I've got a player whose character is human. When he goes into dark places, he takes his everburning torch and leaves it sticking out of his backpack. This gets him around not beling able to see/having to carry the torch.
My brain wants to scream "Cheese!" but I can't really see why someone couldn't do this. Even if I say "It won't stay in" or something, I'm sure he'd just use rope to tie the torch to the strap.
On the one hand, it seems like a smart simple solution to a problem. On the other hand, why even have vision rules if they're this simple to solve?
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You are not visible from thousands of feet away when using darkvision.
The everburning torch is more expensive than the ioun torch which by default hovers around your head. And continual flame could just as easily be cast on anything other than a torch shaped stick.
like a ring, medalion, buckle, boot, etc.
So having one sticking out a backpack isn't really game breaking.
EDIT: I don't always get ninja'd, but when I do - I get ninja'd by James Jacobs
Wow, I wonder how you'd react to my character's use of a pebble with "continual flame" cast on it stuck in a tube glued to his helmet... The tube has a little cap on it so that he can shut the light off if he wants.
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Fiiine. I suppose it's not that bad. Something about it irks me, but you're all right, it should be fine.
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My brother and I played in a campaign once where we were able to research and create magic items. This was back ages ago in 1e I think. By the time we were through our characters were walking around with flashlights, walkie-talkies, music players, binoculars, magic-missile firing machine guns... I can't remember it all. I do remember needing a bag of holding to carry all of our custom magic item stuff. If I remember correctly the GM finally put his foot down when we began contemplating how to magically split atoms...
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My husband plays a gnome bard/paladin in my game, who has continual flame on his HAIR, paid for at character creation. He is a self-admitted "walking distraction."
So, having an everburning torch sticking out of a backpack isn't the craziest idea I've ever heard. :)
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My husband plays a gnome bard/paladin in my game, who has continual flame on his HAIR, paid for at character creation. He is a self-admitted "walking distraction."
So, having an everburning torch sticking out of a backpack isn't the craziest idea I've ever heard. :)
wait... what??? A gnome bard/paladin???? Is that even possible
**Attempts to envision a little gnome looking all knightly with bard stuff and flaming hair**
**head explodes**
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I don't have a problem with this as a GM. Makes it that much more easy for the sneaky kobolds to snatch away.I've got a player whose character is human. When he goes into dark places, he takes his everburning torch and leaves it sticking out of his backpack. This gets him around not beling able to see/having to carry the torch.
Thus leading to genocide and the extinction of kobolds.
Hey, my fighter paid for it to be cast on his armor spikes, which was one of those Prussian helmet spikes....
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The fact that this thread exists saddens me. Every time I hear a GM talking about how baffled he is that his players are second-guessing or correcting him, weaponizing the rules, or otherwise showing that they don't trust him to provide a fun experience; I think of things like this, where a GM "wants to scream 'Cheese!'" over a friggin' light source.
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It's not cheesy it's common sense.
My character usually has continual flame cast onto a ribbon which she can tie onto anything. She often ties her hair back with it giving her both hands free light AND an awesome appearance. :)
No self-respecting hero should ever be without a glowing sword... Or codpiece. A glowy beard is fine for a dwarf, and EVERYONE looks stylish in a pair of glowing boots.
I'm thinking that my witch needs to start casting "light" on his prehensile hair...
Fiiine. I suppose it's not that bad. Something about it irks me, but you're all right, it should be fine.
Well, remember the main purpose of PCs is to annoy GMs. Arguably the game would be improved by banning players entirely, but until then really the only thing to do is grit your teeth and bear it. At least until you kill 'em all off, which should be no later than room 2 in the dungeon.
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No self-respecting hero should ever be without a glowing sword... Or codpiece. A glowy beard is fine for a dwarf, and EVERYONE looks stylish in a pair of glowing boots.
Comically enough, a group I used to run for did continual flame codpieces for the entire party. They were trying to look like idiots so they could rig the betting at a gladiatorial tournament. I laughed for a full 10 minutes. And I let them auto suceed at forcing the odds for them to win ridiculously high. They made out like bandits. Got to love creative players...
Keeping track of light sources is a colossal pain in the butt anyway ... anything that makes it easier is a good thing in my book.
I've got a player whose character is human. When he goes into dark places, he takes his everburning torch and leaves it sticking out of his backpack. This gets him around not beling able to see/having to carry the torch.
My brain wants to scream "Cheese!" but I can't really see why someone couldn't do this. Even if I say "It won't stay in" or something, I'm sure he'd just use rope to tie the torch to the strap.
On the one hand, it seems like a smart simple solution to a problem. On the other hand, why even have vision rules if they're this simple to solve?
Tell your player about shield sconces. Or have him go for a swim and chuckle as the tide carries the torch away.
The fact that this thread exists saddens me. Every time I hear a GM talking about how baffled he is that his players are second-guessing or correcting him, weaponizing the rules, or otherwise showing that they don't trust him to provide a fun experience; I think of things like this, where a GM "wants to scream 'Cheese!'" over a friggin' light source.
Good things may come from sadness.
This thread brought me a lot of funny stories
My players used to cast continual light[flame] on copper coins...on LOTS of copper coins.
This was done by their mages/clerics in their down time...picture 3 heroes each tossing a fistfull of those coins down a shaft, or every which way in a dark cavern...
I just palmsmacked and let it go...it WAS a clever idea and it wasn't worth the bother to keep track of all those light coins...
I did have goblins start to steal them when they could though!
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Don't a certain amount of magic weapons (30%?) glow with light according to RAW?
My vote as the single most often totally ignored rule in the Pathfinder rule book.
I've got a player whose character is human. When he goes into dark places, he takes his everburning torch and leaves it sticking out of his backpack. This gets him around not beling able to see/having to carry the torch.
My brain wants to scream "Cheese!" but I can't really see why someone couldn't do this. Even if I say "It won't stay in" or something, I'm sure he'd just use rope to tie the torch to the strap.
On the one hand, it seems like a smart simple solution to a problem. On the other hand, why even have vision rules if they're this simple to solve?
Your player found a creative solution to a minor inconvenience. If I were you, I'd congratulate them and move forward with the game.
Your player found a creative solution to a minor inconvenience. If I were you, I'd congratulate them and move forward with the game.
Some GMs see themselves as having a duty (hopefully most) or a right to be enforcing inconveniences. Couple that with a more digital 'two hand slots' training from videogames, and you can get to where you think the torch-stuffer is cheating. And he _would_ be cheating, at the two-hand-slots video game. But he's playing an RPG, pen-and-paper style. Infinite palette, bring your own brushes.
To the OP: Just think of him as having got the 'Would work in real life' patch as a DLC. :)
It is a small thing to let him have the hands free light source, and it certainly has drawbacks to the tactic.
If facing clever, nimble foes (say kobolds), they may snatch it from his pack. If he needs to extinguish the light quickly, it might take a couple actions to grab it and stuff it back in the pack. If he wants to throw it to illuminate a distant area, it is an extra action to retrieve it. Small situational inconveniences for a small advantage.
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There are many more abusable ways to get easy light. My favorite:
Step 1: cast continual flame on a small stone or coin
Step 2: stitch the object into the inside of a belt pouch
Step 3: when you want light, invert your belt pouch. When you want dark, revert it.
Bonus round: use Heighten Spell to about 4th level so your light pouch trumps deeper darkness.
Hands-free, and only as stealable as any belt pouch type item. Most GMs I've played with rule inverting/reverting your belt pouch is a move action.
Really the true advantage of an everburning torch is the fact that you have light at the end of a longish stick - you can stick it into hole, throw it, or otherwise subject the stick to situations you may not want to risk your arm in.
To be honest, with every race having low-light vision or darkvision except humans, halflings, lizard men and mongrelmen, it is pretty obvious that light and vision was never really intended to be a thing in most situations. Sure, you could probably make a dark/shadow-themed campaign that makes light an issue, but normally, it's just not worth it.
There are many more abusable ways to get easy light. My favorite:
Step 1: cast continual flame on a small stone or coin
Step 2: stitch the object into the inside of a belt pouch
Step 3: when you want light, invert your belt pouch. When you want dark, revert it.
Bonus round: use Heighten Spell to about 4th level so your light pouch trumps deeper darkness.
And my favorite is to cast it on a small pearl, then set the pearl inside the hidden compartment of a signet ring. Open the compartment for light, close for discretion.
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My continual-flame-item of choice is a locket on a chain around my neck.
Cast the spell on the cameo on the inside, and close it when you don't want light. Hands free light source, on and off as desired, and your face is perpetually underlit by a creepy glow, making you look like the lead singer of Type O Negative.
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My favorite is to just light every monster on fire. Dead, alive...it makes no difference. It provides, light, heat, protection and dinner.
...
Did I mention I'm also Chaotic Evil?
light is a cantrip/orison. Continual flame is a level 1 spell. Just sayin'.
And all the ideas for improvised light sources are awesome in this thread. It is an overlooked mechanic that is important, especially for those who can't see the derro over yon sprinting past the crumbled wall, because it's dark.
One thing that seems to surprise some of the people I've played with is learning that light can only create one light at a time. So if you cast it on a pebble, and toss the pebble into a pit, when you cast light on another pebble, the first pebble goes out. I've considered houseruling light so that a spellcaster can have one light spell active per caster level.
An Ioun Torch works, too.
Fiiine. I suppose it's not that bad. Something about it irks me, but you're all right, it should be fine.
What if he had a Dwarven tunnel dog, with a leather harness on it and four everburning torches attached?
You could also throw it down a hole to check for traps, and the torches would likely break free when they hit the bottom, illuminating the base further.
I wonder if this GM bans races with darkvision and houserules light to be a 1st-level spell.
Ha ha, I like that increase to the difficulty curve.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the OP's question; something didn't feel right, so he decided to bounce it off his/her peer group here on the Paizo site. It looks like the consensus is with a little ingenuity, the light source shouldn't be a problem. And some game groups just handwave it, just like encumberance is often neglected. To each their own.
And with some of the rules about handedness and hands being available, and some of the extensive conversations about economy of actions and such, I can see why it may not feel right.
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See I find it more hillarious because one of my groups consists of a tiefling, ifrit, aasimar and dhampir (all with darkvision) and they keep finding items that provide light that they don't want since they see no drawback to fighting in total blackness (they even go around dousing torches).
First treasure hoard had an ioun torch in it, they immediately shoved it in a pocket.