Wielding 2 two-handed weapons

[blackbloodtroll]

Free hand to kick.

You stated this earlier.

[Crash_00]

Yes, as well as the fact that it's a mechanical free hand, not physical. Congratulations, you still do not have a point.

[blackbloodtroll]

Don't be a jerk.

[Crash_00]

I'm not, I'm pointing out that you are arguing a point that no one has put forth. Primary Hand and Off Hand are not physical hands. Never have been. You've seen me say this for days, remember back when you were on here posting HAAAANNNNDSSSS, before the devs actually stated what I was saying all along. Nothing has changed on my side of the debate since then. Don't try to pretend that it has. They are still mechanical terms. Yes they have to be free to be used.

Saying you need a free Primary Hand or Off Hand is not the same as saying you need a free hand, and you know it. Take your advice.

[blackbloodtroll]

Some of your posts were worded in a manner that suggested physical hands were needed to be free.

There were a few other poster who actually argued said restriction.

The "CONGRATULATIONS YOU IDIOT!" comments were not needed either.

[ArmouredMonk13]

@Crash_00:Your posts were implying that you need a free hand to attack. Your posts were also implying that BBT was an idiot.

@this thread:The FAQ said that you were already using your off hand to attack when wielding a 2h weapon. It IMPLIED that it was talking about your physical hands. This makes sense why you can't TWF with a greatsword and gauntlet or armor spikes, because you don't have the time in those 6 seconds you have to act, to attack with your off hand because there is no way that you have such incredible reflexes that you can spend all of your effort into swinging a big weapon, and then let go of it and swing a punch. That being said, if you have another weapon in your other hand, you could start to swing that as soon as you started to swing the heavy weapon. This isn't me looking at things from what you can do in reality, this is me looking at the rules an mixing them with common sense. Does this make sense?

[Crash_00]

I assume that if someone is going to try to counter debate a point that they will at actually read the thread. You're right, that's my bad. Page one has more than one post where I specifically state Off Hand and Primary Hand are not tied to your hands.

Anyone reading an implication that you need a free physical hand to attack was clearly ignoring those posts. So I implied that he was arguing something that no one was arguing against, which was true.

Then again, I feel that the CRB is quite clear on the matter as well if you're willing to read it in it's entirety.

As for what you say about the FAQ, you're wrong. There is no implication that it involved physical hands. Off hand is a mechanical term. It isn't tied to your hands. The implication is that you are still using your off hand on the two handed weapon so you can't use it for an off hand attack, whatever that attack may be with.

Primary Hand and Off Hand are just resources you use to make attacks, not physical hands.

[Quintain]

Does anyone have a link to Jason B's clarification on this FAQ?

[wraithstrike]

What about the FAQ does not clear it up?

[thaX]

Seems, from this thread and other conversations elsewhere (Don't Mention Earth Breakers, please...) that one only ever gets one Primary hand. This would make having two weapons used as Two Handed weapons something that can not happen.

Keep in mind, TWF is supposed to have the main weapon and a lighter off weapon. Could a Four armed race TWF with a Two Handed weapon and a dagger?

[Quintain]

This question has come up on the Dreamscarred forums lately and I was looking for any developer/FAQs related to multi-armed characters or two-weapon fighting to see if the greater arms ability of the Aegis to wield two two-handed weapons supported by the normal pathfinder rules or was an exception.

[Cascade]

HangarFlying wrote:

I don't agree that Jason's clarification or the FAQ affects this particular issue. The FAQ/Jason clarification is directed towards "normal" characters. SKR and Jason both recognize that there are feats, abilities, etc. that break the norm. Vestigial arms is an ability that breaks the norm.

This sums it up...

[Gauthok]

Barry Armstrong wrote:

Normal: You may fight with a weapon in both your primary and off-hand at a -6 and a -10 penalty respectively. (baseline ability)

TWF: You may fight with a weapon in both your primary and off-hand at a -4 penalty to each respectively. (-2 and -6 reduction in each penalty)

MWF: You may fight with a weapon in your primary and off-hands at a -4 penalty to each respectively. (-2 to primary and -6 each offhand reduction)

I see direct correlation and balanced mechanics. Am I missing something?

The only thing that's "missing" really, is Imp & Greater MWF, but there's a caveat in the feat that allows you to sub it in 1-for-1 swap, so one could logically assume you could progress in the feat chain for the extra iterative attacks normally.

Also of note: Imp & Greater MWF were Epic Feats in 3.5. So, there is a precedent that they shouldn't be available in normal levels.