A situation came up where there were three blinded and stunned bugbears (due to a well placed Color Spray) blocking an entrance to a room. Stunned says that they drop the items in their hands so their morningstars and shields were on the ground at their feet. They did not threaten any squares around them due to no weapons and being stunned.
Can the characters move through them normally or do they still have to make an Acrobatic attempt to tumble through the bugbear's squares (CMD was still 16 so the check would be a 21) or can they just move through their squares.
The RAW seem to point that an Acrobatic check is still required:
"You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless."
Blinded, stunned, and weaponless is not "helpless."
I also referenced the entry under Acrobatics but it is less helpful in this situation as it speaks mostly to the drawing of Attacks of Opportunity which obviously would not occur with the blinded, stunned, weaponless bugbears.
"You can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics."
I just figured for the sake of expediency and a good game that they could move through it but not stop in the square. This seemed like total DM fiat to me. Any thoughts? Anything I missed that makes what I allowed the actual rules rather than just a quick DM determination to keep the game moving?
You still have to make a Acrobatics check to move through the Bugbears' squares.
Stunned creatures lose their DEX to AC and take a -2 penalty to AC, so they would also lose their DEX to CMD and take a -2 penalty to CMD.
A stunned Bugbear should have a reduced CMD of 13 rather than the normal 16 (for an Acrobatics DC of 18)
That's what I thought as well.
If a CMD 16 bugbear with a 13 dexterity was blinded and stunned would the CMD be an 11 (-2 penalty to AC for blinded, -2 penalty to AC for stunned, and no dexterity bonus to AC for both)?
Well, a blind creature cannot make an AAO. His target is considered to have total concealment. The character could tumble through his square with any acrobatics result.
Sure to avoid an attack of opportunity, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can freely move though either a blinded or stunned creatures square. It says you can do so for a helpless or unconscious creature. The only rule that talks about moving though an unfriendly square says it requires an acrobatics check equal to CMD+5.
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It seems a little silly to still require the Acrobatics check though. I mean, if they're standing around slack-jawed, what are they doing with their Strength and BaB that's keeping you from moving through their square?
I'd probably just have the character spend an extra 5 ft. of movement to squeeze past them.
I ended up just taking Benchak's thought as I agree with the idea that being blind and stunned is as close to helpless as you could be but it isn't from a game mechanic point of view.
I am not sure what stealth would do in this situation as it does not allow movement through a square. Like RedDog said, there are no attacks of opportunity, the problem was that they were sitting there slack-jawed blocking the door and the party wanted to advance into the room. The rogue, no problem, he just used Acrobatics. The bard on the other hand had difficulty in making the check so I decided to just hand wave it. That was why I posted to see if there was something about the conditions that they were under that I was missing.
In the end I think it is a game mechanic and you wonder what, like Benchak mentioned, does BAB and strength have to do with it once they are blinded and stunned, but them's the rules I guess! I just enacted rule 0 and the game went on as scheduled.
I think we might be barking up the wrong tree here. If the creature can't stop you from moving through then I think the squeezing rules might be in order rather than tumbling.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
That seems to make sense to me.
The character could attempt overrun maneuver instead of Acrobatics check. Combat maneuvers against stunned creatures receive +4 bonus and they can't perform attacks of opportunity.
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I think we might be barking up the wrong tree here. If the creature can't stop you from moving through then I think the squeezing rules might be in order rather than tumbling.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.That seems to make sense to me.
If it works for you, then by all means...but I disagree. Squeezing applies to moving through an enclosed space. It's not really appropriate for this situation.
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
A stunned creature is still standing and represents an obstacle.
As to the stunned creature, the stunned condition means that the bugbear can't actually move in order to make an AoO, so even if there wasn't a rule stating that you can't make an attack of opportunity, unless the bugbear has a MAGICAL way to make an AoO, the bugbear couldn't do an AoO. You know?
That said, I don't know how long the stunned condition would have lasted, but since the bugbear can't move on its own, perhaps your fighter could simply practice some cow-tipping maneuvers on the thing?
As to tumbling through the bugbears square, since they're stunned and can't make an AoO (unless they have a magical or ex ability stating otherwise on their description) I'd have to say that making the acrobatics check to avoid an AoO to move through a creatures check wouldn't matter since while stunned the bugbear can't react.
So in summary, I think your decision to let the PC's move through the bugbears squares unmolested was a good choice in DM discretion.
I believe that the Acrobatics check is to determine two things at once: if you can avoid an enemy's AOO, and if you can physically tumble through the space taken up by the enemy.
If you try to somersault past someone and fall on your butt, they're going to laugh at you and hit you.
If you try to somersault past a blind and stunned person and fall on your butt, they're going to stand there and drool.
In both cases, you fail to circumnavigate your opponent. This is true regardless of if you were the victim of an AOO or not.
I think that the blind & stunned penalties to the bugbear's CMD resulting in a -5 demonstrate how it is easier to attempt to acrobatics through its' square. It has no chance to injure you, but successfully accomplishing the maneuver is not guaranteed.
A stunned creature is still standing and represents an obstacle.
I agree. But while a human takes up a 5' square in combat, a human doesn't take up anywhere near 5' while just standing there. My game room is 18' x 18'. I easily fit a 4' x 9' table and 7 people. Based on game rules, only 4 could fit in the room.
I feel that obstical is just an obstical and not someting that you need to check to see if you can pass, just something that slows you down.
Komoda, this then becomes a situation of GM ruling based on the context of the situation.
I agree with your circumstance that a human standing in a room could possibly not constitute as an obstacle.
I also agree with the OP's scenario that *three* *bugbears* were *blocking an entrance.* could constitute as an obstacle. Not one. Not humans. Blocking an entrance.
It would be like trying to squeeze past Michael Clarke Duncan standing in a doorframe. Doable, but not as easy as walking through an unobstructed doorframe.
LOL, that is hilarious, I miss that guy.
I agree that it seems like a little bit of a hole in the rules and that any of the options present here are reasonable.
