In a game I played recently we ran into a little problem with the persistent spell mechanic and spells that have two saves.
Persistent spell rule wording: (found in the advanced player's guide)
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.
Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.
So how does this work with spells that have two saves?
The spell we were using was Aqueous Orb:(also advanced player's guide)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of water and a glass bead)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect 10-ft.-diameter sphere
Duration 1 round/level
Reflex negates.
You create a rolling sphere of churning water that can engulf those it strikes. The aqueous orb can move up to 30 feet per round, rolling over barriers less than 10 feet tall. It automatically quenches any non-magical fires and functions as dispel magic against magical fires as long as those fires are size Large or less.
Any creature in the path of the aqueous orb takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. A successful Reflex save negates this damage, but a Large or smaller creature that fails its save must make a second save or be engulfed by the aqueous orb and carried along with it. Engulfed creatures are immersed in water and must hold their breath unless capable of breathing water. They gain cover against attacks from outside the aqueous orb but are considered entangled by its churning currents, takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage at the beginning of their turn each round they remain trapped. Creatures within the orb may attempt a new Reflex save each round to escape into a random square adjacent to the aqueous orb. The orb may hold one Large creature, 4 Medium, or 16 Small or smaller creatures within it.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and churns in place. An aqueous orb stops if it moves outside the spell's range.
(end spell description)
So, how does this work with persistent spell? So the persistent spell effect would apply to the first save, but what about the second? Would they have to reroll for that save too? The effect does say 'whenever', but other then that it doesn't really explain it.
Anyone have any ideas?
My initial reaction is that you have to make a total of four rolls, two for each save. The feat is worded awkwardly, but I would assume that's because the author hadn't considered spells with multiple save,since there aren't that many.
That's my reading, too. Save twice against the damage, save twice against the engulfing effect.
To simplify, I would have affected targets roll the same save twice and take the worse result. This will give the same result but it's easier to read and understand. Specifically, I would reword Persistent spells as this:
Whenever a creature must make a saving throw for a persistent spell, it must roll twice and take the worse result
bump
It already looks like you got your answer, but if you want other people's opinions, then I might as well chime in.
Roll every save twice, take worse result.
The thing is we came up with this problem with a Venture Captain as the GM, and even he wasn't sure. So the more people the better, especially if they are other GMs.
For Aqueous Orb I would have the first save rolled twice. If either one failed then the second save would also be rolled twice. That seems to be RAW and RAI since you have to fail the first one before the second save even comes into affect.
For Aqueous Orb I would have the first save rolled twice. If either one failed then the second save would also be rolled twice. That seems to be RAW and RAI since you have to fail the first one before the second save even comes into affect.
The question assumes that they fail the first save because if they didn't then the second save wouldn't be relevant.
I'd say it's pretty clear now. The only argument that could be made would be to say that the first save is rolled twice, but if the target fails, the second save would only be rolled once. I do not see how this case could be argued for, considering that the the intent of Persistent Spell is to make saves much harder to succeed.
So: Roll every save from a persistent spell twice, take the worst result for each.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Since the Feat was written with single-save spells in mind, I'd probably rule that a Persistent Spell only causes one reroll, no matter how many saves the spell normally has.
So in the case of Aqueous Orb:
If they make the first save, Persistent kicks in and they have to roll it again. From then on, though, the spell functions as normal, so the second and later saves are only rolled once.
If they fail the first save, but pass the second, then Persistent kicks in on the second save instead, and they have to roll that one a second time. Again, after the reroll, the spell functions as normal and subsequent saves are only rolled once.
I second the Nightstalker interpretation
I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the second save. It feels like that would be specifically mentioned in the metamagic description if it were the case.
One could argue that the Aqueous orb has two effects: the damage and the engulfment. The Persistent metamagic states that:
Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect
Thus, each effect requires that the target reroll a successful save.
Also, what about recurring saves? For instance: Suffocation. Do you believe that Persistent only applies to the first successful save, and then never again? I feel like that makes the metamagic too weak for a spell slot increase of 2 levels.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the second save. It feels like that would be specifically mentioned in the metamagic description if it were the case.
One could argue that the Aqueous orb has two effects: the damage and the engulfment. The Persistent metamagic states that:
Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effectThus, each effect requires that the target reroll a successful save.
Also, what about recurring saves? For instance: Suffocation. Do you believe that Persistent only applies to the first successful save, and then never again? I feel like that makes the metamagic too weak for a spell slot increase of 2 levels.
The feat doesn't mention multi-save spells either way, and since the vast majority of spells are single-save (including most of the iconic spells, like fireball or disintegrate), it makes sense to me that the feat was probably designed with single-save spells in mind. The lack of mention of multi-save spells was probably an oversight.
For spells like suffocation, I think Persistent is still a good deal. It increases the chances of the target failing that initial save, which opens the door to all those subsequent saves and the horribleness they bring. Same for something like hold person or glitterdust. Having the target reroll every save seems like it'd make it way too hard to shake those effects, and those spells are built with the idea that they won't last their full duration.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The feat doesn't mention multi-save spells either way, and since the vast majority of spells are single-save (including most of the iconic spells, like fireball or disintegrate), it makes sense to me that the feat was probably designed with single-save spells in mind. The lack of mention of multi-save spells was probably an oversight.For spells like suffocation, I think Persistent is still a good deal. It increases the chances of the target failing that initial save, which opens the door to all those subsequent saves and the horribleness they bring. Same for something like hold person or glitterdust. Having the target reroll every save seems like it'd make it way too hard to shake those effects, and those spells are built with the idea that they won't last their full duration.
Mm, perhaps you're right. Though I see no problem with making a spell like Glitterdust that much harder to resist on subsequent saves, considering that it would now be a 4th-level spell.
Then again, applying it to really difficult save spells like Mass Suffocation could result in nigh-impossible saves.
Overall, I think it could be taken either way, with DM discretion to keeps things balanced. It seems to me that it's more RAW to apply it to every save, but more RAI (and perhaps balanced) to apply it once. Whatever is more fun, I suppose!
My vote is for 2 rolls for both saves. Keeping track of how many times each target has rerolled is more bookkeeping than this is worth.
I think you make 2 rolls on both. The feat says "Whenever a creature... succeeds on its saving throw..." If it succeeds at the second saving throw, then it succeeds on its saving throw, so it should be subject to the effect.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a rather different interpretation: Persistent Spell doesn't work at all with Aqueous Orb.
Persistent Spell specifies when "a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area" makes it's save. Aqueous Orb is neither a targeted nor area spell. It creates a ball of water that you can direct. The spell itself doesn't really directly impact a creature (thus "Spell Resistance: No").
No additional saves at all.
I have a rather different interpretation: Persistent Spell doesn't work at all with Aqueous Orb.
Persistent Spell specifies when "a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area" makes it's save. Aqueous Orb is neither a targeted nor area spell. It creates a ball of water that you can direct. The spell itself doesn't really directly impact a creature (thus "Spell Resistance: No").
No additional saves at all.
Aqueous orb triggers when it shares a square with a creature.
That's being "within it's area" by any standard definition.
You'd have to read definitions into the feat that the feat didn't use to have it say 'or an area effect spell'.