Goblin Squad Member
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I know a player in EVE who makes most of his money by ganking people and then when they put a bounty on him, approaches them with one of his own alts, acts all concerned and helpfully offers to go and kill himself for the bounty.
This win-win-win for him. He gets the loot for the original gank. He gets the bounty the victim put on his head AND he also gets to remove that bounty within a few hours so he doesn't have to worry about bounty hunters (not that anyone in eve really cares, a big bounty is a point of pride not a disadvantage).
Anonymous contracts would make this even easier to setup :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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PS after taking time to step back from the conversation, I see what you were saying better and it makes sense.Certainly not the assassins. That would be suicidal.First off, Glad to see another assassin come out from the shadows...Who came out?
I was referring to this is the first time I have noticed you have openly stated your intent to be an assassin in-game and I was welcoming you as a fellow assassin. Nothing more from that statement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PS after taking time to step back from the conversation, I see what you were saying better and it makes sense.Certainly not the assassins. That would be suicidal.First off, Glad to see another assassin come out from the shadows...Who came out?I was referring to this is the first time I have noticed you have openly stated your intent to be an assassin in-game and I was welcoming you as a fellow assassin. Nothing more from that statement.
You're new here, aren't you...Don't mean to sound snarky, but I've been discussing organizing assassins here on these boards for a long time. Before Tony's even, on the Gobbocast, openly so pretty much since this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2npqv?You-find-a-small-note-on-your-chair#1
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps a contract could be accepted by an individual or by a chartered company. This would allow an individual to create a chartered company (such as ‘The Cleaners’). When a contract is created then the creator could restrict the contract to a specific company or leave it open. If ‘The Cleaners’ successfully completes the contract then the reward could automatically go into their account.
Having assassins set themselves up as a company would also allow the reputation of the kill to be assigned against their name. Perhaps when a contract is made the creator could see a list of all assassin companies and their corresponding reputation and success rates. This would also allow for an assassination leaderboard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally hope that we will be able to use middlemen to receive and even issue contracts for assassinations and that the contract will be able to be passed between these messengers.
I frankly have always thought that the Tony the baker concept was the way to go. At one level are the known assassin groups. If you're new to the game you hire an assassin through those groups to deal with the guy who ganked you. There's a contract and the assassin's identity might be known to the contracting party.
At the next level, which is where I think the pros work, you know someone who knows someone, and you mention that you have a problem. There *isn't* a contract - the deed is done and you pass the specified payment to your friend for his friend to pass along. If you don't pay you'll be targeted - worse, your future requests will be ignored. You cultivate these relationships, but never want to know who the actors are.
Is that somewhat meta-gamed? Maybe. In an MMO you can never be sure if you're talking to an alt, or a guildmate, or maybe to the actor himself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There should be a risk of getting yourself identified/found out if you accept a contract just like there should be a risk of getting killed while performing the assassination. Otherwise it's not a meaningful interaction if it has no risk associated with the potential reward.
While there should be ways to reduce the risk they should never straight up be removed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why should their be risk in being identified during accepting a contract? Or did I misunderstand you?I personally don't care if people know I'm an assassin, and I hope that I'm called by name when people need a reliable assassin for a contract. I plan/hope do to have a large enough network, when someone starts talking about an assassination, and they start asking around, that I could find out and I contact them, rather them contact me. (this all being later into the game)
As assassinations can only occur by contract as far as I know. That is to say you can only assassinate someone you specifically have a contract to assassinate not all and sundry it seems a bit cheesy for assassins who's whole purpose is to be a shadowy figure to have to sign their real name to the thing.
Assassins have plenty of chance to be caught and outed while doing the assassination itself.
@Tigari yes we know everyone knows you are an assassin. There will however and I already know some who wish to play assassins but ostensibly be fighters or wizards as far as their guild mates know. This should be an equally supported playstyle is the point surely
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, that's interesting ....
An Assassin must have a contract to kill a person, correct? So then that means people running around just offing folks aren't just earning the 'attacker' flag and lots of 'Evil' points, but possibly treading on the toes of the Assassin Charter/Guilds that might be popping up.
Wouldn't that be hilarious. The Do-Gooders get together to try and deal with the stab-happy idiots amongst them, only to find the Assassin Guild/Charter they've been trying to snuff out for weeks has taken out contracts on the same morons and are hunting them into the ground?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with requiring contracts out for a target to be assassinated is when you consider war targets, that would require each side of the war to put contracts out on key targets they want "removed" instead of sending them in at key times. I am not saying that all war targets should be allowed to be assassinated just because your at war with the assassin, but at the same time maybe it should be like that. After all, if someone declares are on the UNC, why do I, a member of UNC, need a contract to assassinate those "targets of opportunity" that appear before me? It is a "grey zone" IMHO as I can see abuse stemming from this as well. Not sure the answer.
Side note, when I talk about assassinating a "war target" that you don't have a contract on, I mean they suffer the penalties of being assassinated (loss of spawn point/loss of building production/ ect.) but I wouldn't get paid as normal with a contract. It is as if I would be doing a free contract. I would still have to wear the mask, ensure I am flying the flag and everything else like a normal contract, I just don't get paid cause there isn't a contract.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, since I talked about war targets, what about an assassin killing ANYONE with a PVP flag without a contract on them? Will they just die as if killed by any other means, or do they suffer being assassinated but again, with no pay as there was no contract? I know it won't raise the attacker flag, which means I won't reset my flag buff, but the question is, do they suffer from being assassinated and the "debuffs" from that?
My understanding is an assassin killing someone with a pvp flag but no contract is just counted as a normal pvp killing. To get all the extra bells and whistles that go with sucessful assassination such as thread severage then it has to be via contract.
Thinking about it all pvp kills from an assassin being treated as assassination would be slightly over powered (this is against flagged targets) even in war time. So my vote is even in war assassins have contracts raised for targets.
The other reason to still require contracts for assassination in wartime is that it requires your side to actually work out who needs targetting. There is no reason that the key players to be assassinated are going to be immediately obvious.
Example our leader is Krows....is he however tied to any of the buildings or DI's you wish to effect? Maybe he is or maybe he isnt. Perhaps you will need to send a spy into the settlement to work out which are the characters that need targetting
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Goblin Squad Member
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ok, good points. Question for clarification though, when you refer to "...such as thread severage" are you referring to threading of gear (which is a death curse, not from being assassinated) or threading to a bind point (in which case your right that is from being assassinated)??
the bind point one
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a target dies while suffering the Being Observed debuff and the system would have added a masked assassin to his Killers list (if he wasn't an assassin), the target counts as being assassinated.
If assassination consequences applied to everyone killed by assassins and not just contracted targets, following the mechanics described above I would predict that in every war you'd have assassins on both sides spamming 'observe' in combination with aoe damage to tag every enemy for assassination.
That just doesn't seem right to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I've been discussing organizing assassins here on these boards for a long time... pretty much since this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2npqv?You-find-a-small-note-on-your-chair#1
Ah, that brings back some memories :) I actually still remember seeing that thread title show up for the first time.
Of course, some of us had some inklings before then...
By the way they describe it in the blogs, I'm guessing group play is going to be a lot more important for some goals, like escorting traders and gatherers, and less important for other goals, like assassinating a target, or stealthily collecting a bounty.
What about humanoid slaves, you know, for the villainous characters?
Evil is not a problem - it's a solution. >:D
That last one's my favorite :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think middlemen are the best solution. You allow a well known reputable assassin representative to pass on the contracts they are given to the assassins working with them.
That allows the person submitting the contract to know they are working with someone who has a good business reputation, and protects the identity of the assassins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying "Tony" to Assassinate someone, I want "Tony" to be holding the knife as it goes into my target's back.
But that may just be me...
Yeah. Pretty difficult to allow an assassin anonymity without an "alias" system. For simplicity, the contract system is likely going to be between two entities and non transferable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying "Tony" to Assassinate someone, I want "Tony" to be holding the knife as it goes into my target's back.
But that may just be me...
It would be easy to make that distinguishable by the person setting the contract so that good folk such as yourself can limit themselves to second rate assassins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying "Tony" to Assassinate someone, I want "Tony" to be holding the knife as it goes into my target's back.
But that may just be me...
If it's run through a guild system though, then it could bring in an element of competition. The person issuing the contract could specify who gets it, or they could specify that only 5, or 10, or 20 copies of the contract go out and whoever pulls it off first gets the money.
So would you rather "Tony" get the contract? or would you rather "Tony" stage an Amazing Race of assassins after your target?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... or would you rather "Tony" stage an Amazing Race of assassins after your target?
That's a good question. My biggest concern is making sure I'm not indirectly lining the pockets of the guy that I put the hit on. But you're right, I probably don't really need to know who held the knife.
This is another aspect of Ryan's design that I'm seeing more brilliance in as time goes by. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Assassinations, but it's nice to know that an Assassination will carry some extra penalties besides just dying, so even if my mark manages to prepare for it, it's still going to hurt.
Kinda of hard to have annonymity when you have 5 different flags and every NPC just knows you're a bad, bad man.
"You ever see that guy before random NPC 1?"
"No random NPC 2, but he sure is heinous."
Yeah, it looks like Reputation is going to be a simple score that's generally visible and globally applicable to everyone you meet. I had really hoped there would be complex weighting based on the opinions of my trusted friends. (I understand that would be complex - possibly unmanageably so)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
If we see a reputation system that's global in EE, and it has turned into something more akin to a social network of reputation by OE or even release.. I would be more than pleased with that.
Honestly, as open as this game is supposed to be I will be content with EE consisting of very simple animations and low poly models with low particle count effects. They have so much work ahead of them, if they want to replace tree_texture_01.png with high_res_tree_texture_01.png a year from the start of EE, I can deal with that. If combat is going to be FRYK2W (face roll your keyboard to win) like WoW to start with, but evolves into something deeper as time goes by.. I will gladly playtest the crap out of it and do my best to help turn it into something we can (most of us) be proud of and happy with.
Anyways, yeah.. I do not feel bad about lining the pockets of some jerk who is about to take it in the back. Assassination hurts.
I have an inkling that we will see assassins offering a sort of public service at some point. That guy just killed you while harvesting? Sure I can take him out for 1 copper, sounds like fun. Now, when it comes to assassinations that require great personal expense to the point of disguises and corpse destruction failsafes, etc.. that is the kind of wetwork that will cost a pretty penny. It is going to be even more interesting the first time a settlement falls for having a hand in the assassination of a rival settlement's leader. That right there is the kind of thing that gets me excited about PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An easy 'fix' for the Assassination Contract is that a character must have a certain 'level' and/or 'badge' to accept a contract on behalf of an 'Allied' Character.
As an example of the abovise situation, it could lead to the 'Crimson Robes', a Company in and of themselves that acts as the middle-men for every Assassin/Company and Lone Wolf Assassin in the lands. They could very well exist solely as middle-men for the Assassination contracts, allowing the Assassins' identities to remain veiled in exchange for a cut of the Contract's fee and the relative protection of the Assassins.
They might even, through their own crafting skills and dealings, possess tracts of lands or entire buildings/districts that their 'Patrons', Assassins and Contractors alike, could use for meetings, storage (of gear and/or bodies) and places to recuperate.
An evil organisation, but the moment anyone assaults their members, you're up to your eyeballs in angry Assassins. Think of them like the 'Handlers' from the Claymore Anime/Manga. Politically connected and relatively untouchable due to their affiliation with the Assassins, but ordinary men and women whose only real power IS their connection to the Assassins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK .. the way I see it you will need three ALTs to make this work well solo
The scam will work like this:
1. ALT #1 ... finds a mark with really good gear and raises an assassination contract with ALT #2 to kill the mark. ALT #3 acts as the middle man.
2. ALT #2 kills the mark (under contract with ALT #1)and loots his stuff
now the tricky bit ...
3. ALT #1 approaches the mark and acts concerned and says he overheard someone talking about an assassination and gives details of the murder. he then offers to kill the "culprit". The mark takes out an assassination contract on ALT #2 with ALT #1 using ALT #3 as a middleman (who gets a cut).
4. ALT #1 kills ALT #2 and collects the marks bounty.
This way you get to kill the guy, get his stuff and then also rip him off for a bounty for his "revenge" contract.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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OK .. the way I see it you will need three ALTs to make this work well solo
The scam will work like this:
1. ALT #1 ... finds a mark with really good gear and raises an assassination contract with ALT #2 to kill the mark. ALT #3 acts as the middle man.
2. ALT #2 kills the mark (under contract with ALT #1)and loots his stuff
now the tricky bit ...
3. ALT #1 approaches the mark and acts concerned and says he overheard someone talking about an assassination and gives details of the murder. he then offers to kill the "culprit". The mark takes out an assassination contract on ALT #2 with ALT #1 using ALT #3 as a middleman (who gets a cut).
4. ALT #1 kills ALT #2 and collects the marks bounty.
This way you get to kill the guy, get his stuff and then also rip him off for a bounty for his "revenge" contract.
The smart target would simply thank you for your information, and then hire a third party for the revenge hit. Or not pay for revenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My advice to everyone: Join a guild. If you're in a small guild, ally with a larger guild that's generally compatible. There are already more than a dozen guilds listed in the Land Rush that are large enough to create a Settlement all by themselves.
It's probably not going to be wise to depend on the kindness of strangers in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why should their be risk in being identified during accepting a contract? Or did I misunderstand you?I personally don't care if people know I'm an assassin, and I hope that I'm called by name when people need a reliable assassin for a contract. I plan/hope do to have a large enough network, when someone starts talking about an assassination, and they start asking around, that I could find out and I contact them, rather them contact me. (this all being later into the game)
I agree with this point of view. PFO is a game built around killing people. The only time you should want to be in the shadows is when the shadows will help you kill easier.
If you're an Assassin, or a Bandit or other "unsavory" type, own it! Fly that Assassin or Outlaw flag with arrogance and pride.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO is a game built around killing people.As a peaceful crafter of healthy herbal cordials, I object to this assumption.
I object as well.
PFO is a game build around "Exploration, Development, Adventure and Domination". The "killing people" is not the meaningful part - it's the part that makes the other stuff meaningful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems like GW is okay with the idea of reselling contracts in general, I do not imagine that assassination contracts would be any different. What has me curious is...
It is an Evil act to kill someone.
Is it then also an Evil act to take a contract out on someone's life, essentially condemning that person to death?
If this is the case, while offering the initial contract to someone would be an Evil act, would it not also be perpetuating the Evil to pass that contract on? Thus any middlemen would also be Evil, without actually having done any killing themselves, but by peddling in death.
Not that I have an issue with this, it just made me wonder if the devs had also followed this line of reasoning and what came of it.
Seems like Good aligned characters that felt the need to be rid of an adversary, we will even say an Evil adversary to keep the motive intact, would then have to deal with an Evil middleman or the Evil assassin themself in order to accomplish this. It almost seems like such a person might be more inclined to hand gold to a neutral someone and say 'take care of it'. Who would then ultimately end up providing the middleman with gold and a target. The middleman would issue the contract, being the only one to take the cloud.. aside from the assassin of course.
Definitely be interesting to see how these things pan out based on what options players have available.
PFO is a game built around killing people.
I could not agree less. Killing people, or rather the threat of being killed, adds depth and meaning to all of the other far more important aspects of the game. Without fear of consequences, actions tend to lose meaning.
Killing is not even the driving motivation here, that would be loss. If you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to fear from death, rendering another's power over you insignificant. It will not even be the fear of what you can lose from dying that will ultimately drive the game though, that honor belongs to the fear of losing everything you built.
What is losing a single item compared to the destruction of your entire settlement? What is losing your entire inventory to the loss of a trade conglomerate you built up from scratch? And what is any of that compared to the first time an entire kingdom falls?
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO is a game built around killing people.
There are many different ways to kill someone though.
I see PFO as being a typical 4X game. Explore, Expand, Exploit and Exterminate. You can be an expert in any one or several if you're patient. Not everyone will want to travel the exterminate route though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My own 2 copper here...
On anonymity; I personally feel that only the assassin should know that he's an assassin.
There need to be options for meeting with people (be they middlemen or employers) such that they can talk to each other without seeing each other, or knowing any names.
So say you're an assassin, and you hear that someone's looking to hire "The Collector" for a job. You put on your mask and collection hat, and you head to a safe place to meet. Some business or whatnot where the owner is known for ensuring his guests privacy. You take a place in a room (nicely decorated of course, comfortable furniture, perhaps a plate of snacks) with a hole in the wall, maybe with a grate, or some sort of cloth covering like a confessional. The person doing the hiring explains what he needs, his name never appears in the chat window (or however it would appear in game) and the most he knows is your Alias/Title, "The Collector". He leaves through one door, you leave through another, neither party ever sees the other. Once you complete your contract, word is sent to your new friend, he sends a bag of gold and a thank you note to a specific business friend you may have, and it finds its way into your purse.
Of course you could substitute a middleman in there somewhere as well. Maybe he meets on your behalf.
Edit: Looks like everything below this is actually pretty well handled already.
On the concept of disguises, I desperately want to be able to not walk around in my assassin persona in my spare time. Obviously Axies the Collector is already compromised, so I need an identity that doesn't invite murder on sight. Additionally, I'd love to see options for disguises that can get an Evil person into a Good settlement without guards with Omnivision able to see your alignment at all times. If I have to kill someone in a good settlement, I should (assuming I have the requisite skill(s)) be able to enter such a place without attracting undue attention.