Well, if you don't want the "little girl with big monster" gig, what kind did you want? The usual gig is to go with a quadruped so you can nab pounce and a pair of claws to get all 3 attacks going all the time right from the go.
Character concept though is really up to you, but I'm sure if you don't want to do "little girl with a big monster" you can probably come up with something else. Possibly "Big guy with a bigger monster"? There was a thread from a while ago that had a number of character concepts, and plenty of them were pretty cool I thought.
You make your Eidolon the spirit of your deceased wife/parent/elder sibling that now watches over you.
You could make a religious Summoner, who shapes his Eidolon after an Avatar/the holy creature of his god.
You might make a creepy Summoner, who is in sexual relationship with his Eidolon. The Eidolon might look like a beautiful woman or some gruesome tentaclemonster. The relationship might be two-sided or one sided.
The Eidolon could be your Guardian Angel/Spirit, who watched over you from childhood.
You might be some insane cultist, whose Eidolon is draws upon the cthulluresk borders of the universe to shape itself from unmade nothing.
You instead have a pact with an Archdevil/Demon Lord to send you forth his Eidolon, in exchange for your soul someday. You agreed because you were lusting for power/wanting to live without fear/searched revenge on someone.
You might consider yourself an artist, whose Major Opus is your Eidolon. This might just be the perfect vital creature or instead have a surrealistic look or even look like a Picasso.
You might instead be a down to earth dwarven crafter, whose clockworklike Eidolon gets perfected by complex calculations.
Maybe you are weird scientist obsessed with and expert for a certain creature type, whom he models his Eidolon after.
Or perhaps you look and behave just like wizard. You are a mage, with a the narrow focus on buffs, some utility spells and summoning.
1001 Summoner concepts is on here somewhere
I posted a link like, three post up. Here it is again.
I guess the next question is how to make a biped eidolon as effective as the pouncing quadruped. Or close.
You don't.
I think you could, if you focused on getting reach with a bunch of slam attacks. But it would be a bit tough.
You might, but the fact is pounce as a single point and only available to quadruped makes that base form pretty kickbutt. You can even give it arms for 2 evolution points, not that you really need to. The ability to constantly get off full attacks and always having the maximum number of natural attacks is pretty hard to beat. More so a bunch of reach and slams is going to take a lot of evolution points.
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I guess the next question is how to make a biped eidolon as effective as the pouncing quadruped. Or close.You don't.This.
Pounce is a seventh level ability you get at level 1. Not taking it is like making a weapon finesse barbarian. Cute but hamstringing your own character.
Pounce does less damage at first level than a charging barbarian with a greatsword.
You could just as easily make a biped eidolon with a slam attack or melee weapon and have it charge.
Pounce does less damage at first level than a charging barbarian with a greatsword.
You could just as easily make a biped eidolon with a slam attack and have it charge.
I would certainly hope that a single class feature isn't pushing as much damage as a barbarian. You could easily make a lot of things, but if you charge with a biped eidolon D8+3. If you charge with a quadruped with claws and pounce at level one you can easily do 2x(D4+2)+(D6+2). Hit chance excluded, but the hit chance difference is a single point so... probably not a huge difference.
You would certainly hope a classes defining feature does not allow them to perform as well other other classes?
Yes, I would hope a single feature of one class isn't better than another class as a whole. That's not really unreasonable.
How very biased of you.
What bias? I would need a bias to be biased.
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I would certainly hope that a single class feature isn't pushing as much damage as a barbarian. You could easily make a lot of things, but if you charge with a biped eidolon D8+3. If you charge with a quadruped with claws and pounce at level one you can easily do 2x(D4+2)+(D6+2). Hit chance excluded, but the hit chance difference is a single point so... probably not a huge difference.Pounce does less damage at first level than a charging barbarian with a greatsword.
You could just as easily make a biped eidolon with a slam attack and have it charge.
Eidolon Pounce vs CR1
.7(2.5+2)+.7(.05)(4.5) = 3.3075 * 2 = 6.615.7(3.5+2)+.7(.05)(5.5) = 4.0425
DPR = 10.6575
Barbarian Charge vs CR1
.95(7+13)+.95(.1)(20) = 20.9
The barbarian will, on average, nearly double the eidolon's DPR at level 1.
Is it too much to ask for a classes defining feature to do half what a barbarian can manage?
Bias: summoner is overpowered because the eidolon can pounce for an average of 10 DPR while the barbarian is not overpowered while charging for 20 DPR.
Is it too much to ask for a classes defining feature to do half what a barbarian can manage?
I never said something was wrong with that! I said something was wrong if the Eidolon was out performing the Barbarian.
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Not really.
A generic build fighter is going to fall between the two at first level, assuming a high strength and two-handed weapon.
At first level, the quad eidolon has low strength, low damage dice and 20/x2 weapons.
A biped eidolon with a slam can charge for +8 (1d8+6/20/x2) or +6 (1d8+9/20/x2) depending on how you build it. Still less than a fighter, but you don't stand there feeling useless when fighting something with DR 5.
Only getting a single attack off hurts more as you level. Manufactured weapons miss out on iteratives/offhand and you lose more and more natural attacks as your level increases. The difference between biped and quadruped is only a few evolution points, but only quadruped ever gets access to pounce, even a biped grows an extra pair of legs.
The Eidolon doesn't start to compete for damage until you can build it into a giant thing of mutlt-armed destruction. Though I find it kind of lackluster that to have a competitive Eidolon you have to have a multi-armed creature.
I've been toying with a Summoner for a while. I don't want to make a multi-armed Eidolon. But anything that isn't a multi-armed Eidolon gaining multiple attacks is inferior to every single other class. You can't make up for it with Spellcasting.
It limits what you can do with your Eidolon when your class-defining feature isn't anywhere near as good as what other classes are doing unless you build it a certain way. I don't think every single Summoner (except a Master Summoner) having to build a multi-armed creature is very interesting.
I keep imagining a summoner's convention. All of them standing around with multi-armed Eidolons making fun of guy's that actually try to use an Eidolon that looks like a real creature. "Oh look at that guy. He thinks his angel eidolon is something special. He only has two arms and some wings. What a total weakling." Or the "Look at that guy trying to make a dragon Eidolon. My multi-limbed looks like nothing you've ever seen before machine of destruction will whip your sorry dragon's Eidolon's behind. Stupid choices with your eidolon."
Kind of ruins the whole feel for the class for myself. It would really be nice to have a creature capable of competitive damage output without needing to have 6 to 8 sets of limbs.
"Oh look at that guy. He thinks his angel eidolon is something special. He only has two arms and some wings. What a total weakling." Or the "Look at that guy trying to make a dragon Eidolon. My multi-limbed looks like nothing you've ever seen before machine of destruction will whip your sorry dragon's Eidolon's behind. Stupid choices with your eidolon."
Well the dragon Eidolon can easily be your Multiattackmaschine.
A generic Dragon would have up to 4 Claw attacks, one Bite attack and you could add Wings or a tail Slap as well. There are enough natural attack on a dragon to make a nice pouncing Eidolon.
It would mechanically be exactly the same as the standard quadruped Cat Eidolon in the beginning.
Though I agree, it can be annoying if one wants to build a certain Eidolon and feels the lack of Pounce. I also thought of flavouring my Tentacles as some beams of Light or energy whips or even invisible telekinetical arms wielding the swords like dancing weapons.
QUESTION: Does a pair of Claws count as one or two attacks for the purpose of the Eidolons maximum attacks?
QUESTION: Does a pair of Claws count as one or two attacks for the purpose of the Eidolons maximum attacks?
Each claw attack counts as one. You don't attack with a pair of claws, you attack with each one at a time. Also, you can only apply claws to the leg evolution once. So if your dragon has four legs your only getting two claw attacks from that. Regardless, dragons are Claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail usually, a total of six. No back legs needed! But summoners usually don't grab secondary attacks.
Kind of ruins the whole feel for the class for myself. It would really be nice to have a creature capable of competitive damage output without needing to have 6 to 8 sets of limbs.
Ditto, I don't like multi-armed monstrosities, but the summoners without that are missing out on extra primary attacks most likely.
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May I just point out at first level they're just as likely dead from 10 damage as they are from 20. Additionally a better example would be level 3 when the summoner has PA as well, or level 4 where the summoner will have haste. Try that math again at level 4. Just because the barbarian is better for 1-2 levels doesn't make it less overpowered. A +1 AoMF goes a lot farther than a +1 weapon.
Going by the Monster statistics table, the average CR1 has 15 hit points. The eidolon requires two rounds to kill vs the barbarians 1. In fact, the charging barbarian has a 92.36% kill rate, given his minimum damage on a hit is 15.
I could also try it again at level 6 when the barbarian starts getting iterative attacks
Or at level 11 when the barbarian is pouncing and getting his 3rd iterative
I addressed level 1 after the statement was made that pounce at level 1 is overpowered. It is not. It is less effective than charging with a single big attack.
*If your casting Haste, it is going to benefit the entire party, including the barbarian. Who gets more benefit from the Haste?
I guess the next question is how to make a biped eidolon as effective as the pouncing quadruped. Or close.
I second that one. I play a healing angel summoner and on a separate thread i was taught that was not optimal. The one KEY factor not making it optimal was POUNCE. That one ability is what made a celestial tiger animal companion more effective (at early levels) than my summoners Eidolon. POUNCE is such a huge advantage that i end up feeling almost stupid for not having picked a quadruped.
.75(13.5)+.75(.05)(13.5) = 10.63125
A biped eidolon with +2 STR, Slam and Power Attack has almost exactly the same DPR while charging as a quad eidolon.
The damage will be spikier though.
its the ability to move and full attack with 4 claws and a rake. its huge damage and tactical advantage to move and full attack.
Slam (Ex)
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
This seems kind of sad to me. You get one attack, instead of a claw attack. It does 1d8 damage, no strength bonus mentioned. So instead of 1d4+ 4 (or more) you get to do 1d8 instead. And it replaces the claws RAW so you get a 1d8 attack with no strength bonus instead of 2 1d4 +4. So err...why take this.
Is this a case of the write up not really explaining why its good.
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In the smallest party it will consist of Summoner, pet, Barbarian, Other, Other. Only 4 target's can get haste at 4. Additionally there's no assurance the barbarian in a random party WILL get haste given that this is PFS. In PFS if you chose barbarian over summoner and no one else provides haste the barbarian does less damage than that one spell. If you want to do it at level 6 go for it. Just keep in mind you don't get them on round 1. Additionally the barbarian shouldn't get haste unless the summoner gives it to him (in which case the extra attack should be counted toward the summoner's damage).
1. If the summoner is not selecting the barbarian for Haste there are issues at play other than class balance.
2. If your counting damage from Haste towards the caster, sorcerers and wizards are going to shame both summoner's and barbarians as they can cast more spells of any given level and devote far more resources towards those spells than a summoner.
3. If we are picking comparison points were specific classes shine (4th for the summoner), the 11th level comparison point will have the barbarian capable of self-hasting via Boots of Speed. At this level, the eidolon is unlikely to have more than 20% of his damage coming from a single attack, resulting in only a nominal increase in DPR. The barbarian is looking at a 35%-40% increase.
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Slam (Ex)
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
This seems kind of sad to me. You get one attack, instead of a claw attack. It does 1d8 damage, no strength bonus mentioned. So instead of 1d4+ 4 (or more) you get to do 1d8 instead. And it replaces the claws RAW so you get a 1d8 attack with no strength bonus instead of 2 1d4 +4. So err...why take this.
Is this a case of the write up not really explaining why its good.
You get to add your strength to all natural attacks, as normal. It's better for bipeds because it's better to have one big attack if you plan on moving and attacking. Because bipeds can't get pounce. Hell, at level 2 it takes all the eidolon's evolutions just to get axe proficiency.
I really wanted to make an angelic armor guy with a big axe, but that seems really, really inefficient for eidolons, especially now that the amulet of mighty fists got discounted.
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Not only do you get to add strength to all natural attacks, you get to add 1.5x strength if you possess only a single natural attack.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Hell, at level 2 it takes all the eidolon's evolutions just to get axe proficiency
Don't spend your evolutions taking full martial proficiency. Spend a feat to become proficient with a single weapon of your choice.
I would recommend taking slam and power attack at level 1. At 3rd level take your weapon proficiency and reallocate the evolution point you spent on slam.
In PFS your hands are pretty tied. Pounce is that good.
In the last House game I played in I talked to my DM and asked if adding Limbs/Claws could give me the extra attacks but describe it as only having the original 4 limbs and just using the front 2 claws multiple times. It didnt change mechanic wise... just visually my pet was a normal looking(well normal for a mythical creature) 4 legged beast.
Or the "Look at that guy trying to make a dragon Eidolon. My multi-limbed looks like nothing you've ever seen before machine of destruction will whip your sorry dragon's Eidolon's behind. Stupid choices with your eidolon."8(
My summoner has a dragon eidolon.
Sorry, Arthantos. If you're having fun that's the point of the game.
I'm a bit of a min-maxer. I've been trying to come up with an interesting Eidolon. Every max damage build is a Huge 6 to 8 armed guy wielding kuris with Multi-weapon fighting, Double Slice, Power Attack, Arcane Strike (after spending one point to get an arcane (Sp)). My summoner focuses on crafting so he can spend his life building items for his Eidolon and himself since they share slots. I remember this wasn't the case when the Summoner class first came out. Hard to rationalize this type of character in my mind.
I play in a party of min-maxers. It just isn't fun to be the smallest boy in a party of giants. Some people don't mind, I don't care for it. If I don't make a multi-armed, huge damage machine the other players will make my Summoner seem weak.
Something I would like to know: What do you do with the Summoner character? What does he do? Do you just buff your Eidolon? Does he add to damage?
I'm trying to plan out my Summoner. It seems he only has two paths.
1. A Dominator that takes over the minds of creatures with low will saves to add his army.
2. A buffer who spends his time buffing up his Eidolon. Maybe uses Use Magic Device to add some damage with wands or other items.
How do you Summoners build the Summoner character? What feats? What does he do while his Eidolon is fighting?
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2) I wasn't. There aren't often true casters at my tables, most are attempts at CODZILLA, summoners, paladins, Rangers, and inquisitors.3) So the barbarian is better than the PET at levels 1,2,11. Or 1/4th of your pathfinder career. Additionally the +1 to hit is likely a 5% bump for the pet while the barb should be hitting on a 2 for his primary and possibly first iterative.
4) You're comparing the barbarian AS A CLASS, to the summoner's PET. Even if the pet only did 60% damage if the summoner does 50% they...
2. Everybody who screams about full casters being overpowered should consider the implications of comments like this one.
3. Barbarians are higher DPR than the summoner at all save a couple of break points. You cannot point at a single level and say the results at that one point define the class. I have not run the numbers at level 4-5 with and without Haste, but even if the eidolon did pull ahead, it would not be by much. Haste just does not give a quad the same increase to DPR that it would to most melee classes.
4. The eidolon is the defining feature of the entire class. It is both the summoners offense and his defense.
Something I would like to know: What do you do with the Summoner character? What does he do? Do you just buff your Eidolon? Does he add to damage?
I'm trying to plan out my Summoner. It seems he only has two paths.
1. A Dominator that takes over the minds of creatures with low will saves to add his army.
2. A buffer who spends his time buffing up his Eidolon. Maybe uses Use Magic Device to add some damage with wands or other items.
How do you Summoners build the Summoner character? What feats? What does he do while his Eidolon is fighting?
I made my summoner a high strength half orc with a great axe. First round I apply a buff, usually defensive one, to myself or eidolon, next turn I charge in an add my DPR to the party. 1d12+6 isn't bad to add, 3/4 BAB isn't that much of a handicap in a class that can self buff and comes with a flanking buddy. I made my build focused on being a good secondary combatant. It lowers the demand on the somewhat limited number of spells per day so you don't spend so many per encounter.
Alternatively you can go with a half elf and take ancestral arms for a better weapon than a great ax. A reach weapon is pretty good, as it lets you fight behind a meat shield. At first level you can't take the power attack feat (which you might not even want being a 3/4 BAB character) but there are plenty of other good feats you can go for. Combat reflexes is quite good if you go the reach route.