Im looking to design a more or less balanced way to make variatons to summon monster spells using simple templates and adjusting spell level by maybe the cr adjustment ie a simple advanced eagle would be summoned as an alternative option via SM2 spell.
Im concidering making it a feat an example thus far would be.
Grand summoner
You have become extreamly adebt at calling forth lesser creatures to serve you and may even call forth even fiercer members of there kind.
Preq: cl?, augment summoning, ???
Effect: pick a monster from a summon monster list and apply 1 simple template to it and add it to the next level of summon monster list.
Special: this feat can be taken multiple times but no more then twice per monster selected.
Thoughts threats or critiques?
Bump* wow not a view or comment?!
illborn wrote: Im looking to design a more or less balanced way to make variatons to summon monster spells using simple templates and adjusting spell level by maybe the cr adjustment ie a simple advanced eagle would be summoned as an alternative option via SM2 spell.
Im concidering making it a feat an example thus far would be.
Grand summoner
You have become extreamly adebt at calling forth lesser creatures to serve you and may even call forth even fiercer members of there kind.
Preq: cl?, augment summoning, ???
Effect: pick a monster from a summon monster list and apply 1 simple template to it and add it to the next level of summon monster list.
Special: this feat can be taken multiple times but no more then twice per monster selected.
Thoughts threats or critiques?
I'm not really understanding what you are suggesting here.
If its of any use, I've developed more than 20 'themed' summoning lists (constructs, vermin, humanoids, etc.), each with a smaller number of creature options per level (usually 1-3). Its worked out quite nicely and allowed for much greater customization of summoners and conjurers.
illborn wrote: Im looking to design a more or less balanced way to make variatons to summon monster spells using simple templates and adjusting spell level by maybe the cr adjustment ie a simple advanced eagle would be summoned as an alternative option via SM2 spell.
Im concidering making it a feat an example thus far would be.
Grand summoner
You have become extreamly adebt at calling forth lesser creatures to serve you and may even call forth even fiercer members of there kind.
Preq: cl?, augment summoning, ???
Effect: pick a monster from a summon monster list and apply 1 simple template to it and add it to the next level of summon monster list.
Special: this feat can be taken multiple times but no more then twice per monster selected.
Thoughts threats or critiques?
That sounds fairly reasonable; the various animal shamans add advanced and giant versions of animals to their Summon Nature's Ally lists, for instance. I'm not sure I'd pay a feat to add just a single creature to my summon list, though.
I wonder if there might be some strange results with adding the Giant template to creatures, though.
I seem to recall looking into this at one point. My determination at the time was that it wasn't worth it (assuming augment summoning and/or superior summoning) to accept moving into the next higher spell bracket to summon a templated version of a creature. Or was barely worth it...Hard to recall.
At any rate, getting an augmented Giant Wolf is less impressive than getting d3 or d3+1 (more likely) augmented wolves (for example). Just in terms of action economy, it was a losing idea.
I'm sure there are valid counter examples, but I don't recall any being presented when I tried to hash it out with my DM. It's too good to let a (single) feat apply a template and maintain spell level, but it's not good enough (imo...not good enough by a mile) to force it into metamagic territory (higher spell slot/higher summon slot).
Compare a giant dog (hp 10, AC 11/10/10, Bite +6 [1d4+5]) vs a hyena (hp 17, AC 14/12/12, bite +5 (1d6+6+trip)) or 2 to 4 dogs (hp 8, bite +4 (1d4+3), ac 13/12/12), I just don't see it being a good decision. Not one that's worth a feat AND a penalty to use
Maybe make it a metamagic feat?
Benefit: Add the advanced simple template to a summoned monster. (Maybe a feat per template?)
Cost: +1 spell level
Does each level of summoning only bump up the CR of summoned monsters by 1 on average, though?
Akerlof wrote: Maybe make it a metamagic feat?
Benefit: Add the advanced simple template to a summoned monster. (Maybe a feat per template?)
Cost: +1 spell level
Does each level of summoning only bump up the CR of summoned monsters by 1 on average, though?
Advanced is strictly a better template than Giant, so let's look at that instead.
Is an Advanced Augmented Dog (hp 10, bite +6 (1d4+5), ac 17/16/16) as good as an Augmented Hyena (hp 17, AC 14/12/12, bite +5 (1d6+6+trip)) ?
Is an Advanced Augmented Ape (hp 31, AC 18/15/16, 2 slams +7 (1d6+6) as good as or better than an Augmented Dire Ape (hp 38, AC 15/11/13, bite +8 (1d6+6), 2 claws +8 (1d4+6), rend (1d4+8)?
I'm trying to pick creatures that tend to fit the same niche. If you'd never choose the advanced creature over the higher level one, then it's not a viable feat. IMO.
(edit)
I realize I'm coming across as a naysayer, and that's wrong. I want this feat to exist, but I want it to be viable. My final suggestion to my DM before I dropped the whole line of discussion as frustrating, was a feat that allowed a caster to apply a fixed template to summon spells a number of times per day equal to (something). I arbitrarily suggested 3, to put it on par with metamagic feats.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: Advanced is strictly a better template than Giant, so let's look at that instead. This is not necessarily true (assuming you're using the rebuild rules, anyways). For instance, a Giant tyrannosaur does 6d6+26 with its bite attack instead of 4d6+26 for an Advanced tyrannosaur (leaving aside the better reach and CMB modifier).
I also looked at this previously in the context of a Lion Shaman druid, and some advanced/giant creatures seemed worthwhile. For instance, a Giant tiger (SNA V for a lion shaman) is mostly better than a dire lion (also SNA V).
hogarth wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: Advanced is strictly a better template than Giant, so let's look at that instead. This is not necessarily true (assuming you're using the rebuild rules, anyways). For instance, a Giant tyrannosaur does 6d6+26 with its bite attack instead of 4d6+26 for an Advanced tyrannosaur (leaving aside the better reach and CMB modifier).
I also looked at this previously in the context of a Lion Shaman druid, and some advanced/giant creatures seemed worthwhile. For instance, a Giant tiger (SNA V for a lion shaman) is mostly better than a dire lion (also SNA V). o_O
I guess...? Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
(rebuild) Augmented Giant Tiger
Huge Animal
AC 15/10/15 (+1 Dex, +6 Nat, -2 siz)
HP 69 (6d8+42)
Melee 2 claws +13 (2d6+10+grab), 1 bite +12 (2d8+10+grab), rake (2 claws, +13, 2d6+10)
CMB (for the pounce) +18
Augmented Dire Tiger
Large Animal
AC 17/11/15
HP 133 (14d8+70)
Melee 2 claws +20 (2d4+10+grab), bite +20 (2d6+10/19-20 + grab), rake (2 claws, +20, 2d4+10)
CMB +25
Assuming I'm not doing it TOTALLY wrong, the tiger has a damage advantage of ... 6? if he hits. The Dire Tiger has an AC advantage, a HP advantage, a to-hit advantage that makes you CRY that it doesn't have power attack, and a pretty hefty CMB advantage.
...
I wouldn't take the giant tiger, pretty much ever.
Large Animal
Zilvar2k11 wrote: hogarth wrote: I also looked at this previously in the context of a Lion Shaman druid, and some advanced/giant creatures seemed worthwhile. For instance, a Giant tiger (SNA V for a lion shaman) is mostly better than a dire lion (also SNA V). o_O
I guess...? Maybe I'm doing it wrong? I'm not comparing Giant tiger and dire tiger on the Summon Monster list, I'm comparing Giant tiger and dire lion on the Summon Nature's Ally list. (Yes, I know the original post is only talking about Summon Monster, but I looked at the issue before in the context of druids.)
hogarth wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: hogarth wrote: I also looked at this previously in the context of a Lion Shaman druid, and some advanced/giant creatures seemed worthwhile. For instance, a Giant tiger (SNA V for a lion shaman) is mostly better than a dire lion (also SNA V). o_O
I guess...? Maybe I'm doing it wrong? I'm not comparing Giant tiger and dire tiger on the Summon Monster list, I'm comparing Giant tiger and dire lion on the Summon Nature's Ally list. (Yes, I know the original post is only talking about Summon Monster, but I looked at the issue before in the context of druids.) dur
I am capable of reading. I just decided, for some strange reason, not to. I apologize.
Yes. The Dire Lion is a pathetic specimen of cat-dom. Given the choice however, I'd probably take 1d3 or 1d3+1 tigers over either giant tiger or a dire lion (and in fact, I did take the extra tigers over the dire lion at the game table now that I remember)
Zilvar2k11 wrote: Yes. The Dire Lion is a pathetic specimen of cat-dom. Given the choice however, I'd probably take 1d3 or 1d3+1 tigers over either giant tiger or a dire lion [..] Possibly your 1d3s roll higher than mine. :-)
But your point is correct: Sometimes you have a good creature at Summon Monster (N) and a similar pathetic creature at Summon Monster (N+1), in which case the giant/advanced good creature is better than the pathetic creature. And if you're lucky at rolling 1d3, you're probably better off gambling on getting some extra creatures.
hogarth wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: Yes. The Dire Lion is a pathetic specimen of cat-dom. Given the choice however, I'd probably take 1d3 or 1d3+1 tigers over either giant tiger or a dire lion [..] Possibly your 1d3s roll higher than mine. :-)
But your point is correct: Sometimes you have a good creature at Summon Monster (N) and a similar pathetic creature at Summon Monster (N+1), in which case the giant/advanced good creature is better than the pathetic creature. And if you're lucky at rolling 1d3, you're probably better off gambling on getting some extra creatures. Well, my specific point for comparison in this thread is that Superior Summoning is a clearly better decision at this level, and I don't particularly care for that feat. Getting 2-4 creatures at Summon (N+1) is, I believe, a strictly better option than getting Giant/Advanced/whatever creature at Summon (N+1).
Basically, it'd be a trap feat. I think it would be more fair to have a feat that offered the ability to apply Advanced or Giant to the creatures summoned by way of a Summon spell. The feat can be used 3 times per day and can be taken multiple times for more uses (but not stacking templates...I don't THINK that would be overpowered, but I've been wrong plenty of times)
Would making the feat apply the advance template and then have u pick one other simple template be to strong?
illborn wrote: Would making the feat apply the advance template and then have u pick one other simple template be to strong? Probably. Maybe. In my opinion, a single feat that applied two templates, even for a limited number of times per day, would be too good a feat and would be an instant-grab.
My idea for a feat would be something like:
King of Beasts
You have learned to summon more powerful creatures
Prerequisites: Ability to cast Summon Monster 3 or Summon Natures Ally 3
Choose a simple template, when you use a Summon spell to conjure multiples from a lower level summon list, you can apply that template to the creatures you have summoned. This feat can be used 3 times per day.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. You gain additional uses per day.
Well id prolly add under special. That you can take it multiple times and that each time you take it you can add 2 additional uses per day or choose another template, you may only apply one template per spell cast. Otherwise ur feats close enough to what im looking for.
The only other possible changes id even think bout was halfing the duration as an additional cost. I was more or less looking to broaden the options in my e6 world n make summoning more interisting with the more limuted lists available at those levels, cause player announcing i summon a wolf 90% of time gets boring n all lol
illborn wrote: Well id prolly add under special. That you can take it multiple times and that each time you take it you can add 2 additional uses per day or choose another template, you may only apply one template per spell cast. Otherwise ur feats close enough to what im looking for.
The only other possible changes id even think bout was halfing the duration as an additional cost. I was more or less looking to broaden the options in my e6 world n make summoning more interisting with the more limuted lists available at those levels, cause player announcing i summon a wolf 90% of time gets boring n all lol
Fair enough. In an E6 game I imagine the potential for abuse that I was trying to avoid falls off.
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