First Edition (AD&D) vs. Pathfinder


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It was assassins who did not retire, but got retired. And certainly, if you wanted the post, you had to defeat the High Druid, but most of the time (after Unearthed Arcana came out), druids became hierophants and left the High Druid post for one of their 13th level assistants.

Shadow Lodge

The black books Players Option 'Spells and Magic' and 'Skills and Powers' and I believe 'Combat and Tactics' add new ways individualise your characters.


Ow... no, that is WAY WAY later, at the tail end of SECOND edition.

Shadow Lodge

I dont really remember the transition from 1 e to 2e...what changes were make?

Shadow Lodge

I remember that in 1e it took the mage as much exp to go from 11 to 12 as it did to go from 1 to 11. Lots more time spent in each level then in current editions.


The Black cover PH, DMG, and MM, could actually be taken as 2.5 edition


Terquem wrote:
The Black cover PH, DMG, and MM, could actually be taken as 2.5 edition

Did those actually have significant rules changes? Or just art and layout?


Ooooh, the 1/2 transition was the Highly Efficient and Sanitized one. Most notably, Half-orcs (because rape), assassins (because killing and stuff), and monks (because reasons, possibly religion) were suddenly gone. Demons and devils were too, now those monsters were called tanar'ri and baatezu instead (because satanism).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Terquem wrote:
The Black cover PH, DMG, and MM, could actually be taken as 2.5 edition
Did those actually have significant rules changes? Or just art and layout?

Just art and layout, there were no substantive changes between those books and the first round of 2E Core Rulebooks.

Sissyl wrote:
Ooooh, the 1/2 transition was the Highly Efficient and Sanitized one. Most notably, Half-orcs (because rape), assassins (because killing and stuff), and monks (because reasons, possibly religion) were suddenly gone. Demons and devils were too, now those monsters were called tanar'ri and baatezu instead (because satanism).

Those things were already gone in the first 2E Core Rulebook printings. Hence, there was no "1/2 transition," if you were talking about the black-border re-releases.

Dark Archive

Terquem wrote:
The Black cover PH, DMG, and MM, could actually be taken as 2.5 edition

I would disagree with that one - unless you are confusing the black covered skills and options books into the mix? The black covered core books were just text clean up and errata - the most minimal of changes if any, the additional books that came out right after - the black covered spell options, skills and powers series - that was not even 2.5, but more like a 2.9 or even an alt/proto-version of 3rd, since there were the most radical changes/addition to the rules since the game was first published (more than 1st to 2nd changes, and only beaten by the actual rules for 3.0).

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, the black-border 2E books were just layout changes. And I don't consider the Player's Options books to be 2.5 any more than I consider the APG to be Pathfinder 1.5.


Alzrius wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Terquem wrote:
The Black cover PH, DMG, and MM, could actually be taken as 2.5 edition
Did those actually have significant rules changes? Or just art and layout?

Just art and layout, there were no substantive changes between those books and the first round of 2E Core Rulebooks.

Sissyl wrote:
Ooooh, the 1/2 transition was the Highly Efficient and Sanitized one. Most notably, Half-orcs (because rape), assassins (because killing and stuff), and monks (because reasons, possibly religion) were suddenly gone. Demons and devils were too, now those monsters were called tanar'ri and baatezu instead (because satanism).
Those things were already gone in the first 2E Core Rulebook printings. Hence, there was no "1/2 transition," if you were talking about the black-border re-releases.

I think "1/2 transition" was 1E->2E transition, not the re-release.

That said, the sanitizing was a little silly, but was a response to a pretty real threat at the time. I don't know if it had any real effect. I'm not sure monks had anything to do with religion. I assumed it was the general feel that they never really fit, being very much an Eastern influenced class in a Western setting. Assassins fell in the general trend away from "evil", which wasn't really a bad thing. I'd actually forgotten Half-Orcs were out in 2E.
Not naming demons and devils was silly.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
And I don't consider the Player's Options books to be 2.5 any more than I consider the APG to be Pathfinder 1.5.

Hear hear! I find that the "2.5" moniker is highly inaccurate, whether applied to the black-bordered Core reprints, or the DM's/Player's Option series, which were optional splatbooks.

thejeff wrote:
I think "1/2 transition" was 1E->2E transition, not the re-release.

Ah, that'd make more sense.

thejeff wrote:
Not naming demons and devils was silly.

Yeah, it was. To be fair, late in the life of the edition, they brought those terms back (in casual use).


Alzrius wrote:


thejeff wrote:
Not naming demons and devils was silly.
Yeah, it was. To be fair, late in the life of the edition, they brought those terms back (in casual use).

In every group I played with, they never left casual use :)


The bigchanges were not in the rules, but the policies of TSR at the time. The infamous policy on depicting evil is probably one of the biggest ones. She who must not be named destroyed much,and guess what, the fanatic minority never liked D&D better for it. The fact that someone ever thought they would is astonishing.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

I started playing 1e when I was 8 with some older kids. I remember being aghast when they told me how in Basic D&D, elves and dwarves were classes (already nerdraging). My next instant of young nerdrage was the removal of half-orcs from AD&D when 2nd edition came out. My longest running 1e character was a half-orc fighter (already min-maxing to get that strength bonus).

A later 1e book, but one of my favorites, was the Dragonlance Adventures book. That book really wove the characters from the novels into the campaign setting in a way that I don't see done much anymore. While there's a lot of great 3pp Pathfinder campaign settings, many of them aren't supported with novels that interweve together. It's neither good or bad, but the way it was done back then made for a campaign type book that was a good read. Though one thing I never understood about the Dragonlance Adventures book-

Raistlin

Spoiler:
His stats always confused me as a kid- In the Legends trilogy, he is powerful to kill a god, but in his official stats, he has a 17 Intelligence, which, if I recall correctly, doesn't even qualify him for 9th and maybe even 8th level spells (which would probably be useful to kill a god). Of course, Takhisis's stats said she had 5 attacks for 1-1000 points of damage and Raistlin only had 44 hit points, so I guess going off their stats isn't a good idea


17 Int could cast 8th level spells in 1st edition.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

John, about Raistlin...

Spoiler:
...his plan to kill Takhisis was to, after defeating her champions in the Abyss, retreat to Krynn and let her follow him there. He knew that Takhisis in the mortal world would, as the book says, "bring down the wrath of the heavens." In other words, that the rest of the gods would never allow this, and so would provide a huge oppositional force to combat her...which he would be conveniently placed to use as he commanded.

That's why the end of the trilogy hung on Caramon not letting Raistlin leave the Abyss. Raistlin had already defeated the Dark Queen's champions, but facing her would be suicide if he couldn't do it back on Krynn.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

If anything was 1.5e it was Unearthed Arcana. Heck I still think of those as the "new" 1e rules.

PHB druids were capped at 14 forever and had to fight to earn levels 12+. So your max level druid had to constantly be on the lookout for a young upstart who might challenge you - and the challenge could be something like "wild shaped forms, fight to first blood, no spells."

In UA it was "revealed" that each continent/major region had it own 14th level druid, but there only one 15th level guy in the entire world. If your 15th level druid earned a stupidly obscene amount of XP without being deposed(really, it was something like 3 million xp), he could advance to 16th level where all the limited number in the world stuff went away. Presumably astute 14th level guys were steering Mr Grand Druid into dangerous adventures so that he would either a. advance a level quicker or b. die, freeing up the slot to a new guy.

Assassins and monks also had to fight for their top levels. Monks had to start fighting to advance at level 8(3 level 8s in the world, 1 each level above that to max of 17). There was a pregen 16 monk in a high level adventure whose backstory stated that he had earned enough xp to challenge the 17th level guy but respected him too much to steal his position.

Assassins were encouraged to have their rivals and superiors "mysteriously disappear." As long as they were gone you were all good to advance. No formal combat or even warning were necessary.

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