Goblin Squad Member
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I do think Bludd and Xeen have a fair point...
I strongly recommend you go back and re-read the first couple of pages after Realmwalker's first post in this thread.
You'll see some people doing fantastic jobs of engaging him and pointing him towards relevant information. Some guy named AvenaOats really stands out, as do Gedichtewicht, DeciusBrutus, Tuoweit, Darcnes, Nightdrifter, Jazzlvraz, and a host of others
Sure, there's a valid question of "what should be the response?" Fortunately, we already have the answer:
@All - lets not use the term carebear.
@All - lets not tell people to leave, encourage them to do so, or thank them for leaving.
PvP rises strong emotions because its the original sin of Ultima Online, and no MMO has really spent the time and effort to figure out a good resolution. I think we have the history and the experience to be the game that does so. But it's a legit issue to say "why should I trust you". A lot of hearts have been broken.
So, tread lightly, and do no more harm to the cause.
Now, continue reading through the first couple of pages after that post from Realmwalker and really pay attention to the tone of different people's posts, in particular my tone towards Bluddwolf, and Bluddwolf's tone towards anyone who suggests that PFO might actually be a good fit for Realmwalker after all.
The only one I'm really going to highlight is Xeen's:
People will be killed in the wilderness, and have no reason why... There may be a reason, it may be: "Can I do it?" Guess what, thats reason enough; so get over it.
It's factually incorrect. It's abusive. And anyone who thinks that's the right way to respond is an a$@!%&&.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Community will be its own best defense. If we develop standards of behavior generally intolerant of a&~%%#*rly, the number of such will be constrained.
If that means anything at all, it means need to be intolerant of this kind of a&@$+&!ry.
I understand the desire to make peace. But it will be detrimental in the long run if that peace means Xeen and others like him think this kind of response is remotely acceptable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do think Bludd and Xeen have a fair point...I strongly recommend you go back and re-read the first couple of pages after Realmwalker's first post in this thread.
Yes, AvenaOats
I too strongly suggest that you read over my first comments to Realmwalker. Perhaps, the only abuse is that Nihimon disagrees that you should believe I made a fair point?
@ Realmwalker,
Give the game a try during the first few weeks of Open Enrollment. I recommend you wait until then because, not all of the PVP mechanics (ie settlement warfare) may be in place until late Early Enrollment.
A note on my earlier posts. I was addressing your concerns that unwanted PVP, and particularly griefing, might be the same as your other past experiences in MMOs before.
Goblin Works is focused on reducing the instances of griefing and they are planning on making those kinds of activities incur heavy penalties.
As for the level of PVP, the frequency, locations and circumstances of it occurring, there is much discussion on these forums on the topic. The two main Dev Blogs or additional comments to look out for are: PVP Flag Revamp and the possibility of an FFA PVP Zone.
Welcome to a second look, and I look forward to reading your opinions on the issues that interest you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, you guys did go a little overboard in terms of "there is such a small space this game is for you that effectively it's not for you", am I right?
BUT, I think that does not change your intention, "evidence is stacked against you liking this from what we can read and our own long experiences," which is fair play, but I think wording it, needs to be more diplomatically expressed aka: Always leave the door ajar at the very least.
As can be seen: "I'll give it a try" are the same magical words as "open sesame" ;) Unbidden thought: "what have we done..." x-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, you guys did go a little overboard in terms of "there is such a small space this game is for you that effectively it's not for you", am I right?
BUT, I think that does not change your intention, "evidence is stacked against you liking this from what we can read and our own long experiences," which is fair play, but I think wording it, needs to be more diplomatically expressed
I can't speak for Xeen, his views are his own. For my part, I may have closed that door quickly. When I read terms like "deal breaker" I take them at their word and wish them a happy look elsewhere. That is my military training, "cut your losses, suck it up, and move on".
I encourage Realmwalker to give the game a chance, as I did in my previous post.
Maybe we need to make that list of @ Alls a bit longer.
@ all no more you are a care bear
@ all no more see your way to the door
@ all no more deal breakers or rage quits
@ all no more this part of the game will suck
@ all no more PvE only servers
@ all no more I want only consensual pvp
@ all no more....... Etc, etc
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Goblin Squad Member
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*Gah, lost post* It's accurate, at the moment the forums are tolerable enough, but it has been mentioned in the past a few times, that a faq/read this would be a useful sticky for such questions; perhaps if numbers rise.
But it's great to see someone like Realm' with an open mind: Wait and see, find out more, ask a few questions. Maybe try it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you haven't done so already, Tork Shaw, popped into the Chaotic Evil alignment thread and posted some pretty monumental information about settlement alignment, and its implications for settlement warfare.
TLDR version: Settlements will likely not be limited to allowing just 1 step away alignments, but instead, they may select from all 9 which they will allow or not.
This will have major ramifications for settlement concepts and for supporting a larger segment of the server population, which may have had no access to any settlement that supported their particular alignment.
The aggregate of the citizens' alignment is still factored in, but there may be more diversity allowed if this new system is put in place.
I got the impression that there is a real strong lean towards the 1 step limitation being gone, it was not working or projected to work in their discussions.
Just imagine if there was no settlement that was established to support CG, for the first 15 months of th game. You might not see high level Rangers for 3 years or so!
There was enough information in that thread to b called a Dev Blog, you should all read it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you haven't done so already, Tork Shaw, popped into the Chaotic Evil alignment thread and posted some pretty monumental information about settlement alignment, and its implications for settlement warfare.
TLDR version: Settlements will likely not be limited to allowing just 1 step away alignments, but instead, they may select from all 9 which they will allow or not.
This will have major ramifications for settlement concepts and for supporting a larger segment of the server population, which may have had no access to any settlement that supported their particular alignment.
The aggregate of the citizens' alignment is still factored in, but there may be more diversity allowed if this new system is put in place.
I got the impression that there is a real strong lean towards the 1 step limitation being gone, it was not working or projected to work in their discussions.
Just imagine if there was no settlement that was established to support CG, for the first 15 months of th game. You might not see high level Rangers for 3 years or so!
There was enough information in that thread to b called a Dev Blog, you should all read it.
You're jumping to conclusions (again) :) There was an AWFUL lot of hedging and maybes in what Tork wrote. Sounded like we might get a more clear picture in a few weeks though.
And undoubtedly it will take some time to see high-level Rangers in the game, particularly since they won't be in at EE... but they seem like such a useful class for scouting and such that I imagine that you'll see settlements supporting them shortly after they are introduced.
What do Rangers have to do with CG, by the way? I thought they could be any Good alignment (but then my knowledge is mostly based on old editions of D&D, not Pathfinder).
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you haven't done so already, Tork Shaw, popped into the Chaotic Evil alignment thread and posted some pretty monumental information about settlement alignment, and its implications for settlement warfare.
TLDR version: Settlements will likely not be limited to allowing just 1 step away alignments, but instead, they may select from all 9 which they will allow or not.
You're jumping to conclusions (again) :) There was an AWFUL lot of hedging and maybes in what Tork wrote.
"Likely" and "May" are two words used to not make a definitive statement, but to preserve the possibility that it it could happen.
I directed people to read, not what to think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do Rangers have to do with CG, by the way? I thought they could be any Good alignment (but then my knowledge is mostly based on old editions of D&D, not Pathfinder).
In Pathfinder, I think *any* alignment can be a Ranger. Likewise, *any* alignment can be a Rogue. I think there are a lot preconceptions based on old rule sets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do Rangers have to do with CG, by the way? I thought they could be any Good alignment (but then my knowledge is mostly based on old editions of D&D, not Pathfinder).In Pathfinder, I think *any* alignment can be a Ranger. Likewise, *any* alignment can be a Rogue. I think there are a lot preconceptions based on old rule sets.
This is quite right, I recall Rangers requiring to be CG. Rogues in PFO, at least to use the Outlaw Flag, are presently required to be Chaotic + G,N, or Evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know you believe I can't be reasoned with...This is correct.
You are the same way. I have tried to let it go several times but you just keep at it.
Did you bother to look at the quote you made of me above? It was a response to an RPK argument.
Whatever, keep at your nonsense.
There is nothing abusive about PVPing just for the sake of PVPing.
Its abusive when you camp bodies, missions, starter towns, etc. Generally ruining peoples games just for the sake of ruining peoples games is abusive.
Try not to take things out of context and you may awaken from that slumber.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen, you're losing your "sheen" ;)
C'mon, eeeeeveryone's good, we have a positive result from all this trenches discussion, a non-soap-drama "sounds fun, may give it a whirl!" response. C'est Fin. The settlement stuff Bludd linked is v impactful: I'm glad to see they think they can square that CE progression square.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Comes into the thread tries to follow what is said on it. Raises hand...
I just want to add one thing to this thread from a crafter non pvper POV..
Yes I have been in pvp worlds. Pvp makes me NERVOUS! I have played in open Pvp worlds, Dark and Light,and Age of Conan. I had followed Darkfall but the pvp on the forums was so thick I walk away from it. Darkfall forums are a shining example of how a forum community should NOT act.
In most pvp fights I have been in I say 1,000+ pvp fight I have died in less then a dozen I have come out the winner. I look upon dieing in a pvp world as the cost of doing business. I pick myself up dust myself off and go on my way.
What I dislike about pvp is the fact a lot of pvpers I meet seem to need to shine their ego by pointing out how badly I fought. Yes I stink Fyi- the npc mob kill me on a regular bases you do not need to rub the fact in about how great you are.
I hope this community will be able to respect each other to agree to disagree. I hope we will be able to crowd forge a game where All can come and find something they will love to do.
Smiles at the resident Bandits and hands over a reasonable Sad. "I am a crafter not a fighter. Just remember to not kill the golden goose I am worth a lot more to you alive. Your 'toll' is just the cost of doing biz no hard feeling toward you and yours at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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a shining example of how a forum community should NOT act.
I've followed almost 20 games on their forums, most before publication, and I find these boards to be a shining example of how a forum community SHOULD act. I hope you'll be interested in sticking around to help us crowd-forge our game.
Oh, and know that most threads are FAR more reasonable in length than this one :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Comes into the thread tries to follow what is said on it. Raises hand...
I just want to add one thing to this thread from a crafter non pvper POV..
Yes I have been in pvp worlds. Pvp makes me NERVOUS! I have played in open Pvp worlds, Dark and Light,and Age of Conan. I had followed Darkfall but the pvp on the forums was so thick I walk away from it. Darkfall forums are a shining example of how a forum community should NOT act.In most pvp fights I have been in I say 1,000+ pvp fight I have died in less then a dozen I have come out the winner. I look upon dieing in a pvp world as the cost of doing business. I pick myself up dust myself off and go on my way.
What I dislike about pvp is the fact a lot of pvpers I meet seem to need to shine their ego by pointing out how badly I fought. Yes I stink Fyi- the npc mob kill me on a regular bases you do not need to rub the fact in about how great you are.
I hope this community will be able to respect each other to agree to disagree. I hope we will be able to crowd forge a game where All can come and find something they will love to do.
Smiles at the resident Bandits and hands over a reasonable Sad. "I am a crafter not a fighter. Just remember to not kill the golden goose I am worth a lot more to you alive. Your 'toll' is just the cost of doing biz no hard feeling toward you and yours at all.
Good post of concerns. As a pvper from games such as Eve, those large 1000+ fights, expect to die and be prepared for it. I can say, I die all the time, but do as you did get up and dust off.
Lol, I agree with the shine ego comment. They should be trying to teach you how instead of trying to make themselves look good. If the people around you are taught then you will do well as a group. I never understood that one myself.
As a member of the bandit crew, I can say that we will SAD you and not just kill you... Stay away from the FFA area though, in those areas it will probably be attack first and see what they have later.
If you want to harvest in those area though, let us know, we will guard you. For a fee of course lol.
Welcome to the forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen, you're losing your "sheen" ;)
C'mon, eeeeeveryone's good, we have a positive result from all this trenches discussion, a non-soap-drama "sounds fun, may give it a whirl!" response. C'est Fin. The settlement stuff Bludd linked is v impactful: I'm glad to see they think they can square that CE progression square.
Hey, I have to defend myself lol. We do have a good positive, and another question to go with it... Ill save that for that thread though.
I agree though, enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Comes into the thread tries to follow what is said on it. Raises hand...
I just want to add one thing to this thread from a crafter non pvper POV..
Yes I have been in pvp worlds. Pvp makes me NERVOUS! I have played in open Pvp worlds, Dark and Light,and Age of Conan. I had followed Darkfall but the pvp on the forums was so thick I walk away from it. Darkfall forums are a shining example of how a forum community should NOT act.In most pvp fights I have been in I say 1,000+ pvp fight I have died in less then a dozen I have come out the winner. I look upon dieing in a pvp world as the cost of doing business. I pick myself up dust myself off and go on my way.
What I dislike about pvp is the fact a lot of pvpers I meet seem to need to shine their ego by pointing out how badly I fought. Yes I stink Fyi- the npc mob kill me on a regular bases you do not need to rub the fact in about how great you are.
I hope this community will be able to respect each other to agree to disagree. I hope we will be able to crowd forge a game where All can come and find something they will love to do.
Smiles at the resident Bandits and hands over a reasonable Sad. "I am a crafter not a fighter. Just remember to not kill the golden goose I am worth a lot more to you alive. Your 'toll' is just the cost of doing biz no hard feeling toward you and yours at all.
I have a few comments about your attitude, and your possible beliefs. I speak for myself, and I believe for my company of Bandits (I think we are actually the only ones, or maybe the only ones that admit it).
1. Refreshing!
2. If you fly your Traveler Flag and we choose to take you and your caravan by force, we would never degrade you for losing in combat.
3. Flying the Traveler Flag or other PVP flag, does not mean we will attack always. Don't feel that because you chose to mark yourself for PVP, you will only get PVP.
4. If you are unflagged and refuse our SAD, we will still not dishonor you, as long as you accept the consequences for losing with grace.
5. If you frequently reject a reasonable SAD offer, and frequently travel unflagged (when you could), and then you place bounties, assassins or Death Curses on us, then it will not go so well for you.
We in the UnNamed Company have a somewhat business view of banditry. We recognize that if we over fish a pond, there will be no fish left in the pond. We pass up the minnows and go for the bigger fish.
Caravanas and harvesting sites will be our bread and butter! Settlement raids will be our banner events.
Small time merchants, with one mule and a few pouches of copper ore... Meh, we could get more from doing an escalation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Diella, I just wanted to say that some of us recognize your name and know that you're not a new poster.
Was this relevant to the discussion in that it would affect the weight behind the words, or just a note to recognize that this person isn't coming out of the blue and has indeed been along for the ride for a while?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Diella, I just wanted to say that some of us recognize your name and know that you're not a new poster.Was this relevant to the discussion in that it would affect the weight behind the words, or just a note to recognize that this person isn't coming out of the blue and has indeed been along for the ride for a while?
It was just my attempt to be charming :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome to the forums.
I don't hold grudges, and I generally don't like to call someone out unless I really think they're doing something uncool. Xeen wasn't the only one who made it sound like Diella was new, although he did do so more explicitly.
My statement was intended to recognize and acknowledge Diella, and hopefully make her feel appreciated. There was no ulterior motive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at you guys go!
I'm proud of you all cutting right through all the irrelevant stuff right to the heart of the issue. That is what makes the PFO community do great. I can't wait to see the meeting minutes of the first player council.
Sometimes, it's hard to tell if someone's being sarcastic. Other times, it's just ugly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Jazzlvraz: Yes I do agree of the forums I have visited this one rank in the top 5 of how a community SHOULD act. As to sticking around although my name does not say it I am a goblin squad member along with my son. The kickstarter was a birthday gift to him and it actually got funded on his birthday. It was a real pleasure to both of us when Ryan and Lisa both wished him happy birthday in the chat that we all were watching in baited breath to see if our game got funded.
@ Xeen Some of my lack in pvp is teaching some of it is as a person over 60 my reflexes are no match for someone in their 20’s. I do my best and I'm happy with what I can do not get depressed over what I cannot. As long as I am having fun doing what I enjoy doing I am happy. If we all like the same thing think of the Haggis shortage there would be.
FFA I understand it shoot first and collect later. I'm not sure if I will ever venture into those areas but if I do I will defiantly be taking hired guard to watch my back. Heck back in the day when I played Horizon I actually hired a player to help protect my dragon as she gather gems for her hoard from npc mobs. That was back in the day when dragon hoard depreciated over time if you were not gathering stuff for it almost hourly.
@ Bluddwolf
1. Thanks.
2.3. Flying the traveler flag have to see how they decide to run with this. A lot also depends on what company I join I do plan on joining one. I think that will be decided during early enrollment. It is a joint decision with my son Joey so we will likely decide in early enrollment. I am very interested in seeing how flag work and if it be something I would try. More info is needed to decide if this is something I wish to do.
4. I very much a coward so solo or if I am traveling with hired body guards I must likely take your SAD offer. If I am not with hired body guards and with a group that depend on what the leader of the group decides.
5. Frequently reject a reasonable SAD offer, and frequently travel unflagged (when you could), and then you place bounties, assassins or Death Curses on us, then it will not go so well for you. This is something I would not do. I firmly believe that ooc you have just as much right to play the way you wish to as I have the right to play the way I do. The dance is when your play style and mine interact and I have strong belief that Ryan and company will do everything to make this meeting an interesting one that we both will walk away satisfied with.
@ Nihimon Thanks for the recognition. I do believe that we have something in common. If I remember correctly we both played Rift and both belonged to the family Gaischioch. This is my return attempt to be charming :D.
@Xeen I tend to be quiet and not make many post the one I do make are not really something any one would remember. So many forum folk say what I want to say better then me so I just smile and nod my head in agreement. It seems silly to post just to say I agree and when I do post that it not a post any one would remember.
@ all I have been thinking about what pvp means to me and well I finally found I did have something to say and so said it. You have made my day that you all thought what I had to say was interesting enough to reply to. Thanks again, this community has all the ear marks of being one of the best.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon Thanks for the recognition. I do believe that we have something in common. If I remember correctly we both played Rift and both belonged to the family Gaischioch. This is my return attempt to be charming :D.
That makes three of us, I still get the occasional newsletter from them. I have not played Rift since maybe 6 months after its release.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do believe that we have something in common. If I remember correctly we both played Rift and both belonged to the family Gaischioch.
Wow! I did not know that :) I played Khimber, there, and not terribly long, but it definitely made an impression.
PS - Consider me charmed :)
That makes three of us, I still get the occasional newsletter from them.
Mind = Blown, lol
Yeah, I still get the newsletters, and keep wondering if/when they'll have a blurb about PFO...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rift: I still have an account with Rift until October but stop playing a couple of months ago. It was no longer fun after your 3 max character. End game no one seem to be doing the stuff I was geared for and the group that were always seemed to be meeting on days that I work. For the new raids I did not have the gear for, did not want to grind the raids to get more gear to go do harder raid to get the grind did not seem worth it.
Gaischioch: I play Pathfinder on Obsidian Portal with a couple of family on Tuesdays. Other then that I just read forums to see where they are heading next, sadly it does not seem to be here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet another nice Avatar upgrade! I very much approve, Diella :)
Gaischioch: I play Pathfinder on Obsidian Portal with a couple of family on Tuesdays. Other then that I just read forums to see where they are heading next, sadly it does not seem to be here.
I have a strong feeling that will change if PFO proves itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you. I was looking for an avatar that not over used. This one only has 4 other using it. It also fits my main who likely to be a gnome crafter.
It would be a second choice for them. Elder Scrolls is the apple in every one eye right now. Maybe they will but even if they do I do not think I will join them. I rather belong to a chapter company that excited about the game as I am not one that has a wait and see attitude.
Sent you a rambling pm about this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Diella, I think we will all find that the combat in PFO may be a bit slower paced. Which should help your reflexes and all LOL. Sorry, had to respond to that. I trained/fought with a guy in Eve that was 62, he learned well and became a great PVPer. If it is something you wish to learn with an alt, let me or Bludd, or any UNC guy for that matter, know and we will happily take you out on some runs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Was there any suggestion that there was going to be a player council?
We will likely have some form of player council like the EVE Online Council of Stellar Management that will be a representative body for the players to channel their suggestions and feedback through that will meet with the developers regularly and be a conduit for those ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Was there any suggestion that there was going to be a player council?We will likely have some form of player council like the EVE Online Council of Stellar Management that will be a representative body for the players to channel their suggestions and feedback through that will meet with the developers regularly and be a conduit for those ideas.
Thanks Nihimon...
That CSM in EVE has not always worked out so well, and it has been dominated by Goonswarm on several occasions. It has become a council of the larger alliances, who all have a similar interest (0.0 space).
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Goblin Squad Member
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That CSM in EVE has not always worked out so well, and it has been dominated by Goonswarm on several occasions. It has become a council of the larger alliances, who all have a similar interest (0.0 space).
I suppose it depends on how the members of the council are decided. If it's a straightforward vote, then yes obviously whoever can mobilize the most votes will have an advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen: One of the additions I had added to my account was Destiny’s Twin. While my plans for her are not set in stone I was thinking of making her an explorer gather. Considering the best places to gather are likely going to be the most dangerous knowing how to pvp or at least fight back with some degree of skill over my usual panic and dying will come in handy. If I learn to just hold my own in a fight I will be extremely happy. I thank you for your offer and will be taking you up on it.
GW goal of maximizing player interaction and the level of interest the community show each other here on the forums gives me hope that what we experience in game will be a distinct improvement over what is offered in theme park games.
Im not angry at all.
WoW... lol, not a PVP game.
Sure there is some competition, but the biggest difference is... Players will be crafting everything, which makes it PVP in PFO. You are required to flag for combat in WoW. PFO will not require a flag. etc etc
Nihimon, people like Realmwalker cannot handle it when they lose in combat. This is exactly what Ryan has said will not be a game for them. Trust me, I have a friend that whines and cries while playing a warzone in SWTOR... You lose nothing in a warzone... But people cannot handle losing.
This is exactly why they want to limit the numbers at launch and build up slowly from there. People in general will not be able to handle an Open World Sandbox PVP game.
It is people like you that make the whole PVP aspect of the game unappealing. You like PVP and anyone that does not can go to hell in your point of view.
I don't mind getting my ass handed to to me, it happens a lot. I have less than 15% mobility in my left hand it makes competitive PVP non workable for me. Not an excuse just a plain simple fact for me.
I have not whined at all, I have just voiced some concerns that were important to me...I wanted to give this game the benefit of the doubt and at least try but seeing posts like this from Xeen and others seem to point me in the direction of not investing money in this game.
@Bluddwolf, I have no interest in continuing to debate every little point you decide to bring up.
As long as you, Xeen, and others don't treat the next person that comes asking about PvP the same way you treated Realmwalker, I really don't give a s*#@ what you ask Ryan for.
Thank you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not whined at all, I have just voiced some concerns that were important to me...I wanted to give this game the benefit of the doubt and at least try but seeing posts like this from Xeen and others seem to point me in the direction of not investing money in this game.
This makes me a sad bunny. We should not be driving people off before the game has even started, especially not people who are articulate and can present a cogent argument. The game is only as interesting and varied as its community, and all of us lose when someone decides not to get involved because we have put them off by being over aggressive.
For what it's worth, Realmwalker, I don't believe Xeen to be representative of the vast majority of people here on the forum and I expect his play style will be just one among many, many more. Of course, this is just my opinion and therefore worth as much as you paid for it, but I'd still urge you to give PfO a try; I truly believe that it will be a game that will cater far more to the creative than the destructive among us.