy insofar as it can affect the (too often derogatory and exploitative) image of woman in RPG/fantasy, but that has nothing to do with verisimilitude.
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Next I'll be told my anatomically correct codpiece is "unrealistic". The functionality of said codpiece is without question and has served me well in battle.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Codpiece_of_Attention_(3.5e_Equipment)
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The existence of boobplate means women can't be real fighters? I think that only works if boobplate is the exclusive armor for sale for women and all males have boring but practical armor.
"Please dress them sensibly for that?"
My skirmisher rogue opted for padded armour. Not very sensible, not maximising his defensive capabilities, and he was that type of reckless sod. He rocked the non-sensible choice well, and ran away when things got too tough in melee, oh no, he wasn't a paragon of tough masculinity.
Another rogue went a simple leather armour vest and boots. He liked his arms free, didn't want anything messing with any of his checks or his line of sight and sitting on his head. There are plenty of reasons including what our characters would want, for a character to go low or partial in the armour department.
A female char in boobplate and a lot of skin exposed. Maybe they want -1 AC, -1 armour check penalty? It is quite easy for a dm to factor this all in. It can make sense with the setting and background too, "I keep my armour light according to the traditions of my people".
If that same char wants to go heavy field plate, then as shown and described in the PF material, there won't be much skin on display. Is heavy more sensible for a female character? Depends. Do you want more skill check penalties? Is that sensible?
http://oglaf.com/breastplate/
Alright, boys. Don't paint me as a puritan now.
It's shocking to see how much boobplate specifically means to some people.
it means a lot. A whole lot.
Agreed.
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My question: Why should the females depicted in Pathfinder (or most other RPG) art be attired reasonably/sensibly/realistically? The males quite often are attired just as ludicrously.
There is a difference between outfits that are sexy and lolawesome, and outfits that are flat-out exploitation. The implications of boobplate are that even in battle women must prove their femininity or else they are considered to be wearing "men's armor".
I personally am far less annoyed with Seoni's outfit than I am with any character wearing boobplate. Seoni is a sorceress whose class features do encourage drawing her with a lack of armor. Though she is a "Ms. Fanservice" character, it doesn't come off as mind-numbingly stupid as putting a fighter in boobplate.
Female Warrior: Yes, blacksmith. I'll wear this armor. I was afraid that nobody would know I was a women when I'm smashing in the skulls of goblins. Thank you for understanding that my gender matters more than my competence.
I don't think boob-plate is "instant maximum sexism". The one person wearing boob-plate, Seelah? It's not sexy. If anything, it looks pretty elegant.
And considering "sexiness", maybe it's hard to notice for people that aren't into men, but the males are sexy too. It's a pretty even spread of sexy characters.
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I work in a standard business environment in a major multi-national corporation. I work with highly professional people.
In general there is an extremely significant difference in the overt sexual appeal of the clothes that are worn in our work environment, (which I am pretty confident is very representative of the generic work environment across most of Western Civilization).
The difference is that men all tend to wear very similar and business-appropriate clothing, ranging from your classic suit and tie, to the more common Dockers and button-up collared shirt.
While many women dress in a very similar manner, there is a very significant subset of women who wear highly suggestive and sexually provocative clothing. This is something that I honestly cannot ever remember seeing a man do, but a significant number of women do. As a manager I never once had a complaint come to me about one of my male employees wearing sexually provocative clothing, but I have had instances of people complaining about the clothing that some women wear. Research I've seen on this subject indicates that this is not unusual in the workplace.
So, in the context of this discussion, what does this reveal about our culture? And if it reveals anything about our culture, does it have any relevance to this specific discussion about sexually provocative armor?
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The reason why boobplate is the subject of argument, while oversized swords aren't, has to do with the context. Boobplate is an objectification trope towards women, and ultimately it is there for the sex appeal. Contrast with a big sword, which doesn't objectify anyone.
The issue is mostly that boob plate sends two very clear messages.
1. Women can't be real fighters or have real armor. They have to be SEXY fighters, even when it would get them hurt or killed. Women only exist in RPG's to be eye candy for the men. They are objects of gaze, frivolous and ineffective decorations, not the real heroes like men are. Only men get to wear real adventuring gear and armor that actually works. Women have to wear peek-a-boo outfits and look pretty at all times.
2. This product is intended for men to use and buy and look at and enjoy. It's not intended for women to enjoy.
Well, you know, the author of that piece and many others here are wrong. It is interesting that the best she could do in 'realistic' armor is from a movie.
From the 5th century BC thru the next one thousand years men wore the “Muscle Cuirass” which had idealized muscles often even with nipples and the navel depicted. Indeed, it was heavier than other armor and indeed, weapons could catch on the indentations, ridges etc.
But- it was worn to impress. And note, it was in use for at least a thousand years. True, the common foot soldier didn’t wear it, it was mostly for officers and elite units, but it was fairly common. And, it was even used in battle, not just for parades. (Great Officers of that period knew it was important for their men to be able to SEE them, which is why Nelson wore all his medals etc the day he was killed).
So, saying that “Boob plate armor” is sexist… is well…sexist. Men wore armor to impress, so are we saying women can’t do the same?
So “boob plate” armor would be worn to impress, just like the “Muscle Cuirass” was worn- for 1000 years.
There's nothing sexist about it, in fact it's more realistic than otherwise.
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There's nothing sexist about it, in fact it's more realistic than otherwise.
Do you think that men should trust women when they say they think something is sexist?
Or do you think they should be quiet and just accept what men's opinions on what is and isn't sexist?
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If someone tells you something is sexist, and you disagree, then you're g~##~@n right I think you should make your opinion known. Just because one woman might find something sexist, that doesn't mean it's a universal opinion. And if you avoid all behavior that anyone could possibly find offensive, then I hope you enjoy your coma.
Although there might be someone out there who takes offense to people being in a coma. :P
If women should NEVER be told that their opinion on something is worthless, then why should a man suffer the same?
There's nothing sexist about it, in fact it's more realistic than otherwise.On what grounds are you saying the author of the piece is wrong? I can personally testify to the physics of wearing various kinds of plate armor, with and without padding, and how it interacts with hard objects (stage steel or rattan) intersecting it at high speed. The author is absolutely correct.
A single smooth curve will turn a blade. Boob curves on a chestplate are deadly dangerous *to the person inside that kind of armor*, both because of how the force is distributed when a blade strikes them and because of what happens if you fall forward onto it or take a heavy blow across a wide area of it, and the point of impact is focused on your sternum instead of distributed out towards the sides.
Ab armor? Not so much. Jangly medals on the chest and some etchings or ripples down towards the abdomen aren't optimal, but they also aren't an automatic death trap. Boob armor is. Seriously. If you don't believe me, put some on (it doesn't matter if you actually have boobs or not) and get into a serious rattan fight. You'll have to get an equally disbelieving buddy to help, because SCA marshals will not let you on the field for insurance reasons if you are wearing improper gear that puts you at high risk of injury.
How dumb do you have to be to voluntarily wear deathtrap armor that is effectively spiked on the inside to f&%$# its wearer up, versus armor with a single smooth curve that effectively turns blades and won't automatically punch the entire force of any wide blow into a small area of your sternum? If by 'realistic' you mean 'will realistically get you hurt or killed', then sure, it's realistic.
My friend, not only am I a heavy weapons fighter and a Marshal but also been playing so long they made me a Pelican quite some time ago. I problably have garb older than you....Admittedly the freon cans & carpet were't quite so pretty....
Look at some “Muscle Cuirass” versions, they have some pretty large cup sizes going for them, not to mention large protruding nipples, even! How Dumb do you have to be? How dumb was Ceasar or Alexander the Great?
It’s “realistic” as males wore it for ONE THOUSAND YEARS. True, mostly to impress, yes, but “dress to impress” is important.
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Original article is not peer reviewed... So we are basing our "facts" on anicdotal evidence. Or we is using what somebodize said on teh intarwebz as da science....
That also goes for Dr D as nice as his first hand experience is its still anecdotal.
So until a proper study is done I dont believe either side.
I like boobs and I wish to see more of them, big ones, small ones, wobbly ones firm ones they are all aestheticly pleasing to me.
So vote boobs.