hi,
very new player here, actually i'm going to play my first pathfinder game in a few days. i was doing some research, trying to understand the game as best as i can, when i encountered a rather confusing topic: dual weapon fighting and extra attacks because of attack bonus.
so i get how the attack penalties with and without feats work. but the stuff about the extra attacks in a turn starting from base attack bonus of +6 gets weird.
so i need a base attack bonus of +6 so that i get an extra attack in a turn. i can then use a full action to attack with both main hand and offhand on an opponent. if i need an extra attack for that, why would i choose to do a full turn action and attack with (let's take an example) my mainhand rapier and offhand (inferior) dagger instead of using those two attacks to just poke my opponent twice with my main hand rapier? or is that not how it works?
and what happens at the base attack bonus of +11 and +16 when i get a third and fourth attack?
if that's sorted out, how can i increase my base attack bonus faster than just waiting to get it from leveling up?
Ok, I'll try to help.
Your base attack bonus (BAB) attacks are seperate from additional attacks with your off hand. Firt, any time you have to move, draw a weapon, or otherwiese not make a full attack, you gte one attack at your full BAB. If you can make a full attack, you get one attack, plus another at -5, another at -10, etc, as long as you BAB is high enough (+6, +11, and so forth). You get these whether you are wielding one weapon or two.
Adding in a second weapon gives you an extra attack in addition to these, at -2 (assuming it is a light weapon with the Two Weapon Fighting feat). So your example of rapier and dagger , at BAB +6, you would get 3 attacks : +4/-1 with the rapier, and +4 with the dagger (you could choose to make your secondary (-1) attack with the dagger, but as you correctly identified that would normally be a poor choice).
Even before you get a normal extra attack at BAB +6, you can use two weapon fighting to make two attacks. For example, a BAB +3 character who fights with rapier and dagger gets two attacks at +1, one with each weapon.
Once your base attack gets to +6, you can take even more Two Weapon Fighting feats to give you multiple off-hand attacks if you like. A character with +6 BAB and Improved Two Weapon Fighting gets +4/-1 with their main hand, and +4/-1 with their off hand.
Sadly there is no way to really make your BAB go up any faster other than leveling. You can improve your chances to hit by increasing your Strength stat (or Dex if your are using Weapon Finesse) or by using masterwork/magical weapons. There are also feats like Weapon Focus and class features (depends on class) that can help.
I hope I helped make thing a little more clear. Two weapon fighting is somewhat tricky to pull off as a new player so if you have more questions or if I confused you more please don't hesitate to ask. It's more important to have fun than to make sure you get every little rule slavishly right when you're starting out anyway.
thanks a lot! i think i understand it now. so actually i have to see the two weapon fighting feat as 'an extra offhand attack', since the extra attacks from BAB will be put into the main hand.
i already thought dual wielding would be pretty tough for a new player, but i had to fill in the rogue role in our party. i was trying to figure things out with dual wielding to be able to put some damage on the table.
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I'll go one step further in the explanation. First, all characters have a potential off-hand attack that they can choose to use or not, even without the TWF feat. However, the default penalties are -6 to the main-hand and -10 to the off-hand if you lack the TWF feat; the only thing the feat does is reduce the penalties to something more reasonable; -4 for both. Using a light weapon as your off-hand will also reduce the penalties by -2 for each and this can stack or be independent of the TWF feat benefit. For best results, you should always TWF with both the feat and a light off-hand weapon.
Second, TWF mechanics only come into play if you're leveraging the associated penalties to gain additional attacks over your normal allowance. At Bab <= 5, you are only afforded one normal attack. If you take TWF penalties, you can get an additional attack with an off-hand weapon. If you have +6 BAB, you can make 2 attacks; one at +6 and the other at +1. Even if you have a weapon in each hand, say for example a Longsword and a Mace, so long as you stick to your BAB-allowed attacks, it is not two-weapon fighting. You could make both the +6 and +1 attacks with the longsword, with the mace, or one with each and you suffer no TWF penalty, neither to attack nor strength bonus to damage. Only if you choose to TWF to gain extra attacks over the two allowed do the penalties come into play.
Lastly, BAB-ordering only applies to attacks given through high enough BAB. If you have +11 BAB, you have 3 iterative attacks; one at +11, one at +6, and one at +1. Overall, they must occur in that sequence; you can't do the +6 attack prior to the +11 and you cannot do the +1 attack prior to the +6, etc. But, if you have extra attacks from TWF, Haste, or any other source, these are not subject to BAB ordering so you can "shuffle" in your off-hand attacks, your extra Haste attack, your extra FoB attack from spending a Ki point, etc. as you please, placing them before all your iteratives, after all your iteratives, or between any iteratives you choose. There is a similar process to BAB ordering among your off-hand attacks, but these are handled separately in that your "second off-hand" granted by ITWF cannot come prior to the standard off-hand everyone gets by default, and the "third off-hand" granted by GTWF cannot come prior to the "second off-hand".
So, to summarize:
Scenario A) If you have a Longsword in each hand, no TWF feat, BAB +5, and a net attack bonus (including BAB) of +10:
- You can make one attack with either longsword at +10
- You can make one main-hand attack with one longsword at +4 and an off-hand attack with the other at +0 and half strength
If you had TWF in the above scenario:
- You can make one attack with either longsword at +10
- You can make one main-hand attack with one longsword at +6 and an off-hand attack with the other at +6 and half strength
If you used a Longsword and Shortsword along with TWF:
- You can make one attack with either longsword or shortsword at +10
- You can make one main-hand attack with the longsword at +8 and one off-hand attack with the shortsword at +8 and half strength
- You can make one main-hand attack with the shortsword at +6 and one off-hand attack with the longsword at +6 and half strength
Scenario B) If you have a Longsword and a Shortsword, TWF feat, +6 BAB, and +10 net attack bonus with each weapon (including BAB):
- You can make the following attacks without TWF and all attacks get full Str bonus to damage:
--- Longsword +10/Shortsword +5
--- Longsword +10/Longsword +5
--- Shortsword +10/Longsword +5
--- Shortsword +10/Shortsword +5
- You can make the following attacks with TWF:
--- Longsword +8/Shortsword +8 (offhand)/Longsword +3
--- Shortsword +6/Longsword +6 (offhand)/Shortsword +1
(Note, this is not an exhaustive list of sequences, just a sample of what combos of main-hand and off-hand that can be made)
Scenario C) If you have a Longsword and a Shortsword, TWF and ITWF feats, +6 BAB, +12 net attack bonus with each weapon (including BAB):
- You can make the following attack sequences with TWF and the Shortsword as your off-hand:
- Longsword +10/Longsword +5/Shortsword +10/Shortsword +5
- Longsword +10/Shortsword +10/Longsword +5/Shortsword +5
- Longsword +10/Shortsword +10/Shortsword +5/Longsword +5
- Shortsword +10/Longsword +10/Longsword +5/Shortsword +5
- Shortsword +10/Longsword +10/Shortsword +5/Longsword +5
- Shortsword +10/Shortsword +5/Longsword +10/Longsword +5
In all cases, the second Longsword attack always happens some time after the first Longsword and the second Shortsword attack always happens some time after the first Shortsword. If you had a bonus attack from Haste, it could be inserted at any point; before the first attack, after the last attack, or between any two attacks and can be done with either weapon (though, arguably, if you use your designated off-hand weapon, you'd probably suffer the half strength to damage for it).
wow! that's a lot of numbers, haha! :D
but it was explained easily enough so i could understand it all.
thanks for all this information
Sorry to bump this thread a few months down the track (especially since I am new) but I have a relevant question and I figured it would be more appropriate than starting a new thread.
I am playing a level 6 Human Gunslinger with Rapid Reload, TWF and ITWF, using 2 double barrelled pistols.
As far as I can work out, this gives me an attack sequence of (with my ranged attack modifier at +10)
Pistol 1 +6/Pistol 2 +6/Pistol 1 +1/Pistol 2 +1
Would I be correct?
capncoolio wrote: Sorry to bump this thread a few months down the track (especially since I am new) but I have a relevant question and I figured it would be more appropriate than starting a new thread.
I am playing a level 6 Human Gunslinger with Rapid Reload, TWF and ITWF, using 2 double barrelled pistols.
As far as I can work out, this gives me an attack sequence of (with my ranged attack modifier at +10)
Pistol 1 +6/Pistol 2 +6/Pistol 1 +1/Pistol 2 +1
Would I be correct?
It's only tangentially related to it would have been a better idea to make a fresh thread. That having been said:
Presuming you use paper cartriages, with rapid reload you can reload as a free action, but you still need a free hand to do so. Weapon Cords were changed so they now take a move action to retrieve an attached weapon so you can't "juggle reload" anymore while taking constant full-attack. Thus, we get the following basis for your attacks:
+6 BAB, +10 (net) attack bonus, and two double-barreled pistols.
If you use the "double fire" option for each pistol, you can bypass the need for TWF at all:
Attack 1: Pistol 1 (x2), +6/+6
Attack 2: Pistol 2 (x2), +1/+1
Or, use each barrel in succession
Mainhand 1: Pistol 1-1, +6
Mainhand 2: Pistol 1-2, +1
Offhand 1: Pistol 2-1, +6
Offhand 2: Pistol 2-2, +1
In the first sequence, both barrels must be fired at the same target so you can hit, at most, 2 creatures, but it requires no additional feats. In the second sequence, you use TWF and eat -4/-4 peanlties for not using a light off-hand weapon, but you can target up to 4 enemies if need be. But the end result for both is the same attacks at the same net bonuses, just differing in how you may divide them up among targets. Alternatively, with just one double-barreled pistol, you can use the first attack sequence, but still have a hand free to reload at need. So even if you had 3 or 4 iterative attacks, you could fire both barrels at a target, free-action reload both barrels, and take your next iterative attack. I'd say that's a much better option and saves feats for other uses.
Kazaan wrote: It's only tangentially related to it would have been a better idea to make a fresh thread. Okay, thanks. I suppose guns make it a little different yeah.
Kazaan wrote: That having been said:
Presuming you use paper cartriages, with rapid reload you can reload as a free action, but you still need a free hand to do so. Weapon Cords were changed so they now take a move action to retrieve an attached weapon so you can't "juggle reload" anymore while taking constant full-attack. Thus, we get the following basis for your attacks:
+6 BAB, +10 (net) attack bonus, and two double-barreled pistols.
If you use the "double fire" option for each pistol, you can bypass the need for TWF at all:
Attack 1: Pistol 1 (x2), +6/+6
Attack 2: Pistol 2 (x2), +1/+1
Or, use each barrel in succession
Mainhand 1: Pistol 1-1, +6
Mainhand 2: Pistol 1-2, +1
Offhand 1: Pistol 2-1, +6
Offhand 2: Pistol 2-2, +1
In the first sequence, both barrels must be fired at the same target so you can hit, at most, 2 creatures, but it requires no additional feats. In the second sequence, you use TWF and eat -4/-4 peanlties for not using a light off-hand weapon, but you can target up to 4 enemies if need be. But the end result for both is the same attacks at the same net bonuses, just differing in how you may divide them up among targets. Alternatively, with just one double-barreled pistol, you can use the first attack sequence, but still have a hand free to reload at need. So even if you had 3 or 4 iterative attacks, you could fire both barrels at a target, free-action reload both barrels, and take your...
I'm wondering whether I just buy a revolver (Advanced are allowed in this campaign) and take the lost move action with Rapid Reload every 3 rounds.
The idea of a free action reload appeals to me, but if, say, I took a pepperbox early firearm, that would require 6 free actions right? While it's *technically* allowed, it would probably cause the DM to step in.
Thanks for replying by the way, I appreciate the input and help. :D
I've been trying to find a way to reload two single handed weapons without having to drop them, but short of an eidolon or something, I can't come up with anything.
An Alchemist dip for Vestigial Arm would work. There are also magic items and spells that can automate your reloading.
Kazaan wrote: An Alchemist dip for Vestigial Arm would work. There are also magic items and spells that can automate your reloading. I looked at Vestigial Arm/Tentacle, but that would require sacrificing my sixth GS level (and losing my second attack).
Any advice on what magic items/spells can help?
Reloading Hands is a touch spell that can be placed on any ranged weapon or firearm (ie. crossbow, pistol, etc). It'll automatically load the weapon once per round, so if you start with the weapon loaded, you can fire each weapon for two salvos that round and then reload at the beginning of the next round for one salvo per round. The Beneficial Bandolier is a belt that lets you command it to teleport a single round into a firearm as a swift action; better for single-barreled weapon, but there you go.
Honestly, I think it'd be better to just go with a Revolver + Rapid Shot. 2 full-attacks followed by a move action to reload, all for only -2 to attack rather than -4. When you get your third iterative, you can fire off your 4 shots as a full-attack, then fire one last shot as a standard next round plus reloading as a move, only wasting one potential shot. Or, if you have someone to cast Reloading hands on your weapon, it will stay loaded for the duration of the spell. I'd say that's probably your best bet.
Kazaan wrote: Reloading Hands is a touch spell that can be placed on any ranged weapon or firearm (ie. crossbow, pistol, etc). It'll automatically load the weapon once per round, so if you start with the weapon loaded, you can fire each weapon for two salvos that round and then reload at the beginning of the next round for one salvo per round. The Beneficial Bandolier is a belt that lets you command it to teleport a single round into a firearm as a swift action; better for single-barreled weapon, but there you go.
Honestly, I think it'd be better to just go with a Revolver + Rapid Shot. 2 full-attacks followed by a move action to reload, all for only -2 to attack rather than -4. When you get your third iterative, you can fire off your 4 shots as a full-attack, then fire one last shot as a standard next round plus reloading as a move, only wasting one potential shot. Or, if you have someone to cast Reloading hands on your weapon, it will stay loaded for the duration of the spell. I'd say that's probably your best bet.
Ooh, interesting!
Thanks for all the help, I'll stop bugging you now :P
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