Goblin Squad Member
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Its not instanced, you are in Eve space immediately.@Steelwing - the Crash Course is instanced. But as soon as you finish the crash course you're in the shared server.
(The Crash Course is a short tutorial teaching people how to fly and read the overview and a few other things)
Yeah, there is no instancing. You can be suicide ganked right out of the gate, although that is rare (no profit in it). But there are a number of small scams that new players (really new players) can get tricked into like, "Hey can you help me test out this new ammo? Just take some from that can and shoot me with it." Touch the can and poof!! Welcome to EVE!
The thing is, you won't touch another owner's can (or wreck) again and not expect it isn't a trap (trick).
You learn fast in EVE... You are not safe; Don't fly what you can't afford to lose; It's all about the isk (nothing personal).
Its not instanced, you are in Eve space immediately.@Steelwing - the Crash Course is instanced. But as soon as you finish the crash course you're in the shared server.
(The Crash Course is a short tutorial teaching people how to fly and read the overview and a few other things)
Yeah, there is no instancing. You can be suicide ganked right out of the gate, although that is rare (no profit in it). But there are a number of small scams that new players (really new players) can get tricked into like, "Hey can you help me test out this new ammo? Just take some from that can and shoot me with it." Touch the can and poof!! Welcome to EVE!
The thing is, you won't touch another owner's can (or wreck) again and not expect it isn't a trap (trick).
You learn fast in EVE... You are not safe; Don't fly what you can't afford to lose; It's all about the isk (nothing personal).
@All others that also replied
Yup that was my impression I was pretty sure that I had seen older players in the same system as well but its been quite a while since I ran up a new alt
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Goblin Squad Member
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This disconnect really makes me wonder, just how much Ryan Dancey does know about EVE. As a former executive of CCP, it is likely he never actually played the game from the "bottom up". His impressions of its toxic culture might be purely second hand, based on the care bear cries and troll rants on the forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed, The "toxic community" comments are not justified. Sure you have smack talk between PVPers in local but the game is packed with great people. Normal people... Even guys I have smacked with turned into friends on most occasions.
The greifing statements are a joke.
Scamming and etc exist but it usually is obvious stuff. Contracts that dont actually list what its titled as for sale or stuff like give me isk and I will double it in return.
Newbs starting out in Eve have never been instanced, and it is still the case as of 6 months ago.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed, The "toxic community" comments are not justified. Sure you have smack talk between PVPers in local but the game is packed with great people. Normal people... Even guys I have smacked with turned into friends on most occasions.
The greifing statements are a joke.
Scamming and etc exist but it usually is obvious stuff. Contracts that dont actually list what its titled as for sale or stuff like give me isk and I will double it in return.
Newbs starting out in Eve have never been instanced, and it is still the case as of 6 months ago.
Yeah I love all of the whines about the decimal point scam. Example
Item "A" has a regional average of 12.000.00 and someone lists it as 12.000.000.00 and some moron purchases at the 12 million price and then whines that they have been griefed. LOL, never heard of "Buyer Beware".
One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.
Ahh the good old days of jet canning and ore thievery, along with gate camps pre-jump-to-zero. EVE was a lot more brutal in its first 3 years, than it has been for the past 3 years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.
This is a common tactic. How revealing that you should use it...
Would you care to explain for the sake of the audience, factoring the time it took to find someone who would fall for this, waiting for them to actually grab the ore, and the fact their ship and most of their modules would be destroyed, how profitable of a tactic this was compared to mission running or mining?
Provided the obvious answer that you weren't doing it for the profits would you care to explain why you used this tactic that mainly hurt newbs who didn't know better rather than engaging in piracy against more challenging and prepared targets in low/null sec?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.
Sounds like intentional griefing to me...
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.This is a common tactic. How revealing that you should use it...
Would you care to explain for the sake of the audience, factoring the time it took to find someone who would fall for this, waiting for them to actually grab the ore, and the fact their ship and most of their modules would be destroyed, how profitable of a tactic this was compared to mission running or mining?
Provided the obvious answer that you weren't doing it for the profits would you care to explain why you used this tactic that mainly hurt newbs who didn't know better rather than engaging in piracy against more challenging and prepared targets in low/null sec?
Your first mistake is assuming he was doing it for profits and not doing it for pvp. Your second mistake is assuming that it only affects newbs. Your third mistake is assuming that high sec miners do not fit their ships with high end modules.
So since your obvious answer and conclusion to that false premise is mistaken... Would you care to rephrase your questions to the defendant?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.Sounds like intentional griefing to me...
My thoughts exactly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He did not spend his game time focused on ruining the other persons game play.
It's not very profitable, it's not at all challenging, it's certainly not using the game mechanics as intended, and it's not directed at an enemy or a threat. Why would you do it except to piss people off?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is using the game mechanics as intended
It is directed at the enemy, NBSI
It can be a threat if they return in a nice ship or with their corp, which they do
It can be profitable, read my above post
Again, your assume more then you can handle, and your conclusion to your false premises need to be re-evaluated. There is a lot more to doing it then pissing people off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good Bye!! Your point is nonsense, so past that who cares what you think.
Drakhan, it is a game mechanic. If you steal from others you are flagged for pvp. Doesnt matter how you steal from them.
I have used it and profited well. I made over 1 billion off one kill doing this. I ganked his hauler, he returned in a decked out Battleship and killed that.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is using the game mechanics as intended
It is directed at the enemy, NBSI
It can be a threat if they return in a nice ship or with their corp, which they do
It can be profitable, read my above post
Again, your assume more then you can handle, and your conclusion to your false premises need to be re-evaluated. There is a lot more to doing it then pissing people off.
I think it's very revealing that you have that position.
Whether or not a tactic is profitable is a question of fact. How many haulers fall for this trick per hour of fishing, and what is the average yield from one? What's the average yield from that time spent mining or running missions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Drakhan, it is a game mechanic. If you steal from others you are flagged for pvp. Doesnt matter how you steal from them.
Yes, because sneaking a single Tritanium into a huge jetcan that someone's been dumping into just to make them hostile--because they have no way to claim any of the rest of their ore without doing so now that you've added yours--doesn't feel exploitative in the least.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can just steal it in the first place. If they use a jet can, they are leaving stuff in space in a non secure container. It was intended to use this as a way to share a hauling container, and as a way for others to rob you. Anyone can put stuff into it and anyone can take stuff out of it.
The only time you are not aggroed by taking stuff out of a jet can is... if it was your stuff... it was your corps stuff... and if it was your fleets stuff...
Past that you are making yourself free to attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is using the game mechanics as intended
It is directed at the enemy, NBSI
It can be a threat if they return in a nice ship or with their corp, which they do
It can be profitable, read my above post
Again, your assume more then you can handle, and your conclusion to your false premises need to be re-evaluated. There is a lot more to doing it then pissing people off.
I think it's very revealing that you have that position.
Whether or not a tactic is profitable is a question of fact. How many haulers fall for this trick per hour of fishing, and what is the average yield from one? What's the average yield from that time spent mining or running missions?
Revealing for what? That Andius assumes too much and it is always that the other guy must be griefing?
Read my post previous to yours and get your answer.
1 billion ISK from one kill is a months worth of running missions.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is using the game mechanics as intended
It is directed at the enemy, NBSI
It can be a threat if they return in a nice ship or with their corp, which they do
It can be profitable, read my above post
Again, your assume more then you can handle, and your conclusion to your false premises need to be re-evaluated. There is a lot more to doing it then pissing people off.
I think it's very revealing that you have that position.
Whether or not a tactic is profitable is a question of fact. How many haulers fall for this trick per hour of fishing, and what is the average yield from one? What's the average yield from that time spent mining or running missions?
Revealing for what? That Andius assumes too much and it is always that the other guy must be griefing?
Read my post previous to yours and get your answer.
1 billion ISK from one kill is a months worth of running missions.
So, how often do you get that big of a score? Once ever, in several years of playing?
What's the variance; how often do you salt a can and have nobody steal from you, or go out looking for a can and not find a good one, or get outplayed and destroyed or denied?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.This is a common tactic. How revealing that you should use it...
Would you care to explain for the sake of the audience, factoring the time it took to find someone who would fall for this, waiting for them to actually grab the ore, and the fact their ship and most of their modules would be destroyed, how profitable of a tactic this was compared to mission running or mining?
Provided the obvious answer that you weren't doing it for the profits would you care to explain why you used this tactic that mainly hurt newbs who didn't know better rather than engaging in piracy against more challenging and prepared targets in low/null sec?
Oh I would gladly explain the reasoning...
First, this was back in the days of jet canning, which is virtually non existent now. But, back in the day it was very common for a lone high sec miner to load up multiple jet cans, mining for about 1.5 hours. Then he would warp to station, get a hauler and begin to empty the jet cans in the sequence they were created. Jet cans had a 2 hour timer, before they would go pooF!!
When you arrive into the field, you spot jet cans, usually unattended or they would be very shortly after you warped in. It was typical, you warp in and the miner warps out.
Then you take a loom at each can and find the oldest one. That is the one you take some out. You then go to the second can and you take some out and put the same amount back in.
Warp out yourself and wait. The hauler will wait until you are out of system. They will go and see some missing from first can. meanwhile about 15 minutes later you are back in, system.
Head to belt and if he is at 2nd can, just sit there, cloaked. As soon as he hits the right load, he starts flashing and you uncloak and begin attack.
Here is the beauty of it all... You don't even have to kill his ship. You just give him a good scare. Works even better with a couple of buddies.
He won't come back to the belt leaving behind between 1.5 - 2 hours worth of mined ore. Your buddies roll in with their haulers, and load up, oldest can first. Caldari Badgers were the best ore thief ships in game. They had good capacity and could arm fairly well, but were cheap to lose if you had to.
Now the big question...
Could we have made more isk in the time, if we just mined ourselves?
Of course we could have, but how freaking boring would that have been. Could the miner have come back with his own gang of PVP fit ships, sure they could.. sometimes they even did. Sometimes we even got war decc'd, and sometimes we war decc'd them.
If that is griefing in your mind, how revealing it is that you think so... This game is for you
What I hope to bring to PFO is to make those a victimize, smarter and shrewder players. I hope to liberate them of their care free, easy coin faucet.
When you are mining, or hauling resources to town, I want you to be nervous. I want you to look over your shoulder. When you get ambushed or SAD'd, I want you filled with dread. When you get to market unmolested, after venturing through multiple hexes of the wild lands, I want you to feel like you truly accomplished something.
You will either appreciate the gift I'm providing to you, or you will leave.
I have a question for someone that plays EVE.
When you do this "canister trick" and the person comes along and nabs the ore that isn't theirs, do they get some kind of warning (as they do it) that they are flagging themselves?
Since the Crimewatch update they do indeed get a warning that they are doing it. The aggression rules for Eve in hisec were unnecessarily byzantine in many ways and ended up confusing even experienced pilots at times. A cautionary note for all who's first response is add a system.
Complex systems == less understandable systems == more user errors due to misunderstandings
One of my favorite tricks was to go to a jet can and instead of take ore out, I would but a small amount of ore in. Then when the hauler returns and scoops up the rest of the can, he would go "red flashy" for my part of the ore and he was legit target.This is a common tactic. How revealing that you should use it...
Would you care to explain for the sake of the audience, factoring the time it took to find someone who would fall for this, waiting for them to actually grab the ore, and the fact their ship and most of their modules would be destroyed, how profitable of a tactic this was compared to mission running or mining?
Provided the obvious answer that you weren't doing it for the profits would you care to explain why you used this tactic that mainly hurt newbs who didn't know better rather than engaging in piracy against more challenging and prepared targets in low/null sec?
I dare say no one on these forums enjoys hurting people more than you, Andius. You just tend to want to do it in such a way that allows you to justify it to yourself as being the "good guy". But, hurting people, that's what you really love, isn't it? At least that's what I gather from reading most of your posts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... I want you filled with dread. ... the gift I'm providing to you...
I think that's what folks are talking about when they say your posts are "revealing".
The thing that I think makes it griefing is that you "trick" the guy into going "red flashy".
I'm very glad Ryan has made it clear this kind of nonsense won't happen in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do not know about griefing, but it could definitely be used to do so. It definitely sounds like an exploit. If it doesn't at least have a "You are about to steal someone else's stuff, are you sure you wish to continue?" affirmation, then it is a crap mechanic. If it does have that box, then the person has fair warning. Otherwise it is dirty and underhanded.
But then again, I guess if you aren't tracking every single resource unit by unit as you store it in the can then you are not playing 'Spreadsheets: The Game' properly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I want you filled with dread. ... the gift I'm providing to you...I think that's what folks are talking about when they say your posts are "revealing".
The thing that I think makes it griefing is that you "trick" the guy into going "red flashy".
I'm very glad Ryan has made it clear this kind of nonsense won't happen in PFO.
No Ryan has not made this clear
It is not griefing. Griefing is the intent of ruining someone elses game play. If he was griefing the guy, he would have followed that specific player everywhere he went and made sure he couldnt play the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not know about griefing, but it could definitely be used to do so. It definitely sounds like an exploit. If it doesn't at least have a "You are about to steal someone else's stuff, are you sure you wish to continue?" affirmation, then it is a crap mechanic. If it does have that box, then the person has fair warning. Otherwise it is dirty and underhanded.
But then again, I guess if you aren't tracking every single resource unit by unit as you store it in the can then you are not playing 'Spreadsheets: The Game' properly.
Actually it did warn you, even before the crime watch was added as steelwing said.
It would warn you that you are about to steal some elses stuff and then asks you to confirm if you are ok with it. You had to click yes to continue.
The mistake most people made is that they checked off the check box that says I do not want to be reminded of this again.
That is where they fail, they are never warned again.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It sounds like you could get tons more ISK by jumping in, scaring the victim away, then having your combatant steal all the ore and put it back in the same cans, then have the haulers take it away. Whoever has more firepower at the location at any one time owns all the ore.
Haulers that knew about the tactic should only fall for it when they think they can win the fight, assuming that the entire strategy isn't based around a poor interface that causes someone to accidentally take the ore that you put back in the can.
The net gain should be the miner+hauler shares, for the time cost of hauler+combatant+finding. As long as it takes less time for a combatant and a hauler to find a jet can miner than it takes that miner to load their cans, (adjusted for the expected losses), they will indeed make more ISK.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a question for someone that plays EVE.
When you do this "canister trick" and the person comes along and nabs the ore that isn't theirs, do they get some kind of warning (as they do it) that they are flagging themselves?
Since the Crimewatch update they do indeed get a warning that they are doing it. The aggression rules for Eve in hisec were unnecessarily byzantine in many ways and ended up confusing even experienced pilots at times. A cautionary note for all who's first response is add a system.
Complex systems == less understandable systems == more user errors due to misunderstandings
Thanks Steelwing.
I thought as much. In any case, it is a totally separate game and I don't think that defending/attacking a strategy as "lucrative" or not the best way for profit is sound argument or is necessarily needed. Not everyone plays the game with the approach of trying for maximum profit, but for whatever is possible and enjoyable to them.
Use what is left to you to use, as long as it is not a violation. If it is, it should be 1: Made impossible or 2: Adequately warned against when shown as possible.
In Eve, it is/was a possible strategy and was done for furthering a typical playstyle for that person's objectives and/or enjoyment.
In PfO they have promised that all players will know the possible consequences of their actions and the bonuses or penalties that they will incur. How that will be easily consumed and understood by the general public? No idea. Especially as everything grows more and more complex. Probably a combo of literature and in-game warnings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not know about griefing, but it could definitely be used to do so. It definitely sounds like an exploit. If it doesn't at least have a "You are about to steal someone else's stuff, are you sure you wish to continue?" affirmation, then it is a crap mechanic. If it does have that box, then the person has fair warning. Otherwise it is dirty and underhanded.
But then again, I guess if you aren't tracking every single resource unit by unit as you store it in the can then you are not playing 'Spreadsheets: The Game' properly.
Actually it did warn you, even before the crime watch was added as steelwing said.
It would warn you that you are about to steal some elses stuff and then asks you to confirm if you are ok with it. You had to click yes to continue.
The mistake most people made is that they checked off the check box that says I do not want to be reminded of this again.
That is where they fail, they are never warned again.
If they are/were in fact warned then it is a non issue. If they know that they are taking something that is not theirs, they asked for it
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like you could get tons more ISK by jumping in, scaring the victim away, then having your combatant steal all the ore and put it back in the same cans, then have the haulers take it away. Whoever has more firepower at the location at any one time owns all the ore.
Haulers that knew about the tactic should only fall for it when they think they can win the fight, assuming that the entire strategy isn't based around a poor interface that causes someone to accidentally take the ore that you put back in the can.
The net gain should be the miner+hauler shares, for the time cost of hauler+combatant+finding. As long as it takes less time for a combatant and a hauler to find a jet can miner than it takes that miner to load their cans, (adjusted for the expected losses), they will indeed make more ISK.
Firepower is no consequences, pvp experience and tactics is.
You are also missing the point that doing this is not really about profits, but about pvp.
Most of the time, the miner/hauler would show back up with a battleship or a few friends. That is where the fun is.
Edit: Bludd went for both... Profits and PVP, I left the minerals when I did this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No Ryan has not made this clear
I was referring to Ryan's crystal clear statements that you wouldn't get unintentionally or unknowingly flagged in PFO.
I remain convinced that the "trick" only works if the victim is unaware that he's getting flagged, and that in fact you are relying on that lack of knowledge in order for the "trick" to work.
I agree that players who turn off that notification bear a lot of the responsibility for the consequences. However, my intuition tells me that most of the players who turned off that notification probably did so because the UI made it cumbersome to have that notification enabled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will agree that judging actions to be griefing by the profitability seems a poor scale to use; there are many good reasons other than profit to attack somebody.
Were these containers necessary to your operations? In other words, would you be an ineffective miner without them, or were they just an added risk & reward? If the latter, than I don't think there's much of an argument there; if the former than I'd be pointing fingers more at the designers of the game than the people attacking you. Indeed, there seem to be many things about EVE that would make it unfun for someone who doesn't like constant conflict.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No Ryan has not made this clearI was referring to Ryan's crystal clear statements that you wouldn't get unintentionally or unknowingly flagged in PFO.
I remain convinced that the "trick" only works if the victim is unaware that he's getting flagged, and that in fact you are relying on that lack of knowledge in order for the "trick" to work.
I agree that players who turn off that notification bear a lot of the responsibility for the consequences. However, my intuition tells me that most of the players who turned off that notification probably did so because the UI made it cumbersome to have that notification enabled.
It was a window popup. More then likely they were mining with a friend and clicked the check box because it was a friend at the time. Not thinking that it could be a problem later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will agree that judging actions to be griefing by the profitability seems a poor scale to use; there are many good reasons other than profit to attack somebody.
Were these containers necessary to your operations? In other words, would you be an ineffective miner without them, or were they just an added risk & reward? If the latter, than I don't think there's much of an argument there; if the former than I'd be pointing fingers more at the designers of the game than the people attacking you. Indeed, there seem to be many things about EVE that would make it unfun for someone who doesn't like constant conflict.
It was a convenience for them to use jetcans. They can buy Secure Containers off the market, anchor them in space, and use those. They hold less cargo but are secure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Profit is almost irrelevant as to whether something is griefing or not. Profit can be a side effect of griefing, and who would not take that benefit if they could?
You could be gung-ho about recycling, but be sure to put your items that have a returnable deposit off to the side. You are not then acting to profit, you are just taking advantage of an opportunity present in what you are already doing.
Jet canning was something that was in no way necessary. If anything it was a way to get around grouping up. They used to fill a jet can goto the station leaving the can in place change to a bigger ship then return and pick up the can. It wasn't necessary to do in the least
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been griefed far more often than I've had people actually care about any profits or PvP. Exploiting a game system so you don't have to spend the time mining yourself then following me to another system and repeating the process on me is NOT fun.
I also have to agree that would not be fun and if it occurred frequently (to the point that my play was only to profit another) would make me look for another game. Hopefully it won't be that way in PfO.
Caveats apply in cases were I choose to return to the exact same area knowing that there is currently assured danger there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been griefed far more often than I've had people actually care about any profits or PvP. Exploiting a game system so you don't have to spend the time mining yourself then following me to another system and repeating the process on me is NOT fun.
That is in no way an exploit. It is a sandbox game, and stealing is part of the sandbox. You could use Secure Containers, or you could fly with friends.
Going to another system, then repeating what you did before expecting a different result is called insanity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been griefed far more often than I've had people actually care about any profits or PvP. Exploiting a game system so you don't have to spend the time mining yourself then following me to another system and repeating the process on me is NOT fun.That is in no way an exploit. It is a sandbox game, and stealing is part of the sandbox. You could use Secure Containers, or you could fly with friends.
Going to another system, then repeating what you did before expecting a different result is called insanity.
It'd be one thing if they were just stealing. No. They're exploiting a game system so they can get free kills in empire space in addition to the loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I want you filled with dread. ... the gift I'm providing to you...I think that's what folks are talking about when they say your posts are "revealing".
The thing that I think makes it griefing is that you "trick" the guy into going "red flashy".
I'm very glad Ryan has made it clear this kind of nonsense won't happen in PFO.
I favorited this comment myself, I love the bumper sticker quality you boiled my statement down to.
I'm very glad Ryan has made it clear, high sec mining with little or no risk is clearly the nonsense that won't happen in PFO.
Filling you with dread, but giving you the risk that will make you better appreciate the rewards of not being victimized is the kind of meaningful interactions Ryan has said he want to see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These kinds of games are based on a risk vs. reward model. Living in in high sec you have lots of iron to mine and are surrounded by tons of other iron miners and an incredible amount of police. Then you can go out into low sec, where there are other more valuable but still pretty common minerals. Even some silver. But it's absolutely packed with low level thugs, has much less security, and really the ore isn't that valuable. From there you can go to 0.0 where the land is filled with silver and traces of gold. Massive empires claim huge sections if this land and shut out all those who have not sworn fealty to them. If you do swear fealty to them you are surrounded by allies and will have safe places to hide or quickly take refuge while you pull out your bigger guns when the rare gang of thugs comes through. The main downside (or upside for a lot of people) is being pressed into the ranks of the massive armies your empire uses to hold control of and expand the territory they let you use to make your fortune. Finally you can move to wormhole space. There are massive logistical challenges to living out there and far less warning before you are attacked. It's utter anarchy. However the volatile and unpredictable nature of wormhole space makes it one of the least populated areas and it ranges from being a gold mine to a platinum mine for the generally smaller / highly organized groups that inhabit it.
People interested in advancing the Open World PvP titles teach incoming players about this risk vs. reward spectrum. They help them overcome their fears by showing the rewards they are missing out on, and teaching them to overcome and even embrace the risks. So this would be things like inviting them out to your null sec space and letting them mine there while teaching them how to watch local and inviting them along on raids and fleet actions if they're interested. That's how you help people get over their fear of gear loss and teach them to be alert. Not only does it lead to the highest player retention, but you can use this to strengthen your own organization.
Griefers use any mechanic they can to bully the easiest possible players they can find. They seek out the players getting the lowest levels of rewards and give them as much risk as they can. They don't do it for profit, they don't do it because they thrill in the competition of PvP, they sure as hell don't do it because they want to build the community or help the players they are abusing, they do it because their mommy didn't hug them enough and their daddy never told them he loved them. They hide behind statements like "If they can't handle it they need to go back to WoW!" or "I'm just trying to teach them about the dangers of this game!" but the fact is they are as scared of null sec and wormhole as the newbs they are are abusing and they accomplish nothing but driving players from the game. That's why they are in high sec bullying them instead of out in those places with the real PvPers who generally view their kind as somewhere a bit below maggots. They deserve nothing less than complete and utter extermination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No Ryan has not made this clearI was referring to Ryan's crystal clear statements that you wouldn't get unintentionally or unknowingly flagged in PFO.
I remain convinced that the "trick" only works if the victim is unaware that he's getting flagged, and that in fact you are relying on that lack of knowledge in order for the "trick" to work.
I agree that players who turn off that notification bear a lot of the responsibility for the consequences. However, my intuition tells me that most of the players who turned off that notification probably did so because the UI made it cumbersome to have that notification enabled.
I'm not worried about players getting tricked. Getting tricked is part of the learning process, and it will lead to smarter players.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".
Oh and no one here is on some high horse, because there was no crying about baiting bandits into a trap, was there?
I fully expect to fall into a few traps along the way. Hopefully each one will teach me enough that I don't fall for it again.
PFO is all about competition. It is about taking from the other guy. Only a small fraction of the players will play in a truly altruistic way, less than 1% would be my guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh and no one here is on some high horse, because there was no crying about baiting bandits into a trap, was there?
It's not a mirror of two equal parts. I'll avoid spelling out the obvious real-world corollaries.
PFO is all about competition.
PFO is all about exploration, development, adventure and domination.
It may be all about "taking from the other guy" for you, and that's great. I hope you enjoy the game and I hope it has systems that support that kind of play style. I just hope that's not "all" it supports.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If nullsec and wormhole miners used jetcans, would anyone dare steal from them, or bother to salt them so as to flag the hauler as a thief?
Sure. Piracy happens in null sec. Usually in the form of raids by other alliances. But nobody does null sec piracy half-assed because the defenders won't be half-assed.
High sec pirates are the ones who couldn't cut it in null-sec or never had the guts to try living there in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You aptly describe most 0.0 sovereignty held space as safer than most high sec, and certainly a lot safer than low sec space.
Your belief that High Sec meant safe is as far from accurate as you could be. Between suicide gank squads, scammers, and very frequent war decs there was tons of risk for those corporations that thrived on risky behaviors.
Join an Indy Corp that lives a few jumps away from low sec mining belts, that strip mines those belts often enough to get noticed. Then come back to me and say high sec is safe, after almost constant war decs for six month spurts of time.
Try your hand at high sec level 4 mission ninja looting / salvaging and tell me how safe that is.
Venture out into Amamake .4, the first system leaving Minmatar space, also location for entry level Faction War missions, and compare that to 0.0 Null Sec anywhere!!!
Sovereignty Null Sec, if your in an alliance is a joke outside of all out alliance warfare. Wormhole space, you can live there and never see anyone, for months or even years.
High Sec on the border of low sec, that is where the action was, and may still be.