Hey forum! First time - long time!
Here is my dilemma. I am building a biped weapon wielding Eidolon. For flavor (my Eidolon is actually my twin brother that was strangled in the womb) it will remain as human looking (but shadowy) for as long as possible. No six armed mutants, etc.
The issue is this. Which of the following is most efficient or effective?
a) Spend a feat on a martial or exotic weapon. This saves four evolution points and allows for min/maxing one particularly good weapon.
b) Spend 4 evos on simple and martial.
This is a HUGE evolution sink but gives great flexibility. Found a magical great flail no one can use? Dump the greatsword. Enemy at a distance? Pull out your longbow. It also saves feats for Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush (for my controller summoner build), Furious Focus, etc. Feats seem more important in a weapon build than a natural build.
c) Take simple weapon as a feat and martial weapon as an evolution? Or this this just a half-measure? Or legal?
Any thoughts? Cheers!
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Weapon wielding Eidolons are just a smidge behind the curve right out the gate, so I'd probably just go ahead and spend the evolution points so you can pick up the necessary feats to effectively use whatever combat style you decide to have him go with (ranged, two-handed, two-weapon, etc.). Over the course of the eidolon's life in play you'll miss those 4 evolution points a lot less than you'll miss those feats.
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I would spend the feat on a weapon and use the evolution points for increased strength and AC. Raising your strength from 16 to 18 gives +1 to-hit, +2 damage if using a two handed weapon. Compare to Power Attack + Weapon Focus granting +0 to-hit, +3 damage.
Eidolons are very fragile at low level, with only 6 hit points.
Compare that to the 9 hit points most wizards start with.
Also, consider taking the Shadow Blend evolution at level 1. It fits thematically with your description and gives 20% concealment.
Shadow Blend is a high priority for me - absolutely the theme I'm going for. Also (if it matters) the Eidolon starts at lvl 3. Fir the first two levels I used only summons while keeping my twin a secret from the party.
@Nagual- I'd use your claws at the beginning and take power attack, and then when you level up spend a feat for proficiency.
@Artanthos- You're forgetting Life Link; Eidolons have as much HP as themselves AND however many hit points their masters are willing to summon.
For my own character I took exotic weapon proficiency to get the bastard sword, then spent my evolution points on strength and reach. It's been working out quite well.
GM ruled that I can't use the reach evo on a weapon. Other than on a weapon with reach. @Son of the V - Any particular reason for the Bastard Sword?
So far some great food for thought. Thanks!
Thanks Gjorbjonb. The GM houseruled that option C was viable. Really, who cares how the simple weapon proficiency was obtained, so long as it exists for martial weapon prof.
Option D: Additional Traits (Heirloom Weapon and Trait of choice) as a feat.
GM ruled that I can't use the reach evo on a weapon. Other than on a weapon with reach. @Son of the V - Any particular reason for the Bastard Sword?
So far some great food for thought. Thanks!
I went with the bastard sword for the image of a maid wielding a ridiculously large sword...and the crit range, but mostly the image.
And why won't your GM let you take reach? Your bipedal eidolon's arms extend fine if she were just using her claws, but won't if she has a blade in her hand? That makes no sense.
Ssalan, what is the reason you think an eidolon can't take EWP until lv three? The feat's only requirement is a +1 BAB, and a eidolon gets that at lv one.
The GM thought reach with claws (or other natural weapon) was related to incredibly long arms (or neck, or feet, etc.). Slenderman? I can still get reach with Enlarge Person - just not with a 'longer' long sword. Theoretically why couldn't a PC spend a feat to add reach to their weapons. I don't mind the consistency. Absurdly long arms wouldn't fit my flavor.
The GM thought reach with claws (or other natural weapon) was related to incredibly long arms (or neck, or feet, etc.). Slenderman? I can still get reach with Enlarge Person - just not with a 'longer' long sword. Theoretically why couldn't a PC spend a feat to add reach to their weapons. I don't mind the consistency. Absurdly long arms wouldn't fit my flavor.
I'd put that as a question on the Rules board. Because my summoner is one of my PFS characters, and I've never, and none of my GM's have ever required me to, play the reach evolution that way.
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Theoretically why couldn't a PC spend a feat to add reach to their weapons.
They can. it's called Lunge.
It sounds like your GM hasn't bothered to read the rulebook. Not a good sign.
I stand corrected. I knew that Eidolon's had 3/4 BAB progression, had forgotten that they have their own unique and excellent scale.
Ssalan, what is the reason you think an eidolon can't take EWP until lv three? The feat's only requirement is a +1 BAB, and a eidolon gets that at lv one.
Actually, Eidolons have full BAB progression, it's just that they don't have full HD progression, so it's easy to make that mistake.
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Actually, Eidolons have full BAB progression, it's just that they don't have full HD progression, so it's easy to make that mistake.I stand corrected. I knew that Eidolon's had 3/4 BAB progression, had forgotten that they have their own unique and excellent scale.
Ssalan, what is the reason you think an eidolon can't take EWP until lv three? The feat's only requirement is a +1 BAB, and a eidolon gets that at lv one.
Animal Companions would be 3/4 progression and just over 3/4 HD progression then, huh? Man, eidolons really do tromp all over Animal Companions :)
I'd go with a weapon feat. Greatsword is the best twohander IMHO.
But I'd probably go with a Fuchard, it has the same crit and damage as an Elven Curveblade, but with the reach and trip qualities. And as an Eidolon can get downright obscene strength scores, they are decent trippers. Plus if you just want to kill stuff, keen up the blade, and it works fine for that as well. Pour your much more valuable evolution points into improved strength (and the odd improved natural armour, plus large size at level 8), and you should have a workable Eidolon. Besides, flight is right around the corner, and skilled (perception) is always useful. Those four evolution points are IMHO best spend elsewhere.
Do remember that you can switch evolution points out every level. You might even get your GM to let your Eidolon retrain its feat choice, just as a character can.
This all rides on that you will be able to pick up a magical item. A Fuchard isn't all that common, y'know? If your GM runs a campaign where it is hard to get your own choice of weapon, I'd go with option C, even though it is a houserule.
Animal Companions would be 3/4 progression and just over 3/4 HD progression then, huh? Man, eidolons really do tromp all over Animal Companions :)Actually, Eidolons have full BAB progression, it's just that they don't have full HD progression, so it's easy to make that mistake.I stand corrected. I knew that Eidolon's had 3/4 BAB progression, had forgotten that they have their own unique and excellent scale.
Ssalan, what is the reason you think an eidolon can't take EWP until lv three? The feat's only requirement is a +1 BAB, and a eidolon gets that at lv one.
That seems to be the general consensus, with a few exceptions. The animal companion does start with 2 HDs though, but then they have some odd provision that they can't get a feat at first level that requires a +1BAB. (I know why that is, just seems silly)
Thanks all - then does 'Craft Magical Arms and Armor' become 'un-do-withoutable' for the Slugger Summoner? Ensuring that a magical fauchard, greatsword, falcion, etc. can become available.
And comparing lunge to reach is a stretch. No BAB requirement, no AC penalties, AoO potential. But I digress.
Cheers!
I'd say just pick a common enough weapon and try to keep it up to date.
My question is what do you want to do with the summoner himself?
The summoner is a battlefield controller using grease, pits, glitterdust, enlarge, etc. to force enemies into sub-optimal tactics. Makes combat reflexes quite important to the Eidolon build.
k I just have to ask... how can you strangle somebody in the womb?
k I just have to ask... how can you strangle somebody in the womb?
At the risk of getting racy I'l just say it's entirely possible. BEyond that it is a subject best not discussed.
umbilical cord. I'm actually leaving that open to the GM to fill in the gaps to help the campaign. Maybe I did it, perhaps an accident, perhaps a sacrifice from my Cheliaxian heritage? Might not be my brother at all but a disguised outsider who will turn my NG summoner to NE.
k I just have to ask... how can you strangle somebody in the womb?Very carefully...
With teeny, tiny fingers.
The eidolon is an outsider and, if you look at the creature rules, outsiders can wield both simple and martial weapons. By terms of the Eidolon, is this still valid?
Nope. Eidolons don't come with any proficiencies.
Why do you think the martial training evolution is a 'thing'? If they could use those weapons from the get go, then there would be no reason to ever take them.
The reason it works like this is because the designers wanted it to work like this. Generally, it is best just to leave the overarching game logic and eidolons in seperate spheres...they do not play well together....
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Not sure if you're using the Unchained or the Evolved (APG) Summoner here. With the fer, I strongly recommend the Azata subtype for free martial weapons. Pretty much solves the problem for you.
Otherwise, it kind of depends on the DM and their loot style. If you can invest in one magic weapon and pay to have it upgraged, then the martial weapon proficiency feat is the clear way to go. Craft Magic Arms on the Summoner can help take care of this if there aren't any Magical Walmarts in the setting. If loot is scarce or randomized, then you can always rely on the 2 point version of the proficiency evolution: longspears have nearly the same stats as a glaive and crossbows are good enough for a backup. Upgrade it to the 4-pointer when you get some rad loot that requires it. Until said rad loot, slam attacks are the most "human looking" of your attacks and it can even be evolved to have reach.
But really the feat path is just fine. Proficiency, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Lunge are the only "must have" feat choices in the mercifully simple 2handed fighting style.
The eidolon is an outsider and, if you look at the creature rules, outsiders can wield both simple and martial weapons. By terms of the Eidolon, is this still valid?
While obviously not the intent, given the existence of the existence of the Weapon Training evolution, I don't really see any reason it would lose this Outsider trait.
Eidolons are Outsiders, and nothing states it loses it.
It's more of an implied change.
I second the Fauchard suggestion. I have a level 14 eidolon in a home campaign that uses reach evolution, lunge, large size evolution, and combat reflexes to great effect. AoOs are your friend.
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I thought that it'd be better that you two grew up as twins, really close, until he was taken as a sacrifice to gain the favour of some devil(bonus points if you had to watch the entire procedure, but remain unable to help him).Then your mind shattered, and you wished everyday that he was never taken from your side..and one day, the impossible happened.
Works also for occultist backstory. Even better, considering the nature of phantoms.