Mythic Adventure Paths [Spoilers]

[captain yesterday]

Tangent101 wrote:

Personally, I think the Mantle of Baba Yaga in Reign of Winter sounds sufficiently like a Mythic Tier that I decided to use the Mythic Rules for it. I don't mind revamping encounters to to be tougher because I started with a group from a previous campaign (rerunning Night Below) so I was already altering things to make it challenging.

i totally agree there, you've also started with an existing campaign that helps as far as already needing to put the work in, so might as well make it mythic:)

the great thing with RoW is its sooo easy to jump from one campaign to that, just put the winter portal anywhere and go from there, i love RoW, my favorite AP so far (yes even better then Kingmaker)

[Tangent101]

Well, I'm not exactly going to bother with adventures after the end of RoW. I'll just have the group build new characters for Wrath of the Righteous. Be fun if I can integrate my two groups (the Skype and the Tabletop), seeing both of them currently share two players, and have them both in WotR.

The only real issue will be convincing players to use the build system (I figure I'll wean them into it with a 20-point build). I'm thinking that telling them "you can either go 4d6, drop the lowest 6, and no rerolls even if the stats suck, or use the point-build system" that most will go with point-builds.

(Especially as I allowed rerolled 1s because the dice hate my players. You don't want to know how many 1s I've seen rerolled in stat-building. Seriously, how does a person manage to roll 10 1s with 24 dice?)

[zimmerwald1915]

Tangent101 wrote:

Personally, I think the Mantle of Baba Yaga in Reign of Winter sounds sufficiently like a Mythic Tier that I decided to use the Mythic Rules for it.

This, for me, is the key point, and plays into magnuskn's point as well. One "signal", if you will, that an AP should be made Mythic is the amount of stuff the writers put in that isn't covered by the normal rules. Reign of Winter is chock full of moments that give the PCs various ad-hoc bonuses and benefits beyond those normally permitted by the rules.

Spoiler:

PCs don't normally get a +2 inherent bonus to a stat at level 3; they have to wait until level 17 for wish, or maybe their wealth will allow it slightly earlier. Nor do they normally get the ability to travel the universe and the planes at level 7; they normally have to wait until level 9 for the most rudimentary plane shifting options. Nor do they get to ride dragons at level 11; Leadership allows for this in principle, but dragon mounts tend to come online at level 16 or so. No other AP could ever send adventurers to Earth, at least before level 17 when, again, wish and interplanetary teleport come online (and both require knowledge of where you want to go). Thematic concerns aside, the only power in Golarion's solar system besides The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga that might allow interstellar travel is the door of mystery on Apostae, and that's inactive. And as you successfully argued against me in the "The Black Rider's Mantle and Mythic Levels" thread, The Witch Queen's Revenge is just begging to be treated as a series of four Mythic trials, what with all the ad-hoc stuff it dishes out that could so easily be replaced or augmented with Mythic tiers.

As for which APs to make Mythic, applying this standard gives some interesting answers:

Rise of the Runelords:

This is a tough one. On the one hand, as people have pointed out, the theme of the piece feels very Mythic, with old powers beyond modern ken rising to claim what they feel is rightfully theirs. On the other hand, there aren't many signal events that feel like they ought not to be treated as beyond the scope of the normal rules. Malfeshnekor is the earliest such thing, and the number of templates he's had applied to him indicates he's meant to be a paragon, or beyond, of his kind. Vorel's failed lichdom ritual could be counted as a signal because of how vague and personalized it is, but doing so would make all liches Mythic foes, and I'm wary of going there. The next signals that really jump out at me are Runeforge and the Leng Device, both of which come near the tail end of the campaign. Between Foxglove Manor and these signals, there's nothing really that jumps out at me as being Mythic

Verdict: If Mythic power is to make an appearance in this AP, it should be in the late game. The PCs should ascend to Mythic power upon obtaining Runeforged weapons. That's not a lot of time to play with that Mythic power, however, and opportunities to gain more than two tiers are going to be limited. My advice, if you choose to introduce Mythic power, is to plan for Mhar to be awakened, and for Karzoug to escape the PCs (this should be his moment of ascension).

Curse of the Crimson Throne:

A bit like Rise, in that most of the Mythic-like stuff comes at the late game. The plan Ileosa wants to use to ascend is cribbed from the definitely-Mythic Sorshen, and Mandravius, previous owner of Serithtial, seems like he'd have been a Mythic hero, as would his companions. The sword feels like it should grant some of that power. But it's muddied by the fact that Zellara's Harrow Deck feels like a Mythic item, and getting access to it feels like a good moment of ascension.

Verdict: To tie the PCs' moment of ascension to Zellara, have them ascend when they rescue her from Scarwall are reunite her with her Harrow Deck. The Sunken Queen feels like a Mythic trial as well. Again, however, GMs wanting to give their players a chance to play with their Mythic power should plan for the campaign to continue, possibly resurrecting Kazavon, Sorshen, or having the players track down the relics of Kazavon.

Second Darkness:

The first non-Runelord AP is still another tough call. On this one, however, I'm going to come down against Mythic. The Dark Fate is something that could happen to any elf who is evil enough, and whose actions are depraved enough; it has nothing to do with Mythic power. And the aboleth runes that call down the Second Darkness, while of unquestionable power, are never in the hands of the PCs. The Continuing the Campaign section, moreover, seems less Mythic than the AP had up until that point.

Verdict: No change.

I haven't read Legacy of Fire. Ironic, since that one seems to have a lot of people fired up on both sides of the debate (heh).

Council of Thieves:

This one's easy. As the first AP written with the PFRPG rules, there was very little testing done in this AP of the boundaries of those rules, the signal for Mythic power. The story feels small, even smaller than Curse, the AP up until now with the least geographical/metaphysical scope.

Verdict: No change

Kingmaker:

Another easy one to call, this AP is decidedly non-Mythic up until the final book. True, the founding of cities and kingdoms is the stuff of Myth, but the way the AP is structured keeps the PCs down to earth. Founding Shrikewall (or whatever the PCs name their first town) does not feel like Gilgamesh founding Ur; it feels like John Rolfe founding Jamestown. In part this is because the PCs rarely feel pushed to their limits. This is the fifteen-minute adventuring day AP, so Mythic power would quickly seem like overkill. The AP begins to push the envelope of the rules in the final book, with the introduction of Briar, the First World Blooms, and the trip to Thousandbreaths. Even then, however, I would avoid going Mythic here, because the Mythic Fey are the Eldest and the Tane, and Nyrissa is definitely not in their league.

Verdict: No change. If you want to introduce Mythic power, it should be to continue the campaign.

I haven't read Serpent's Skull, but thematically it seems worth a closer look. The resurrection of a dead god seems very close to the resurrection of an ancient wizard-king.

Carrion Crown:

The theme tells against this AP being make Mythic. Gearing up to fight Tar Baphton would be worthy of such, but that is not what this AP has the PCs do; they only ever fight his minions, who do not feel Mythic in and of themselves. This AP also doesn't push the envelope of the rules, preferring to "reintroduce" the Haunt mechanics from Runelords and the Harrow mechanics from Curse.

Verdict: No change.

Jade Regent:

Ah, here we are. Epic journey, otherworldly influence, communing with spirits, here are the Mythic themes to be found. As others have said, coming upon the Amatatsu Seal makes a nice moment of ascension, and opportunities for trials are spread throughout the AP, not just in the final book or two like with Rise and Curse.

Verdict: This is the first AP I've been able to comment on that can be truly made Mythic all the way through.

Skull and Shackles:

This comes up against two different thematic walls. Like Council of Thieves and Kingmaker, this is a fairly down-to-earth, political AP. Like Carrion Crown, its theme doesn't sing Mythic to me either, despite what Disney would like me to believe about pirates (you may own my soul, mouse, but my opinions are my own!). Again, while I have read this one, I haven't read it closely, so take this with a grain of salt, but nothing really stood out to me as pushing the envelope of the rules. Even braving the Eye of Abendego could be handled according to the normal weather and shiphandling rules (I think; correct me if I'm wrong).

Verdict: No change.

Shattered Star:

Here my Reign of Winter comments start to sound familiar. In what other AP do the PCs discover and get to use an artifact by the end of the first book? Thematically we're back to the legacy of Thassilon, which always makes me perk up to possible signals. Unfortunately, I haven't read the books before The Dead Heart of Xin at all closely. I get the sense, however, that Mythic power will get a lot of play in the megadungeons, and that these will also offer great opportunities for trials as well.

Verdict: Can probably be made Mythic all the way through. Take this with a grain of salt.

Overall I'd give serious consideration to making Legacy of Fire, Serpent's Skull, Jade Regent, Shattered Star and Reign of Winter Mythic APs. I've only looked at Reign of Winter closely in that respect, but I'm convinced that it offers the scope, as written, for either four or five Mythic tiers. The others stand as they are, though GMs planning to continue Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and possibly Kingmaker have the opportunity to introduce Mythic power fairly late in the APs as written.

[Tangent101]

To be honest, I'd say the perfect point for a Mythic Ascension in Runelords is actually quite early in the game: when the players fight a Quasit Oracle before an ancient font of magic. Further, this ancient font of magic is in fact a minor artifact... and destroying it is well beyond the abilities (or rather wealth) of the PCs (which is a good thing seeing that its re-awakening starts off the fifth book of the AP).

If the players have Ascension with the Runewell, then the first Trial ends up being Malfeshnekor. You yourself pointed out he's a paragon, and given the locale, the history of the locale and the goblins, and the potency that Mal has for 4th level characters (having caused more than his share of TPKs), he fulfills the criteria for a Trial.

Thus we have Mythic Tier 2.

There are two potential sources for the first trial for T3; you have the fight to overcome the Ogres with their Giant Overlord (who is in fact a Necromancer using Thassilonian knowledge in his magic), or the recovery of a body part for an Undead Fey to use to bring back her true love. I'm hesitant to state both together would be individual trials (though another GM could rule otherwise!) but taken together it would easily be a greater Trial.

The second Trial then is in fighting the Big M himself. He's the one behind K's awakening. He's a powerful menace who has killed plenty of parties. His locale is most definitely mythic. Combined with the Thassilonian Mummy who holds a minor artifact of power (which to some GMs may constitute a Trial in and of itself!) I'd say this works as the second Trial as a whole.

Thus we have Mythic Tier 3.

The next Trial could easily be the Scribbler. He exists in a hidden lair that emerges thanks to a surge of power re-activating the minor artifact that first empowered the PCs, he's a scion of his Goddess, and he holds the key to finding the Runeforge.

Naturally the Runeforge itself is one massive Trial. I could even see some GMs deciding the players gain a couple Mythic Tiers in there but I'm playing it conservative here. I'm planning on my players gaining a Tier here and only allowing them to empower one weapon (hopefully the Ranseur that they recovered from the dungeon where they had Ascension - I may try to talk the Player into having it be a Legendary item).

Thus we have Mythic Tier 4.

The final Tier is a little bit more difficult. You could rule that reaching Xin-Shalist and killing the Big K would work as three Trials. That does kind of lessen the fun of letting the players have a final Mythic Tier when fighting the Big K himself but thematically it makes sense.

That said, I'd say the three Trials for Xin-Shalast include the Haunted Hut (due to the horrific nature of what's going on there), closing down the Leng Device, and fighting the "lady" who protects the Portal leading to K's pocket dimension.

[eakratz]

Jeremy757 wrote:

What I am trying to decide is the best way for Xotani to rise again even though the players defeat Jahvul. What I want is to have a "book seven" where the players have to fight Xotani after all. I'm just not sure what the most exciting way to make that happen is.

Here is a thread where we are discussing this.

[captain yesterday]

so i just got Mythic Adventures (PDF) mostly because i didn't want to wait til i could afford the full book price, and honestly after giving it a look over i don't see why not any already existing APs couldn't be made mythic with minimal effort:) an awesome book for sure, tho a more intense read will be necessary before i throw it in my games it does look pretty easy, great, great job Paizo!