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Joseph, as someone mentioned earlier, it's not about stopping cheaters.
The reason I require the ability to "mark off" a boon once it is used is because it is all too easy to use the boon, not mark it off/intend to mark it off later and then forget. With enough time, the player could then forget they ever used the boon and use it again later by mistake.
I would welcome an official solution to this issue for digital Chronicle sheets.
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Honestly I think it's harder to remember that you have the boon in the first place, if someone remembered a random 1 use boon twice, i'd be impressed :-p
Seriously though, most of those single use boons are so specific, that they are hard to remember to use once, much less twice.
I'm pretty firmly of the belief that some people will cheat, some people will choose not to cheat, some people will accidentally cheat (sometimes without knowing it was cheating).
I write my boons down in the personal section on my Herolab sheet, i reference that, instead of digging through all my chronicles. I know many other people who do similar (herolab or not, just use a sheet to track them all)
I will admit, I have been tempted to scan my chronicles to PDF and save them to my tablet, but I haven't yet done it because it's a lot of work, and I'm not sure i'll be able to use them.
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So how would you deal with GM initials on Boons after their use?
I would use the annotate tool in my PDF reader. I can type a note onto the sheet, or I can draw one on with giant red "ink" via the freehand notation tool. I can also let the GM do that. I am not aware of a PDF reader that doesn't have some kind of annotation tool, except perhaps the very raw one like Dropbox itself, or the in-browser displays you occasionally see. But a dedicated PDF reader without that basic function would seem very odd to me.
Also, I've never had a GM initial--or want to initial--a boon once it was used. None of the boons I've seen say "have your GM initial this when you use it," they say "cross this boon off once used." If the GM wants to cross off the boon himself, he is welcome to do so. But there's no need to have him initial it. Nor is there a reason that I can think of that one would want that to be the policy. What purpose would that serve? So I have proof, later, that I've already used that boon, and am therefore unable to use it again? If me saying that isn't proof enough, some random dude's initials aren't exactly going to be compelling evidence, and none of that is relevant, because even if the GM absolutely didn't believe me that the boon should be crossed off--and we're getting into the realm of absurdity here--I still couldn't be compelled to use it.
Initials for getting a "negative" boon crossed off, perhaps. But I can only think of one of those that is temporary.
As a show of solidarity to my Online Community, I will be bringing only digital copies of my character sheets, chronicle sheets, and dice rollers. The only non-digital asset I will have is my figurine.
Right on! I'm glad I'm not the only person who feels this way.
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How do you deal with GM initials on Boons after their use on regular paper? A person with a high quality scanner / printer can make replicas of their Chronicles prior to using a boon and replace it every time they play a new game.
That works great online where you have those at hand, but how does that work at game stores or conventions? You don't always know when you are going to use a boon prior to its use.
For what the OP is looking for I have no issue with chronicle sheets that would not require any editing later on but those that do (one use boons, items with limited buys) won't work that way since you can't edit them and get GM signatures at the table.
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None of the boons I've seen say "have your GM initial this when you use it," they say "cross this boon off once used."
I have seen a ton of boon that require GM initals, some require many GM intials over many games.
I will have to look into it but I am unsure if all PDF readers over all Hardware have the ability to annotate.
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I personally have no problem accepting digital chronicle sheets. When GMing, I'm just trying to make sure everyone has a good time. If a player uses expendable boons, we'll just mark it on their new CS for the session they played.
If a player is bound and determined to cheat, they will cheat. I consider my duties when running to see that my table is friendly, easy to be part of, follows the rules fairly, and leads to everyone having an even and fun experience. It's not my job or within my legal ability to set up bank vault like security to make sure you don't use that boon twice. Reasonable precaution, such as marking the new CS, will do just fine for me.
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The only time i have done an inventory of all of one of my characters boons, was when i was going to play through Eyes of the Ten. I thought I was going to need all the help i was going to get.
Other then that I largely forget about them.
So I'm going to echo what Don says....as a GM I would like to either be able to myself, or make sure my player marks off a boon on his chronicle sheet when he uses one.
And as a player.....at an in person table top game....I do not want an electronic chronicle sheet.
I would prefer to get a paper chronicle that I can put in my note book right away.
If a player sits down at a table I am GMing with only electronic chronicle sheets, while I wouldn't be be thrilled about this, I doubt i would refuse the player a spot at my table. I would prefer to be able to use my own discretion concerning electronic character sheets.
Joseph, while I hope our paths do some day cross, i have plenty of questions about online play. If you showed up at my table with only a figurine, and were using an electronic dice roller, I would politely ask you to use some dice. If you didn't have any I would be happy to lend you a tube of my dice to use while at my game. When you roll your dice in the middle of the table everyone gets to share the excitement of your 20s, and the pain of your 1s. The dice serve to draw people into an in person game. in my experience e-dice rollers don't have the same pull.
Myles Crocker
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The only Boon I can think of off the top of my head that required a GM signature was the one from Rivalry's End for the free immediate Faction Change and Ability boost, which also was required as soon as the player received it, (and so should have been added and signed for already).
Every other Boon I can think of either is attributed to a specific character or is something that the player, not the GM, the player needs to mark through when used. In this case, it's basically no different from a paper copy. A player can pretend to mark through it on paper, or have a backup copy ready to replace the one they just marked through just as a digital copy can be "not lined through" or "not signed off". Cheaters are going to cheat, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. :)
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The rule of thumb to solve this has to be as simple as this:
If it's not something practical you can do online, it shouldn't be something that's heavily enforced at an table in-person.
If that's the guideline by which the rules are made, I'm placing my bets that pretty much nobody will have a problem in following it and nobody will be skirting rules.
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How do you deal with GM initials on Boons after their use on regular paper? A person with a high quality scanner / printer can make replicas of their Chronicles prior to using a boon and replace it every time they play a new game.That works great online where you have those at hand, but how does that work at game stores or conventions? You don't always know when you are going to use a boon prior to its use.
For what the OP is looking for I have no issue with chronicle sheets that would not require any editing later on but those that do (one use boons, items with limited buys) won't work that way since you can't edit them and get GM signatures at the table.
With the increased area for notes on season 5 scenario chronicles, if a GM wanted to go the extra step to annotate that a boon was used (since is is not actually required now... I went through the 46 chronicle sheets that I have, they all simply say cross it off) they could simply write in that the boon from chronicle #XX was used and initial that.
It seems GM's here are assuming their players all cheat, not even the coordinators are that paranoid.
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Adam's suggestion isn't quite that silly - some people out there might be more possessive of their tablets/phones/laptops than they are of their paper sheet.
That being the case, I'm sure a GM could reassure the player that they could watch and promise not to break it or anything, or ask the player to show him if they're that sensitive. Dealing with that kind of awkwardness by that point is just a social thing that comes with it.
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I have been denied playtime at a table because all the Chronicle sheets for my character were GM credit, and it was assumed that it wasn't legit. However, the rules do not state that this is legal, and rather than argue the semantics involved, I decided to bow out.
As far as I'm concerned, online Chronicle sheets are as legitimate as a character with only GM chronicles applied. I'll tell you that I have opted to begin transferring all my chronicle sheets to an online format, storing them on both my laptop and my Google Docs account for ease of use. People have pointed out that they carry quite a bit, and I have six books I carry with me, plus my Magic: the Gathering cards (hey, it's a hobby!). My character sheets are on Excel spreadsheets on my tablet, which I carry with me. In essence, if the GM wants to see something, I can have it in ten seconds or less because I know where it is.
Simply put, ease of use. I won't allow dice-rolling programs or HeroLabs sheets (as I said before), but almost anything else is acceptable to me. I think that should be fine either way.
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This is an interesting suggestion. I would personally be fine if someone had all of their digital chronicles; however, I'm usually quite wary of handling someone else's expensive electronic equipment.
Is there a way in which this could work without a very awkward period of having each player hold their tablet in front of me while I read each chronicle?
This is possibly the most rediculus objection ever. Lets turn it on its head to see why.
I'm Madm Idoroygom, I'm quite weary of handling someone else's paper character sheet and chronicles. (Do you know how long germs survive on paper?!) I wish there was some way to GM without the awkward period of each player holding their folder of character information in front of me as I read each page.
Well I'm certainly not worried about catching a cold from someone's tablet. I'm worried about dropping it, or having it malfunction in my hands. As it currently stands, when someone shows me something on their tablet, I usually request that they hold it for me while I read, because I do not want to risk being responsible for something so expensive.
Until someone is a close friend of mine, I don't feel comfortable holding their computer. I don't really find that ridiculous, and I'll thank you to be a little less rude when you next 'turn something on its head'.
Well I'm certainly not worried about catching a cold from someone's tablet. I'm worried about dropping it, or having it malfunction in my hands. As it currently stands, when someone shows me something on their tablet, I usually request that they hold it for me while I read, because I do not want to risk being responsible for something so expensive.
Agreed totally. No way I'd use a random person's expensive tablet without them signing a waiver first to release me from any accidental damage liability - and yeah, I'm 100% serious about that as I'm quite accident-prone.
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Well I'm certainly not worried about catching a cold from someone's tablet. I'm worried about dropping it, or having it malfunction in my hands. As it currently stands, when someone shows me something on their tablet, I usually request that they hold it for me while I read, because I do not want to risk being responsible for something so expensive.
The point was (since you missed it) that your concern is an irrational one.
Tablets do not have a habit of simply breaking in half. We wouldn't use them if they did. Simply set them on the table (like you would if it was a folder) and you will have to work very hard to break it. Most can even take having a coffee spilled on them if its wiped off promptly.
Mine is a hair prone to crashing random programs since it is old and no longer eligible for software updates. But if you simply say that its crashed I'll be happy to open the program up for you again.
I'll thank you to not take everything so personally. Its really not all about you.
I don't see any big reason not to allow it. We're already allowed to use PDFs as additional resources, so just use whatever procedure you're comfortable with with someone else's technology that you're already using for book PDFs, along with a caveat that you have to be able to cross off a boon at the table if you want to use it.
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I have seen a ton of boon that require GM initals, some require many GM intials over many games.
Examples?
The point was (since you missed it) that your concern is an irrational one.
Except it's not. If you hand me your tablet and I drop it, it could shatter the screen. Then I've broken your tablet. I'm not interested in listening to you whine about it.
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I have seen a ton of boon that require GM initals, some require many GM intials over many games.Examples?
The point was (since you missed it) that your concern is an irrational one.Except it's not. If you hand me your tablet and I drop it, it could shatter the screen. Then I've broken your tablet. I'm not interested in listening to you whine about it.
Heh. The only time a GM has broken one of my electronic devices was when he pulled out the SD chip, put some data on it from his laptop, then force inserted the chip both upside down and backwards. Takes real genius to do that, too.
For the most part, I would have no problem turning my tablet towards the GM, and letting him look at it.
And, for a counterpoint to Sior, who, apparently, has no transportation issues, I would love to be able to digitize all my chronicle sheets and not have to carry all of them if I have to bring all my PCs to a game to be able to pull out the most appropriate PC for the table.
I usually take the bus to go to either the game store I run/play at, or the location where the local Game Day is held. Note that, in general, for both sites, "the bus" translates into at least two buses and a transfer on the way there, and the same (with late night fewer buses) on the way home.
If I am both GMing and playing, especially if I am not sure from the sign-ups if I have a legal table for either or both, I have all my GM stuff with (CRB, Bestiary, blank flip-mat, intiative tracker, dice box, markers, scenario(s), PFS documents, minis/pawns) and multiple PCs for usinag at the game (more PCs if the game I am scheduled to play is higher tier, as I bring a set of PCs for the lower tier game if I wind up playing there due to the higher tier table not making) My PCs are each in an individual folder or binder, two-pocket folder through 3rd level, small binder at 4th level, getting larger as they level up to fit.
Along with the multi-page printout of my PC from HeroLabs, including PC, gear, spellbook ooverview, etc., I am also trying to include the appropriate rules printouts from my PDFs for the character's non-Core options. This is worse for some PCs than others, my second level Wizard, including a copy of the higher level PC's chronicle which allows him to be a Thassilonian Specialist Wizard, also includes all the non-core spells he has in his spellbook, and that makes his folder bigger than the folder for my 3rd level Sorcerer, as an example.
It adds up, and I am old, out of shape, and diabetic, so packing all this junk around starts to get wearing on me.
Going to a convention? Help! I only managed this last PaizoCon because I only had plans to play one specific PC, and only brought a couple of backups along, and no GM stuff.
Note: With Hero Lab Viewer for my iPad, my por files on my Google shared drive, and my PDF files for the books there, I can play on the spur of the moment, or pull out a more appropriate PC for the party make-up, if needed.
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I have seen a ton of boon that require GM initals, some require many GM intials over many games.Examples?
Sure
Taint of the World wound - Convention Boon can require up to 9 GM Intials
Debt to Society - Convention Boon, space for 12 GM intials but coule require more or less.
Missing Mentor - Convention Boon require 5 GM inputs
And that is just the few I have on hand, I have seen others.
And of course that list does not account for the many Scenario Boons that require you to cross them out during the game once you use them.
Like I said, I have no problem with the idea of going digital on the Chronicle sheets, I just think those that need to be edited in some way later on should be require to stay in hard copy, which should only be a few of the many chronicle sheets you character has.
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And, for a counterpoint to Sior, who, apparently, has no transportation issues, I would love to be able to digitize all my chronicle sheets and not have to carry all of them if I have to bring all my PCs to a game to be able to pull out the most appropriate PC for the table.
Haha, you didn't see me at Gen Con. I played or ran all day Thursday and didn't know which characters I'd be playing, so I shlepped the whole kit and kaboodle of character binder (character sheets, two folios, chronicles and boons for 7 characters ranging lvl 2 to 10, nowhere near as impressive as your spread, but you get the idea) plus miniatures and all the smeg needed to run the last game session from my car to the con which, thankfully, was only a little under a mile, but still had to carry it around all day. Yes, I'd wished I had a lighter load. But then, I also liked being able to take my chronicles and slide them right into place so I wouldn't have to remember to do it later. Or be able to flip through everything or lay it out if necessary. It actually saved my ass when I realized I was about to play a scenario with a character I'd already applied GM credit to.
Personally, I'll split my character binder into two or three before I convert everything to PDF for face-to-face play. But that's me. And that's why I don't see it as a necessity, taking it back to my original point. Digital chronicles are a necessary evil to allow online play to happen. For face-to-face it's mere convenience with its own drawbacks (such as battery life or handling someone else's tech, which can make the player, gm, both, or neither uncomfortable).
Apologies, I'm tired. I really need to stop posting right before bedtime!
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Taint of the World wound - Convention Boon can require up to 9 GM Intials
Debt to Society - Convention Boon, space for 12 GM intials but coule require more or less.
Missing Mentor - Convention Boon require 5 GM inputs...
Like I said, I have no problem with the idea of going digital on the Chronicle sheets, I just think those that need to be edited in some way later on should be require to stay in hard copy, which should only be a few of the many chronicle sheets you character has.
Okay, fair enough. I forgot about con boons. So we make an exception that reads something like ...
"Players are welcome to digitize their Chronicles as long as they present them using software that can be annotated or otherwise edited. Those unable to do so must have hardcopies of Chronicles that will require notation before/during/after use."
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Both Adobe and EZ PDF allow annotations.
However, it is also easy to simply remove an annotation afterwards if the DM does not know the product, and if play has a back up, there alwaya ways to cheat.
I do not see any need for rules on this that go beyond the "dont cheat, dont be a jerk", except that it should be clear that it is legal and table variatiom on this is not acceptable.
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If I have a player at my table with digital chronicles that wants to use a limited use boon off a previous chronicle, I'll ask him to annotate that chronicle. I will also make a note on the chronicle I hand out at the end of the session, e.g. 'Used Apple & Blackberry boon from #3–14159: Death by Pie (chronicle 9); 2 of 3 uses remaining'.
Personally I'd prefer players to have paper records, simply because they're less hassle for the GM, e.g. when looking for equipment, or checking if a PC has done a particular scenario in the past. It's a case of quickly riffling through a few sheets, rather than asking a player how to find information on his PC app, and then asking him to navigate to the folder where his chronicle sheets are (all as individual PDFs), etc. All the while, he can't do anything else, as everything for his PC is only accessible through the one screen...
I would never kick a player for not having paper records, but he should be aware of the impact he could have on the table (and his fellow players) if choosing this route.
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The point was (since you missed it) that your concern is an irrational one.Except it's not. If you hand me your tablet and I drop it, it could shatter the screen. Then I've broken your tablet.
It really is. Do you have a habit of holding it chest high over concrete? I didn't think so. If I pass it across the table (as actually happens) and you set it down (as actually happens) then nothing will go wrong.
If you are holding my tablet over your head while standing on concrete, you'll get to listen to me do more than whine.
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The point was (since you missed it) that your concern is an irrational one.Except it's not. If you hand me your tablet and I drop it, it could shatter the screen. Then I've broken your tablet.It really is. Do you have a habit of holding it chest high over concrete? I didn't think so. If I pass it across the table (as actually happens) and you set it down (as actually happens) then nothing will go wrong.
If you are holding my tablet over your head while standing on concrete, you'll get to listen to me do more than whine.
To be fair though, there are a lot of other things that could happen, and saying because you are fine with it, everyone else should be too is a no go. Things can get spilled on it, (not even by you), or you could get bumped into by someone else and drop it on the floor. The Core book is notorious for both not being light and not being well constructed, and it's easy to accidentally stack it on top of other things. Granted, I'm all for digital stuff, even if I myself don't actually like them, but lets try not to pretend that other peoples concerns are not actual concerns.
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While its possible to break others stuff its not likely. Should I also worry about GMs dropping my chronicle sheets in a mud puddle or tearing them in half? I value my chronicle sheets much more than a single electronic device.
I suspect most objection in the vein comes from either Luddite or grognard attitudes. Neither of which is healthy for the campaign.
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While its possible to break others stuff its not likely. Should I also worry about GMs dropping my chronicle sheets in a mud puddle or tearing them in half? I value my chronicle sheets much more than a single electronic device.
I suspect most objection in the vein comes from either Luddite or grognard attitudes. Neither of which is healthy for the campaign.
If your chronicle sheet is damaged I can fix that. I have a printer and we can work out a solution. If your tablet breaks or malfunctions in my hand, I can't afford to pay for it.
To defend myself against unreasonable people, I don't touch another person's expensive electronics.
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I digitized all my Chronicles the other day. (Thank God for multi-document scanners; that could have taken ages.) They're now sorted, in my Dropbox, available for perusal. I think I'm just going to go for it--I have a stylus to go with my iPad, so if someone wants to initial something on one of my Chronicles, I can just hand the stylus to them and turn on annotations. We'll see how many tables actually give me grief over it.
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My preferred approach:
- Electronic copies of chronicle sheets enabling online play, storage/recovery/archiving, and (potentially) play when travelling are a good thing;
- *At DM's discretion*, electronic presentation of chronicle sheets (on a laptop/tablet/phone) seems okay by me. If the DM is comfortable with the chronicle sheets being presented / reviewed / marked up in that form, then more power to the DM. I think PFS should enable DMs to accept electronic sheets, provided the DM issues a physical sheet if it's a f2f game and provided the DM is comfortable in his/her ability to properly certify purchases on the inventory tracking sheets, etc.
- Players who only bring electronic chronicles to a face-to-face game should, however, be prepared to play a pre-gen if the DM wants physical chronicle sheets. Chances are, it shouldn't come to that: there's usually a less-drastic solution available. Just like showing up to a table without supporting books for a character with non-Core features, however, players should be prepared for the possibility of playing a pre-gen. I don't think players should be (or feel) entitled to assume that 'electronic only' will always be accepted by every GM they play with, wherever they happen to play.
My rationale:
I see both sides of the coin here.
On the one hand, I scanned my chronicle sheets so that I could have a printed back-up in case of accident, loss, drink-spillage, or random PFS game if I was travelling and didn't bring my sheets with me. I think that facilitating online play by enabling virtual chronicle portfolios for those situations is a good thing.
On the other hand, if replacements had been required I would have printed out the sheets to bring with me or played a pre-gen.
Further, as an occasional DM, I do not want to be responsible for manipulating potentially-expensive technological gear. It's great that Mr. Trent would readily forgive (and not expect compensation for) a potential 'butterfingers' moment by moi were I to accidentally damage a piece of his electronic gear. Sadly, not everyone in this world is so accommodating. I'd rather deal with a player who is sniffy about 'only' being able to play a pre-generated character in an adventure because he/she forgot his/her sheets or chose not to bring hard copies than a player reacting to the fact that a several hundred dollar piece of electronic equipment ceased to function whilst in my care.
(Also, I find reviewing documents at less than 8.5 x 11 size inconvenient and annoying. Either the document is zoomed out, making it harder for me to read, or I can't see the whole sheet at one time. That's a personal peeve, though.)
From a practical perspective, physical chronicle sheets only 'matter' when a player is otherwise unable to properly record something permanent on a non-physical sheet, or if a DM wants to audits a character. Unfortunately, it's in those two scenarios that I (as a DM) would really rather not deal with electronic character sheets.
I'm not going to say that I would refuse to let a character play at my table with electronic-only chronicle sheets (particularly if it is that player's first time playing at my table). But the odds of me auditing that character's chronicle sheets are low indeed. If something fishy comes up during play, I'll make a note on the (phyisical) chronicle sheet that I hand to the player, and I'll tell the character to bring physical chronicle sheets the next time he or she plays at a table I run.
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I've been reflecting on this, and I'm prepared to make the argument that nowhere in the Guide does it say that physical copies are required.
The passage that comes closest is labeled "Do Not Cheat," under pages 19-20.
Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules. GMs rely on accurately kept Chronicle sheets to keep the campaign honest, fair, and fun for everyone. So keep your records safe, keep them accurate, and keep them with you when attending Pathfinder Society Organized Play events. (We suggest a binder that can be completely sealed between scenarios.)
Let me start by saying that this obviously implies a preference towards print. But PFS is about RAW, implication and preference are not explicit rules, and this passage does not say that you have to bring physical copies. If it did, it would have to have an exception for online play, which it clearly does not. Unless there's another section in the book that I'm missing (or a clarification somewhere), I just don't see a requirement for the physical documents.
