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I would say the class that most benefits from this qould be the Iquisitor because they already get a large boost from Wisdom. Its still not as good as Dex based builds at replacing Str, because unless you ignor carrying capacity, movement reduction, and dont use Combat Manuvers, Str is just too needed beyond damage. Dex based characters enerally ignor this by being light weight anyway.
Monks generally dont use weapons if they can help it outside the Brass Knuckles, and could probably use the boost anyway. Clerics are extremely MAD, and do not have the feats to go into a High Dex build. That doesnt mean they cant be high dex, but then this item wouldnt help anyway. Druids probably get a little more of a boost than Clerics, but that is probably only going to be noticable at all at lower levels until they get their better spells and shapshifting abilities up there. I would say from 5th to 7thish, its really going to loose its punch.
Now, I do sort of like the requirement of it being a Dety's favored weapon. For everyone. I think that just makes for some cool holy style flavor. But thats me.
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I am interested, is there such a ruling/FAQ?Also, somewhere around here there was a FAQ that stated when something changes out Str, you do likewise use Dex and a half for wielding two handed, or whatever the case may be. Dervish Dance requires you to wield one handed, but it ahould apply to Agile and Guided (or Guided hand).
<posting from phone so cant do research or linking easily.>
Im posting from my phone so I cant do much research. If you want, search for FAQs on Agile property and Dervish Dance feat and Ill see what I can find when I get home. I think off hand its the APG and Inner Sea world guide FAQs.
The only real issue with this is that the template in PF (non-3.5 version) is splitting the damage and attack bonuses, one thru a feat and one thru the agile weapon property. Just like the combat cleric who gave up both domains for full bab got tossed out as unbalanced from the earlier version, this probably is not the new model, else it would have been ported over).
A full BAB, full casting class unbalanced? Gosh.
Thing is you can get Wis-to-hit through a feat, but it's a two-feat sequence and you need to be able to channel energy, so clerics can get it...druids cannot, but they do not need it, monks cannot and they DO.
To my thinking, monks, inquisitors, and druids are helped the most. Monks I would be okay allowing this to act like it does in 3.5 because quite frankly the class could use a little help overall. Inquisitors and especially druids do not need the assist. It is not so much that they should not have this ability as it is that they should probably follow the two part model established for dex based characters with agile.
Problem with it is, you have to wait until you can afford it to get it, and up until then you are stuck with sucking. Also, it doesn't help with maneuvers.
With agile working the way it does dex based melee characters are still mostly subpar. Can you name a popular dex build that makes use of agile? Most good dex builds are dervish dancing or are primarily ranged. At best you will find a dex monk with an amulet running around sucking only slightly less than a typical monk.
Actually it's about the most viable monk build, which is saying something about most monk builds. You aren't quite as good as the strength-focussed monk, but you have way better AC. That said, you still get to suck for 5-6 levels.
The agile weapon property is a magic item tax that most players would rather avoid entirely for a mulititude of reasons and would prefer either a feat gimmick or a class that gives the ability.
They would, but actually I can understand why Paizo didn't do it that way. I'd be happy with guided being a weapon property for damage only, with a (single, unrestricted) feat for hitting.
Guided isn't unbalanced nor is is especially good. The classes that would use it are hardly going to break the game by being slightly better at dealing damage. In fact the magic item tax is going to be too much for most players to build their character around it. Sucking worse than an NPC class for 5 levels before you can get guided will ensure that, and if you start out at higher levels then there is so much more you can do build and gear wise than waste your resources on a guided weapon build.
You know why druids aren't running around with guided weapons? Because their combat form is about the wildshape ability. Last I checked wildshape doesn't increase wisdom, so guided won't stack or improve combat ability. Oh sure, druids can try to fight in their normal form, but then they are a 3/4 BAB character with weapon and armor restrictions, less spells per day than a cleric, and less buff oriented combat spells that other 3/4 bab characters have, and leave one of their best class powers under utilized.
What he said. Plus, it's overpowered for a +1 bonus, I'd say. If it had the caveat "when weilded by a character with a ki-pool..." I'd be OK with it.
You know why druids aren't running around with guided weapons?
Because they are a 3.x item and not Pathfinder legal.
Because their combat form is about the wildshape ability. Last I checked wildshape doesn't increase wisdom, so guided won't stack or improve combat ability.
I think redcelt32 answered this one. The 3.5 druid had a problem: you dumped your physical stats, wild-shaped, and ignored them. Paizo fixed the druid by fixing wild-shape so your physical stats DID matter. Now with a guided AoMF you can ignore them again.
Oh sure, druids can try to fight in their normal form, but then they are a 3/4 BAB character with weapon and armor restrictions, less spells per day than a cleric, and less buff oriented combat spells that other 3/4 bab characters have, and leave one of their best class powers under utilized.
You just described the monk there, except those ARE his best class features.
That +4 to strength from wildshape (assuming large animal, which is usually the best combat form) is probably not going to put a wildshape druid's strength much higher than he could have gotten his wis if he didn't need any strength.
8 strength +4 = 12
18 wisdom + 0 = 18Nope, that doesn't add up.
Just up the cost to +2 and Guided Weapon would be just fine.
I agree this would be appropriate for what the property does, but the effect is very great on classes that are already more than strong enough, and places the property effectively out of reach from the one class that actually needs it.
As mention by others above, if you want, you can spilt it into 2 different weapon properties. a +1 for Att via Wis and another +1 for an upgrade to damage as well.
Or a feat for the attack, property for damage, as with finesse/agile?
@ikarinokami: The CMD of most clerics isn't great, normally most monsters don't even have problems overcoming a fighter's CMD.
There is no difference if the monster overcomes your CMD by 5 or by 20.
Besides, a cleric can cast freedom of movement and blessing of fervour (to become more or less immune to tripping and grappling).
I play Pathfinder once a week for about four years now, and really can not follow your arguments.
Count me in the OP department on the guided property. If it were a +2 enchantment, it would probably be ok, but still very strong, esp. if you play a lot in higher levels (15+), where the price of such a weapon enhancement becomes negligible.
Not sure how many people play the higher levels, but the melee combat cleric becomes more or less obsolete by around level 14 unless you really take great effort to keep him viable and thereby sacrificing his increasingly important casting ability.
With the guided property you suddenly become both: the best possible caster cleric AND a good melee combatant with the relevant buffs (divine power, frightful aspect or the like).
With a high point-buy (20 or 25) at character creation it is still easy to get 13 strength for Power Attack.
As a +1 ability it is significantly more powerful than Agile, which is one of the best +1 abilities - as written it is overpowered.
I've seen three different fixes:
1. Up it to (at least) a +2 enhancement.
2. Make it similar to Agile and only grant Wisdom modifier to damage. You should strongly consider adding a feat that uses Wisdom to hit (Weapon Insight?) similar to weapon finesse - maybe only useable with monk weapons instead of light weapons?
3. As has been mentioned, have it require a Ki pool point to function.
Personally I use the first option in my latest game, though in hindsight I wish I would have gone with the second one. WBL changes dramatically as you scale (eventually making the cost negligible), while a feat slot is always valuable.
Finally, whatever you do, do not allow this enhancement to work on ranged weapons. Both Guided and Agile are meant to be used on melee weapons.
@ikarinokami: The CMD of most clerics isn't great, normally most monsters don't even have problems overcoming a fighter's CMD.
There is no difference if the moster overcomes your CMD by 5 or by 20.
Besides, a cleric can cast freedom of movement and blessing of fervour (to become more or less immune to tripping and grappling).I play Pathfinder once a week for about four years now, and really can not follow your arguments.
Count me in the OP department on the guided property. If it were a +2 enchantment, it would probably be ok, but still very strong, esp. if you play a lot in higher levels (15+), where the price of such a weapon enhancement becomes negligible.
Actually the CMD being beaten by a lot actually does matter. Never heard of bull rush? There are a few other CMs that care about margin of victory too.
As for caster characters suddenly being awesome melee combatants with guided out of nowhere... You know becoming awesome at combat doesn't come from taking a +3-4 from your weapon right? Its about feats and abilities. A casting focused character needs to have more than 1d8+6 to be good at combat. Heck at 2nd level 1d8+6 is pretty bad if you are expected to be a primary or even secondary combatant. Am I expected to believe that suddenly at the levels you can expect guided clerics running around that they are going to be powerhouses especially since they can barely heft their weapons or wear their armor? Sure, the casty cleric can just use spells to boost, but they are still lacking the combat oriented feats, aren't doing anything that the combat cleric didn't do since day one, and still are far behind in melee ability. Also those combat boosting spells take away from their original build purpose (meaning you have less boosting than the combat cleric, and less caster spells than the cleric who didn't try to pick up guided).
Paying 8000 gold to play catchup is a waste of opportunity for a caster cleric. They should be spending that on their core competency rather than chasing something they gave up on at level 1.
At a +1 enchancement cost it might be worth it to some people to take guided. At +2 I don't see anybody considering it until way late in their career. Waiting 9 levels before you can become merely decent in combat (I contest you still suck since the build is unlikely to support being actually good) seems like a huge waste.
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Nothing that has been said changes the fact that you are still ending up with the equivalent of a max str and max wis caster vs one or the other.
No one is saying taking this guided weapon property suddenly makes you a front line fighter. What this item does is make it possible to do both with careful feat choices, which before would be extremely difficult. It does make you much more powerful than a +1, and probably more than a +2.
Honestly if it were monk only, this wouldn't be bad as is. However that is more of a side tangent to this conversation.
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In addition, it's not just a +4 or more to Hit and damage. Since it allows stat consolidation it's potentially a +5 or more, combined with increased skills, Will defense, and additional spell slots, and spell slots are essentially pools of potential that could translate into more to-hit and damage, more AC, more healing, etc. For the monk it's additional AC and additional ki points, which once more can translate into a variety of additional effects, including accuracy, additional attacks, even more AC, etc.
And the hit to STR doesn't hurt the two classes who will benefit most, the druid and monk, since they're either gear-light or capable of self-buffing (especially with those bonus spell slots!) to accommodate any carrying needs or anything else they might need STR for.