Vampire Template and Skills.

[TheRipper]

Hi,
I'm working on an evil NPC (a vampire succubus) and I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out her new skills.

Vampire Template (PRD) wrote:

Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented). Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves.

Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks.

Skills are not listed as one of the "do not recalculate" features, but the Skills section does not explicitly say how many skill points per HD the creature gets or its class skills (unlike, for example, the Half-Celestial/Dragon/Fiend templates). In addition, the vampire gains +2 INT which should give her another 8 skill points. So how many skill points does a vampire succubus have?

1. Outsider skills = 8x(6+5)
2. Undead skills = 8x(4+5)
3. Unchanged (ignore the +2 INT) = 8x(6+4)

I guess it's a question of "do everything you're told to do" or "do everything you're not told not to do".

On a sidenote: The vampire template seems to be the only template that says not to recalculate class HD. All other state HD in general (without the "class"). And does that apply to the HD only or to the BAB and saves as well (i.e. recalculate the outsider BAB/saves to undead BAB/saves)?

[Mojorat]

My guess is you keep the existing outsider skills then add the increase for the +2 int. Mainly because it doesn't make sense for her to get less skills.

[Skylancer4]

First your NPC would actually lose skill points unfortunately. I was looking for reasons it wouldn't, but because the template changes the type to undead (augmented) and there is nothing to the effect of skills "not being recalculated" you have to recalculate. It is an exception based rule set, the rules tell you what to do unless another rule makes an exception. Basically as you said 'do everything you're told to do' is what it comes down to.

Secondly your sidenote, this phrase actually makes sure the vampire template is at least an 'upgrade' to the base creature and maintains the increase in CR for difficulty. At least that is how I see it. Normally an undead creature would go to medium BAB, has only 1 good save, and has middle of the road HD. If applied to a creature with all good saves, good BAB and better HD, the change would be a downgrade, making the creature less powerful but yet worth more XP.

Your NPC would retain BAB from outsider racial HD, as well as the good saves it had (I think Ref/Will) and the racial HD would remain d8's.

[TheRipper]

The main reason for my confusion is that the vampire template does not fit the pattern of other templates. If a template changes the creature's type it tells you what not to recalculate and then lists the missing features (HD, BAB, saves, or skills) in the corresponding sections.

Examples for "do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves":
Fey Creature, Half-Celestial, Half-Dragon, and Half-Fiend. They all list a "Skills" section with skill points per HD and class skills.

Examples for "do not recalculate BAB, saves, or skill ranks":
Lich and Worm That Walks. They have a "Hit Dice" section on how to handle the new hit dice.

The only other template that does not fit this pattern seems to be Animal Lord which, oddly enough, has the same phrase as the vampire template "do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves" (notice the "class" term; thus vampire is not the only one with it).

EDIT: Found a vampire succubus in "The Moonscar" and, if I didn't fail my math, she kept her outsider skill points. Though she didn't get Knowledge (planes) as a class skill.

Skylancer4 wrote:

Secondly your sidenote, this phrase actually makes sure the vampire template is at least an 'upgrade' to the base creature and maintains the increase in CR for difficulty. At least that is how I see it. Normally an undead creature would go to medium BAB, has only 1 good save, and has middle of the road HD. If applied to a creature with all good saves, good BAB and better HD, the change would be a downgrade, making the creature less powerful but yet worth more XP.

Your NPC would retain BAB from outsider racial HD, as well as the good saves it had (I think Ref/Will) and the racial HD would remain d8's.

My sidenote was aimed at the term "class" before "Hit Dice". Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. This makes it actually worse than other templates that just say "Hit Dice" in general, because I have to recalculate my D10s (outsider) to D8s (undead).

[Skylancer4]

Class HD/saves/skills shouldn't ever really be recalculatedly honestly. Templates are pretty much alterations to the creature (and templates & adjustment to it). Obviously there are probably exceptions given the nature of the game ;)

As for HD, I missed the class part when I was flipping back and forth on d20pfsrd. So you are missing out on a 1hp per HD. Though the immunities of undead, among other benefits make it a rather minor thing.

Regarding the published vamp succubus, even Paizo products have mistakes in them. The people writing up the creatures aren't always 'rules lawyers' and things slip through the cracks so to speak. The point about being an exception based game stands. When you have a base 'something' and later another rule says to do something, you do what it says even if it alters the original 'something' out of the typical.