Scrolls and Somatic Components - Two hands?

[Feragore]

I was playing through a Breath of Life scenario in my head where the number of actions is ridiculously important and it came to actually using the scroll.

I did a bit of reading and came across the 'Spell Completion' rules that state the use of final gestures and the Scrolls section that states the specific exclusion of two spell components - "Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus." Note that verbal and somatic are not included. And "Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance." with ASF only ever applying to spells with somatic components.

This seems to indicate that unless you've got some way of reading that scroll without holding it - say, the caster's shield, you need both hands to use a scroll; one to hold the scroll so you can read it, and the other hand free to perform the somatic component.

Maybe one alternative is dropping the scroll and dropping prone to read it from the floor, but that still costs a second move action that would be spent picking up whatever weapon you just dropped.

What's odd is that I'm only finding a handful of discussions about it, and most of them from 3.5 (which in this case PF uses unchanged rules text) despite how awkward this ruling makes scroll-use during combat.

It's also somewhat related to divine casters not being able to cast while using TWF or heavy shields, which I've been unable to find a solution for besides a 3.5 feat.

Are they just two of those completely ignored rules in most games that really shouldn't be there despite pretty strong RAW suggesting otherwise?

[DonDuckie]

Gestures needed to activate scroll are specifically designed to be performed while holding the scroll. Done :)

Maybe not really 'done' - and reading an actual scroll(rolled up parchment/paper) without using two hands or a table and several heavy objects is difficult at the very least. Which brings us to having wood or metal 'bars' on either end(these may be mentioned in the rules).

The way I sometimes play it(when I feel nit-picky):
---identified scroll:
1) hold the scroll in hand - still rolled up
2) say the needed words [verbal, "reading"]
3) wave you hand like using the scroll as a wand to 'fire the spell at a target'[somatic]

---unidentified scroll:
1) hold the scroll in both hands while visualizing awesome succes
2) read from it [verbal, reading]
3) let go with one hand and point a handsign at a target[somatic]
4) hope for the best[skill check]

I really enjoy the 'wave like a wand' thing - it's like a wand with a few different possibly unique charges

[Fomsie]

I just have the somatic component involve brandishing the scroll outstretched as you say the words and have the magic literally "jump off the page".

[Diego Rossi]

Scroll description: "The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide."

That should be enough to keep it open and readable it you keep it suspended from one hand. I suppose the characters or runes are large enough to be easily readable at arm length.

So if you have a light shield or buckler and a free hand you can keep the scroll in your shield hand and wave the other hand around for the somatic component.

Using a large shield or two weapon is often a problem for a caster.
RAW you can use weapon cords for the weapons. I think that having a weapon dangling from your wrist would not be a positive thing when making the spell gestures, but RAW it don't give any definite penalty.
It say:
"Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions."
I would consider the somatic component of spellcasting a fine action, but I am sure plenty of people will disagree.

[DonDuckie]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scroll description: "The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide."

Yeah, I had a vague shadow from a memory regarding something of a nature such as this :)

And am I the only one who thinks that weapon cords are presented as the solution for WAY too many not-really-problems problems?

[Diego Rossi]

Honestly? I hate them.
They similar to a real word object, a lanyard, but don't work in any way like one of those.

The only similar thing I can depict is the loop at the bottom of the climbers hammer.
Very handy in preventing the risk of losing the hammer and as a way to free the hand without stowing the hammer away, but it don't allow you to have the hammer ready to use as a swift action.

Changing it so that the it is still a move action to recover the weapon, but it don't provoke? Sure.
Swift? Hardly.

And "a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions" is too vague. Plenty of people will argue that it don't specify a numerical drawback, so there is no drawback at all.

[Peachbottom]

I like to imagine scroll use like the anime Naruto's summoning scrolls where you shout the spell and slam your palm in the center of the scroll and poof, spell happens. There's no rule support for such, however. So whatever works for you.

[DonDuckie]

Those people would not enjoy my games; If they need it to be a numerical drawback - I know all sorts of numbers ;)