Thanks for chiming in, Tracy! See, we have street cred. :)
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Personally, I am excited at seeing female writers getting published in the industry. Truthfully, your chances of getting freelance work published relates to the work you do that gets published.
I am also interested in people from any sort of non-mainstream (and unfortunately, in our industry = white male is by far the mainstream) voice getting published in gaming.
Now, many of my favorite game and fiction writers are white males. Not all. But if I like to read and experience new things, and I also want my daughter (who is neither white nor male) to have a shot at freelancing if she's still so into stories and gaming when she's a bit older. I do think it's a plus that people are different and have different experiences, and it should be part, though not all, of how we might welcome authors (and editors, and publishers) we aren't familiar with.
Christina - the only one of the crew I've worked with - is awesome, and if the other talent is only half as good as she is, then this is going to be great.
Looking forward to you ladies bringing the pain! =)
NPC, it is the opportunity that is new. Nobody touts an all-male AP because that is the standard. Do you realize AP # 73 by Amber Scott is the first one written by a woman? 72 have gone by with no female writers! I mean, we exist, right? Why has it taken so long? As a writer, I look for authors' names. As one of the FEW women in the industry, I look to see what my female colleagues are up to. I am happy that Louis is consciously choosing women writers for this AP, as the industry has unconsciously forgotten us or neglected to include us often. He consciously chose to set up many women-run nations in his setting, too. So why not let women write about them?
As we stated above, an all-female-written AP hasn't been done before. It is worth talking about, certainly; whether or not you find it a selling point, the AP is of historical significance in the industry. That's the importance of the subject line. As to writing, we all have our different styles. I'm known for quirky-but-deadly adventures myself. I've been in the industry for 13 or more years, and I've worked on well over 50 products, though you likely have never heard of me. If I was terrible at this, I don't think I would have won the right to lead 3 Kobold Press Open Design projects, nor would Super Genius Games have taken me on as a developer of my own line. So, keep an open mind. We are creating history, but your adventure won't suffer because of it. If you doubt me, ask Wolfgang Baur or Owen Stephens if I have the writing and developer chops to pull this off with the stable of writers We are offering up.
This is going to be fun, deadly, and interesting, I assure you. :)
Last I checked you existed ;) Until it was mentioned in the World Wound Incursion thread I had not known that there weren't any AP portion's written by a woman. While I know that there are more males than women in the industry considering Paizo as a company it never occurred to that there wouldn't be any AP parts written by a woman.
So the big points is that it's a selling point and a historical thresh hold. I understand. Also, I never doubted your credentials or that you and who (Whom?) ever is brought onto this project would perform greatly. Considering your history and who you do work for I have no reason to suspect otherwise :)
Although considering my own bias in regards to gender I suspect you'll do better than your male counterparts.
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I’d love the chance to jump in here with my thoughts. Ever since the AP was announced I’ve been considering what the ramifications of it are and what objections could be raised. I have a few thoughts on why people might resist the idea of an all-female AP and why I support it. I started writing out my points and it turned into a ginormous megapost so I'll break it up into smaller posts.
(This is all imho/ymmv/etc.)
Why restrict the writers to women? Why not take the most talented writers?
If writing jobs were limited to the most talented, there would be very few of us writing. I know I personally was not as developed a writer when I first started out as I am now. It seems a logical assumption that most jobs are placed via a sort of flowchart where the most talented writers are in the top bin, and if they’re not available you move on to the B-list writers, and so on. But that’s not always the way it works (nor should it be the way it works).
The most important reason for searching for non-A list writers is because if you don’t, you run out of talent quickly. Writers can only produce so much material and there are so many publishers who need material. If you only hire the same people over and over again, you run the talent well dry (and all your products start to look the same). Offering opportunities to new writers is a way to discover and develop new talent and keep the writing fresh. RPG Superstar is an example of this—you could easily make the argument that Paizo shouldn’t be offering jobs to untested people via a contest when they could be using their most talented staff all the time.
RPG Superstar, though, is seen as a meritocracy, and in a lot of cultures merit is seen as a neutral, laudable method for selecting individuals. It’s hard to argue with “the best person gets the job.” Where meritocracies fail is when individuals are barred from entry on non-merit based criteria before the selection process (and there are other potential issues, but entry criteria is the one I’ll focus on, as the others are much more philosophical and convoluted).
I’ll probably come back to this idea of self-opting out of a system later, knowing me, but for now I’ll say that there are not many women in writing, and for a publisher to consciously solicit and develop female talent is a smart way to build new blood in a company.
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But ALL women? Isn’t that sexist?
Yes and no. It’s definitely sexist from the point that individuals are being excluded on basis of their gender. The presumed corollary is that all other companies operate as meritocracies and so women have as good a shot as anyone to get into a project. Or at least most of them. But do we really know? As someone pointed out, I was the first female AP writer for Paizo and mine is issue 73. Right up until 72 everyone assumed Paizo was hiring the best writers available and they just happened to be male (right?) Proving that is, of course, impossible. Proving they didn’t and they deliberately sought out male writers is likewise impossible. I happen to be convinced that Paizo hires the best people for the job and it was finally my time; I’m a very experienced writer after all. In fact, I have found Paizo to be the best, most fair and evenhanded company I’ve ever written for.
When you’re a minority writer, it can be difficult to know when you’re losing out on jobs because of your appearance or because of your talent. The default as far as I’m concerned is always to presume my (or others') lack of work is merit-based; I'm (or they're) just not good enough yet. I doubt that's true in every case, though. I’ve experienced sexual harassment and heard of far worse, blatant discrimination levied by experienced writers, publishers, even pretty famous people. I don’t like to name names because, as I said, it’s so hard to prove. But it happens, and it can be very discouraging to non-mainstream writers.
It seems unfair that writers would be excluded from a project because they’re men. Writers are excluded from projects for a ton of reasons that are not merit-based, however. I’ve been excluded from projects because: it’s not my specialty, because I just did something like that, because I’ve never done something like that, because they want someone local, because I’ve written too much for the company recently, and probably because the editor just doesn’t like me. None of those reasons are merit-based. Because an all-female AP is non-merit and gender-based, though, it’s seen as "more" unfair—male writers can’t help being male. That’s true. But writers also can’t help having never worked on monster articles or having written a lot of projects with the word “righteous” in the title (at least, they can’t be responsible for knowing that would make a difference down the road) and no one bats an eye when they are excluded. Sexism is much dicier, and understandably so. It's full of emotion and questions of ethics. Yet I think in this sort of instance, when the balance is so heavily skewed towards men and women are still struggling to contribute to the industry, it can be understood.
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But SEXISM!! I mean you basically just said it is totally sexist!
Ok, it’s totally sexist. I have a feeling the schism of this thread will end up being “is sexism ever justified?”
In essence, this is an affirmative action argument. Affirmative action is a set of policies that takes into account non-merit based criteria in order to combat discrimination or to offer opportunities to a historically underrepresented group. The term is American; in Canada we usually call it employment equity. Call it what you will, it’s an incredibly divisive topic. I don’t honestly expect to change anyone’s minds because it is so divisive; this piece is becoming more and more a way to figure out my own thoughts.
In general, I support employment equity provided a number of principles exist beneath the policies. In short:
-the groups who benefit from EE are genuinely underrepresented or discriminated against. Equal opportunity to seek and be considered for jobs does not currently exist at a reasonable level;
-a baseline of merit is required before candidates will be considered, regardless of what group they belong to; and
-enough opportunity exists for members not of that group to find analogous opportunities elsewhere if a specific opportunity is denied them.
My belief system is a bit more complicated than that, but that’s it in a nutshell. In this case, I believe an all-female AP meets the criteria and does more good than harm.
The first point is the most contentious. Women are genuinely underrepresented as writers in my opinion, but hard numbers are difficult to come by. It’s an opinion formed more by experience and anecdote than study. Others have already commented on the baseline of talent required for this AP and there are plenty of jobs available for male writers; there’s not a shortage of opportunity by any means. For these reasons I support this incarnation of EE.
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Alright, forget the sexism angle. What about the gimmick angle? Isn’t this basically just a marketing ploy?
I don’t believe so. As others have pointed out, “all women writers!” isn’t exactly a strong selling point, so if it’s a marketing ploy it’s a pretty weak one. From conversations with Louis and the Gamer Girls panel at PaizoCon last week, it seems more likely that it’s an effort by the company to support and develop more female talent in the industry.
Publishers use gimmicks all the time. They publish themed anthologies instead of just taking the best stories. They put popular monsters on covers even if the beastie only appears once halfway through the adventure. They use cheesecake art to get people to pick up the product. They coax tired writers out of retirement to produce lukewarm stories so that the writer’s name can get splashed across the cover. Publishing is marketing, and if women writers sold, you can bet every company in the industry would be hawking their sweet team of superwomen writers by morning. The fact that they’re not shows that an all-female AP is not a marketing ploy, because there are far more lucrative and time-tested marketing ploys.
You keep saying it’s important to develop women writers. Why? Do women really write differently than men?
Of course. Writers from different cultures also write differently. So do writers from different socio-economic classes and writers from different generations. Every individual has a unique existence that shapes his or her writing. Encouraging underrepresented writer groups, of which women writers is but one, invests diversity and a variety of styles and voices into a product line. Gamers are a diverse lot with a variety of tastes and playing styles. It’s unlikely that one subgroup of writers could produce material that appeals to everyone.
This is a ridiculously long post.
Sure is. TL;DR version: I think an all-female AP, in this time and place in the industry, is a good idea that can help develop underrepresented writers and hopefully inspire more women to enter the industry—not because men aren’t doing a good job but because variety is good for the industry.
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I'm usually hanging out in the science fiction field. I'm used to being alongside female writers and female editors, or even being the only guy in my writer's group.
Then I go back to the gaming field and I find situations like this. Seriously? And proof of the ubiquity of the problem is that I hadn't even noticed 72 issues without a single woman on the byline.
This is long overdue.
For me the most interesting part of this whole discussion is people thoughts and why I decided to do something like this. So I thought it might be best if I explained myself on the reasoning of why I wanted to do an all-female written adventure path. It basically comes down to one simple little thing which is:
I wanted to work with Christina Stiles on a Pathfinder project, and I wanted to find a project that should would be interested in working on with LPJ Design.
See LPJ Design while one of the better known 3PP in the market we are not equal in exposure and sales to Wolfgang Baur’s Open Design. And with that, I am sure Open Design pays better than LPJ Design. This is not me complaining, this are just the facts of the matter. I mean if most people had a choice of working with Louis Porter Jr. or Wolfgang Baur, I am man enough to admit 9 times out of 10 people would pick Wolfgang, with good reason. Christina does a lot of work for Open Design, so to get her to take this project it had to be more interesting than what she might be doing with Open Design. And with that I started thinking: What would interest her as a writer and make it possible that I could afford her services as a writer? Of course, a kickstarter. But Christina has already done several kickstarters with Open Design, so what I had to offer had to be more interesting, more unique then what she normally would see.
Now let’s go back in time to June 2011, I just finished working on a project called Monsters of NeoExodus: Annihilation Sphere written by Amber E. Scott. I was a fan of Amber’s work and getting her to write in my own setting NeoExodus was a dream come true. She turned in what I though was a great monster piece that would work well in the setting and we released it as a PDF. The PDF received a 5-star review and Endzeitgeist seal of approval. This is the ONLY product from the NeoExodus line to receive such high praise, so you know I wanted to work with Amber again. But due to all types of factors on both of our sides it was virtually impossible to set up. I must say that even 2 years later, I think my desire to work with Amber was most likely in the back of my might when I approached Christina about working with me. And once again what idea popped up in my mind? Kickstarter.
Since I knew I wanted to see something interesting a different when working with Christina I think the idea of doing an all-female adventure path came to me when I remember I originally built the setting of NeoExodus as being a female focused RPG campaign setting. And with that I pitched the idea of this kickstarter to Christina, who loved it. We made a list of names of women writers we knew and who might be interested and the rest is history.
When you are a small publisher you have to find ways to get people who you are fans of to work with you, because simply put they could work for someone else who could pay them better or get more exposure in the industry. I like to match up people who I think would work very well on specific projects. Christina came with a great skill set as a writer and to organize and project manage this crazy idea I pitched to her. I am very thankful to Christina, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Tracy Davis Hurley, Miranda Horner and the many others for taking time out of this busy lives to work on a project. I am glad they took the time out to work with me.
Oh and by the way I am still trying to find a way to get Amber to write for us on this. Maybe we can get even more lucky with this project.
I'm excited to see the final product here and congratulate everyone involved in this. The staff, inspirational material and setting are all wonderful ingredients for a compelling work!
It's timely as well; the topic of sexism in gaming has been getting traction lately and it's about time.
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Where meritocracies fail is when individuals are barred from entry on non-merit based criteria before the selection process
They also fail when they're not really meritocracies. There are numerous studies out there that show, for instance, that if you send two identical resumes out to job postings, the one with the female name at the top systematically does worse than the one with the male name at the top.
There are a lot of systems out there that claim or pretend to be meritocracies (the one I'm most familiar with being hiring at Universities) that are not entirely meritocracies, and marred by unconscious (or even conscious) bias. You have to be aware of and work to overcome those biases.
Addressing the sexism part; when you set out to do something deliberately with one gender for that very reason, that's activism, not sexism. If I decide to get together a bunch of men (and only men!) and build a group shelter for battered women, that's male activism - men coming together to make a social/political point.
Conversely, if I decided to start a business building houses, for profit, and only hired men because 'women can't do construction work', that's sexism.
So, back to this project: All women authors to prove the point that women can write for RPGs, and write well. Hiring male authors for that project therefore is contrary to the stated objective, and not sexism.
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So do we finally get the shoe shopping side quest now? :D
Since you are dealing with me, they could be magic boots of ass kicking, so yes that is a possibility.
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So do we finally get the shoe shopping side quest now? :D
Not until after the baby shower. ;-)
So do we finally get the shoe shopping side quest now? :D
Wouldn't that be a Wizard of Oz rip-off?
So do we finally get the shoe shopping side quest now? :D
I can't favorite this joke enough!
So I was just wondering, what type of rewards and threshold goals would donors like to see for this kickstarter? We have a list of items, but that changes almost on a daily basis, so I want to hear from those interested.
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Addressing the sexism part; when you set out to do something deliberately with one gender for that very reason, that's activism, not sexism. If I decide to get together a bunch of men (and only men!) and build a group shelter for battered women, that's male activism - men coming together to make a social/political point.
Conversely, if I decided to start a business building houses, for profit, and only hired men because 'women can't do construction work', that's sexism.
So, back to this project: All women authors to prove the point that women can write for RPGs, and write well. Hiring male authors for that project therefore is contrary to the stated objective, and not sexism.
Ah but you are talking about men serving women. if men came together to build a shelter for men how would it be seen? Try hiring all men (specifically and stated as such) for anything and see how well that goes over. for daycare for instance.
So I was just wondering, what type of rewards and threshold goals would donors like to see for this kickstarter? We have a list of items, but that changes almost on a daily basis, so I want to hear from those interested.
PDF's would be nice. I'm not familiar with several the ladies writting this, and would love to get some samples of there style before the adventure path. Same goes NeoExodus stuff - I haven't got many bits for the setting yet.
So I was just wondering, what type of rewards and threshold goals would donors like to see for this kickstarter? We have a list of items, but that changes almost on a daily basis, so I want to hear from those interested.
Well a
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Ah but you are talking about men serving women. if men came together to build a shelter for men how would it be seen? Try hiring all men (specifically and stated as such) for anything and see how well that goes over. for daycare for instance.
The point is that you don't have to do it specifically and stated as such to get that result. Look at Paizo's APs: every one of them before Wrath of the Righteous have had all-male authors for the adventures.
If you want to try it the other way around, it takes effort, thus that's why it's specific and stated as such.
Ah but you are talking about men serving women. if men came together to build a shelter for men how would it be seen?
Still activism. There are male rights activist groups out there, after all. Child custody cases in particular are extremely pro-woman, even when the mother has a criminal record.
Try hiring all men (specifically and stated as such) for anything and see how well that goes over. for daycare for instance.
I think that it's pretty clear that the reasons you're doing something have to be clear. What reason is there for an all-male daycare service? Incidentally, all boy private schools exist and continue to operate, and society still seems to be accepting of the notion of gender separated education, sports, and other activities. Probably because gender differences are significant in education and sports.
Now, back to RPG writing, there's a huge disproportion between the sexes. One way to address the disproportion is to attract more women into writing for RPGs, thus this project. Now, personally, I'm not convinced that the gender disproportion is one that arises from inherent sexism in the industry, but given the attitude of a lot of gamers ("OMG a girl gamer!"), the gender disparity in RPG _players_ probably does arise from a certain amount of sexism, and that results in a disparity on the writing end by default. Less female gamers = less female writers.
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Ah but you are talking about men serving women. if men came together to build a shelter for men how would it be seen?Still activism. There are male rights activist groups out there, after all. Child custody cases in particular are extremely pro-woman, even when the mother has a criminal record.
Try hiring all men (specifically and stated as such) for anything and see how well that goes over. for daycare for instance.I think that it's pretty clear that the reasons you're doing something have to be clear. What reason is there for an all-male daycare service? Incidentally, all boy private schools exist and continue to operate, and society still seems to be accepting of the notion of gender separated education, sports, and other activities. Probably because gender differences are significant in education and sports.
Now, back to RPG writing, there's a huge disproportion between the sexes. One way to address the disproportion is to attract more women into writing for RPGs, thus this project. Now, personally, I'm not convinced that the gender disproportion is one that arises from inherent sexism in the industry, but given the attitude of a lot of gamers ("OMG a girl gamer!"), the gender disparity in RPG _players_ probably does arise from a certain amount of sexism, and that results in a disparity on the writing end by default. Less female gamers = less female writers.
maybe i see things differently playing in a club dominated for a long time by women but neither here nor at cons have i ever witness the scarcity of female gamers other describe. Nor do i see pushing a project as all female a good way to do anything about this percieved lack. letting good female writers and gamers get credit they have earned seems a better way to me than to make a show of this as the 'girls only book"
maybe i see things differently playing in a club dominated for a long time by women but neither here nor at cons have i ever witness the scarcity of female gamers other describe. Nor do i see pushing a project as all female a good way to do anything about this percieved lack. letting good female writers and gamers get credit they have earned seems a better way to me than to make a show of this as the 'girls only book"
Then forget about the writers.
How about waiting a judging the results on their own terms? Are the resulting adventures (and metaplot) well-written, interesting, well-balanced, and fun to run/play?
That really, at the end of all this, is what will matter.
PDF's would be nice. I'm not familiar with several the ladies writting this, and would love to get some samples of there style before the adventure path. Same goes NeoExodus stuff - I haven't got many bits for the setting yet.
This will help you learn a little bit about the writers involved:
Here is a list of products that Christina Stiles has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Amanda Hamon Kunz has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Tracy Davis Hurley has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Miranda Horner has worked on.
And with NeoExodus we alwasy say start first with NeoExodus website and go from there.
Hope you found this helpful on deciding to support this kickstarter.
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maybe i see things differently playing in a club dominated for a long time by women but neither here nor at cons have i ever witness the scarcity of female gamers other describe. Nor do i see pushing a project as all female a good way to do anything about this percieved lack. letting good female writers and gamers get credit they have earned seems a better way to me than to make a show of this as the 'girls only book"
Andrew R could you please inform me where you club is located and how to get in touch with them because I would be very interested in hearing some of their feedback on our plans and their general questions about gaming? This would be very helpful. Thanks!
maybe i see things differently playing in a club dominated for a long time by women but neither here nor at cons have i ever witness the scarcity of female gamers other describe. Nor do i see pushing a project as all female a good way to do anything about this percieved lack. letting good female writers and gamers get credit they have earned seems a better way to me than to make a show of this as the 'girls only book"
It will of course only make a good impression if it's a good Adventure Path. That's a risk you take. But as I said earlier, it's essentially harmless good press.
PDF's would be nice. I'm not familiar with several the ladies writting this, and would love to get some samples of there style before the adventure path. Same goes NeoExodus stuff - I haven't got many bits for the setting yet.This will help you learn a little bit about the writers involved:
Here is a list of products that Christina Stiles has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Amanda Hamon Kunz has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Tracy Davis Hurley has worked on.
Here is a list of products that Miranda Horner has worked on.
And with NeoExodus we alwasy say start first with NeoExodus website and go from there.
Hope you found this helpful on deciding to support this kickstarter.
Thank you for the links. I'm...slightly broke at the moment, as it's my little girls birthday in a few days, but I fully intend to support the Kickstarter. I've been perusing the NeoExodus website too. Unfortunately, I can't afford any PDF's right now, but once I can I shall grab some from the various people involved.
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Thank you for the links. I'm...slightly broke at the moment, as it's my little girls birthday in a few days, but I fully intend to support the Kickstarter. I've been perusing the NeoExodus website too. Unfortunately, I can't afford any PDF's right now, but once I can I shall grab some from the various people involved.
Grab this one, World of Exodus, it is completely free and gives you a great background on the setting itself. Hope this helps! Thanks for support.
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For everyone else, when you see something that wildly inappropriate, flag it and move on. Don't feed the trolls.
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Grab this one, World of Exodus, it is completely free and gives you a great background on the setting itself. Hope this helps! Thanks for support.
Thank you, I'd missed that you had any free products available for sampling.
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Apparently Dynamite Comics, who does the Pathfinder comic, also thinks have All-Star Female Writers focused team are a good thing with their upcoming Legends Of Red Sonja comic.
Ok, NOW I'll check out some comic books. ;-) Thanks, Louis.
OK I am starting to think about artwork for this project so I have to wonder what people might like to see artwise. Who would be your top three artist you would like to see work on this project? And of of course Wayne Reynolds is #1 on everyone list.