Hello all!
Don't get me wrong, I really like Paizo's adventures, after all, if I didn't I wouldn't be here, but there are some things they keep repeating that really get on my nerves.
One of those, fortunately few, things is the insistence of using letters from villains to subordinates which explain crucial secrets / give essential pointers, as methods of forwarding the adventure to its next stage.
Now, some times this may be logical. I mean, not all villains are smart, right? Or maybe the hints lie hidden in the midst of some other type of information that the subordinate had to keep or didn't even have but the PCs acquired through other means.
Some times, though, as is the case of "Worldwound Incursion - Handout 1", it's plainly ridiculous. Is there any reason for a cult's cell leader to send a letter to his subordinate containing all the necessary information (locations, passphrase) for the authorities to uproot his cult? And even if there is, why did the subordinate keep the letter and not destroy it? Why was the information not encoded somehow?
I can understand the reasons for Paizo doing that (adventure page space, some players might have difficulties following subtler hints, etc.), still...
Anyway... my question, thus, is: How would you approach the "Worldwound Incursion - Handout 1" situation, without giving the PCs all those blatant information? How would you point them to the right direction, using subtler methods?
Maybe they could encounter cultists above, in Kenabres, and follow them towards one of the safe houses? Or might they find something in Hossila's things that they could relate to some specific place or person? Or... ???
So... what would you do?
As always, your insight is appreciated!
I think you raise a fair point. What comes to mind for me as a possible solution is if the cultists were indeed using a code & the handout is the letter properly translated as per RAW Bluff:
i.e. "Secret Messages: You can use Bluff to pass hidden messages along to another character without others understanding your true meaning by using innuendo to cloak your actual message. The DC of this check is 15 for simple messages and 20 for complex messages. If you are successful, the target automatically understands you, assuming you are communicating in a language that it understands. If your check fails by 5 or more, you deliver the wrong message. Other creatures that receive the message can decipher it by succeeding at an opposed Sense Motive check against your Bluff result."
I realize that this section was designed for charade types of secret messages but it still provides a framework for players to decipher a coded cultist letter.
They're probably afraid of 'locking' content that the players need to progress further in the adventure behind a die roll that can be failed and can't be retried, or something.
However, since this is a mythic tale, a bit of abusing dramatic coincidence is allowable. So, have it indeed be a coded message, but have it happen that the lead cultist has the code book out on his desk and be working actively to decrypt the message at the time he's interrupted by violent strangers. So while normally the message would have been secure, as you'd have had to make a difficult Search check to find the decryption materials in the guy's quarters /or/ a difficult Sense Motive or Linguistics check to decode the message raw, as it happens its a DC 0 Search check to spot the codebook just lying there out in the open.
Hmmm... interesting thoughts from both of you! The handout / message is supposed to be several weeks old so Hossila should not really be decoding *that* message, but maybe she has received some new orders and is using the handout as a guide to decode them. This actually gives a reason for her to keep the handout, as a guide to decode further messages.
The code should probably be rather difficult to break at 1st-2nd lvl even using the guide (unless we invent more orders for the cultists!), but we now have a valid reasoning for why such a handout exists at all.
A Sense Motive / Knowledge (Local) check may also serve to recognize / identify the specific buildings / establishments mentioned in the message, in case the GM doesn't feel good mentioning actual names and the NPCs may actually earn their salt here.
Excellent thoughts my friends!
Any other ideas?
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Look at it this way. The PCs HAVE to learn about what the cultists are up to, and while overhearing a cultist talk to a boss or capturing one alive may be a more realistic way to convey that information... that's not something every group will do. Or even THINK to do, frankly. Letters like the ones you mention are really a sort of "plot insurance" that we use in order to make sure that even if the party does nothing but kill monsters and take their stuff and doesn't roleplay at all that they'll still get enough of the storyline to go on.
Encoding the letter is a good idea. Secret page is an easy way to handle that. But you don't want to make finding the information out SO tough that the players get frustrated and lose interest in the story!
Taking advantage of when PCs capture enemies is another great option; let the PCs learn information from captured cultists during interrogations. If they ask the right questions, you won't need the letter as plot insurance at all.
And in the end... actually, yes, at these lower levels, some of the cultists actually ARE that stupid. Although I think arrogant is a better choice of words—they've had a century or so of success after success after all, and the idea that there might finally be a group of mythic heroes rising to significantly challenge them does indeed catch the Worldwound off guard. The most significant example of this is in the adventure itself, when...
So in a way, having the cultists be arrogant/stupid/whatever in these early adventures and then grow more and more careful or deliberate in their actions against the PCs as the PCs prove over and over that they mean business is not only a pretty realistic way to model the arrogance of an enemy that, over the course of a century, has never really faced opposition that really challenges it, but also gives the players the satisfaction of feeling bad-ass and better than those dim-witted and egotistical cultists.
Small note: Maybe it WAS coded. And she decrypted the code by writing the actual message below the encryption. She didn't destroy it because she brought the note with her and no one knew she was a cultist at the time (outside of the other cultists). She was underground with a bunch of Mongrelmen with her. Why would she expect an attack? (Also, her Intelligence is 8. She's not exactly the brightest of bulbs.)
James Jacobs wrote: Encoding the letter is a good idea. Secret page is an easy way to handle that. But you don't want to make finding the information out SO tough that the players get frustrated and lose interest in the story! Thanks for the feedback James. The concept of having 'plot insurance' is obvious once you think about it: the writer(s) have to ensure that there are enough breadcrumbs for the players to follow. I'd say it's a crucial design element to keep the game going.
Regarding your warning to not make simply finding the information the difficult part, I was reminded of Pelgrane's Gumshoe System:
http://www.pelgranepress.com/?page_id=672
I am curious as to what you think of it as well as how aspects of it might be incorporated into Pathfinder games.
Yup, and in my experience, it's best to make those load-bearing plot points pretty obvious and easy to find and follow up on, since it's better for a party to get the info and think it was too easy rather than to not get the info and have the game stop or hit a dead end.
The best way to incorporate that into a Pathifnder game isn't via a ruleset, I don't think, but by a philosophy. Know what are the important key bits of info you need the PCs to learn, and then keep that in mind as you run the game. Make a list of the info and when they have to learn it by, and if they don't learn it organically, then you can always have a dumb cultist drop a note! :P
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Philosophy 1st, ruleset 2nd. Gotya.
Of course even if a DM has to go with the 'dumb cultist dropping a note,' we can use creative ways to actually have this happen.
For example, maybe as the PCs burst in, one of the cultists frantically tries to get to the fireplace- to burn the secret note. They have to stop him or the fire before it consumes the letter.
Or maybe the note itself while written in simple Common, was split into multiple sections. The party has to find enough of the pieces for the message to make sense. You can even cut the printed handout into sections, literally giving a section to the players each time they find one.
Or maybe the dumb cultists don't code their messages because they tattoo them onto skin. So in order for them to 'drop' a note, the cultists have to be taken out. But if they are too damaged, the tattooed writing is damaged or destroyed.
Each of these is a variation on finding the letter but are much more dramatic, as well as creating a skill challenge for the PCs. So sometimes it isn't the individual story element that matters but rather how you present it.
As I've said in my initial post, I understand the reasoning behind this tactic, I just don't like it... :)
I can, of course, change those things in an adventure that I do not like, but first of all, I don't have the time to do so and furthermore, let's be honest, you guys are way better than I am!
So, here's my suggestion! Create these situations in such a way as to provide the players with the means of identifying their goals without resorting to bluntness. I would very much prefer instead of the said handout to have a box indicating possible solutions to the problem of "where do we go next". It could contain some of the ideas mentioned in this thread, it might note interrogating cultists, it might point to some of the Kenabres encounters indicating that it could be used to track cultists to one of their secret houses and maybe there the PCs would be able to find another hint to point to the next target. It would also contain the possibility of a note containing all the necessary information, but, in my opinion, it should be noted in a "if all else fail" clause.
I feel that the majority of your players would prefer this over a blunt "Deus ex machina" plot resolution device, especially if it's used time and again!
All the above being said, I'd like to really, *really* thank you James (and all other Paizo staff) for being there to address our concerns. There are not many major companies (and I believe that Paizo *is* a major company in its respective domain) who treat their customers with the respect I feel I'm getting from Paizo and this is something not to be taken lightly.
Keep up the good work!
I really like DM.com's suggestion. Tattooing the cipher in her arm! That is just so hilarious that it works! :D (and it reflects back to the good old days of trying to write answers on your wrists or arms so you can cheat on a test...)
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
You can usually keep the plot moving by following the Three Clue Rule. Basically, whenever there is something that the players have to learn/obtain to prevent the adventure/campaign from continuing, there should be (at least) three different methods for the group to gain the critical information/object.
A coded message, questioning prisoners, or just plain Diplomacy to gather information on where the cultist safe-houses are provides the "three clues" to keep the plot moving. Some of the methods can provide more details than others, but the locations are the key point, not the password.
They do. And the writers at Paizo may very well have assumed some GMs may have the cultist try to burn the note, thus allowing for extra layers of discovery.
Tangent101 wrote: I really like DM.com's suggestion. Tattooing the cipher in her arm! That is just so hilarious that it works! :D (and it reflects back to the good old days of trying to write answers on your wrists or arms so you can cheat on a test...) Thanks! But who told you how I got through High School Chemistry?!
Dragonchess, thank you for linking to that article! The 'Three Clue Rule' is absolutely wonderful advice. I think there is one bit that is especially true:
"You already know what the solution to the mystery is. This makes it very difficult for you to objectively judge whether something is obvious or not."
To put it another way, when you've read the adventure almost everything is obvious.
I also concur with Marios' feedback on Paizo's staff accessibility.
This occurred to me as well as I was reading.
I agree that maybe the cultists at first are plain dumb: that why they got stuck with these job, that why they need things spelled out to them plain and simple. Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition... or rather, a group of would be heroes surviving and bumbling about in the Kenebreas underground.
The simplest thing to do will be to rewrite the handout, removing specific mention of the safe-houses location and the pass-phrase and leave it at that. Or maybe just these parts are coded, so 1) a linguist could de-code it, 2) a prisoner might be interrogated, or 3) cultists may be followed.
Don't forget the PC's are located in a city of potentially divine -powered foes and soldiers for good. That same information can come from 'Intelligence gathered by our forces' or even from divinations by NPC's and brought to the character's attentions. If you feel its a bit unrealistic or forced the way its presented, there's lots of other options out there - it might even make the scenario feel like a broader war effort, with intelligence coming in from other sources. Just don't overuse it.
I think I will replace the names of the safe houses from the handout with acronyms (e.g. NM for Nyserian Manor etc.) as well as replace the actual passphrase with the words "the same" ("the passphrase remains the same for now") and then use the encounters in Kenabres to steer my players towards the cultist safe houses.
Unfortunately there is no option of interrogating a prisoner as two of the cultists escaped and one died before they managed to stabilize her.
If all else fail my last resort would be a Knowledge (Local) / Wisdom / Intelligence check, either by them or the NPCs as to what might the acronyms stand for.
This should happen next Sunday (or the one after that), so I should soon be able to report how well will it go!
That doesn't really make sense. If NM is used for Nyserian Manor then why would Mr. Snotty Nobleman react to it? And saying "the passphrase remains the same" wouldn't work if she didn't know the password or had forgotten it.
It's simple enough to have the note be in code, and for the villain to have either written the code down elsewhere or have it tattooed on her person because she kept forgetting it. She has an Intelligence of 8, after all. And she's not expecting to be caught.
Well, yeah, but unfortunately Hosila (the "boss") managed to escape so tatoos (which were a really cool idea! I'll definitely use them at some point!) and interrogation can't work... as for having a code, an Int score of 8 would make any code difficult for her to decode even having a codebook. Her superior naturally knew that, so he used a very simple code, that is replace the actual names of the places with the respective acronyms. Even an Int 8 would be enough to allow her to identify the places, since she actually knew about them.
The nobleman won't react more than "wow, cultists in our midst!", not until the party actually figures that NM stands for Nyserian Manor (which I expect to happen when they manage to follow some cultists there).
As for what happens if she were to forget the password? Simply put, the guards in the safe house would kill her. Why would her superior be concerned as long as she delivers the sword to the safe house? (which she will fail to do since in her arrogance she never thought that she might be forced to flee - naturally her life is forfeit as soon as her superior realizes that).
But, of course, this is the way I'm thinking to run this situation and not some kind of ultimate solution! :)
I think the simplest solution is to change the contents of the letter a bit. Rather than the letter saying something along the lines of "Oh and by the way the hideouts that you already know about are here, here, and here, and the password that you already know is still the same one, which is [inset password here]". Perhaps something a bit different is in order.
Something along the lines of "And just so you know, the passwords to the safehouses have changed since you've last been to the surface; the one at [insert location 1 here] is now [insert password 1 here], the one at [insert location 2 here] is now [insert password 2 here], and the one at [insert location 3 here] is now [insert password 3 here]".
...Might be a bit more reasonable if the letter is explaining things that Hosilla legitimately wouldn't know (i.e. passwords that have changed since she fled the surface), and it still benefits the PCs in the same way that the 'stupid cultist' version of the letter does.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Personally, I'd have the PC's approached by a Cultist who is trying to redeem himself. Perhaps, he brings the letters in a bid to get away from the Worldwound and offers it to the PC's for a enough gold to pay for a quiet cariage out of town.
There are dozen's of ways to change around how info gets handed to the PCs. Maybe when he leaves he/she gives the PC's the passwords and locations then. And delete that info from the letter.
I find NPCs the best way to hand out plot critical info.
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