Assuming you've read the whole thread, what are your conclusions from the discussion so far?
If I'm paying what it takes to gate an outsider and negotiate for services you best believe I'm getting some time out of that deal. Probably weeks if not months minimum. I'm actually in the process of working out to get a several year service out of a good outsider to act as the general manager of my good aligned organization while I'm out adventuring.
So again. Very little to do with the Summoner being a full caster. Using it to get a pet to run your organization is not the same as having access to unlimited resources during combat. Not to mention that's a CRAP ton of gold your talking about and technically beyond the scope of the spell.
A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD. That is a max of 20 days.
I was in a developer's game at PaizoCon, and the topic of the synthesist was brought up. A tale was recalled about how they had a synthesist in their game right when UM came out and they, as they put it, 'found out about it's powerlevel at the same time the forums did', and that their reaction was along lines of 'Oh, oh...wow. That's strong.'
Just a little something for you to consider, Undone.
Here are my conclusions...
1. People over estimate what a Summoner can realistically do.
2. The term CODzilla is interpreted differently person to person (and web site to web site)
3. Never post a 2 year old build from 3.5 as an example unless you want to derail a thread.
4. This topic is a lot of fun to discuss.
They can agree to stick around for however long they want. If the request is in line with their ethos this makes that somewhat likely. It's a matter of haggling the price, really. A couple years to an immortal being is essentially nothing. For a good cause on top to boot where they get to actively plot against evil and that's their day job anyway? Sounds like a nice vacation to them where they're unlikely to face things on the material plane that could outright kill them as compared to fighting off hordes of demons or whatever.
Now, if I were gating in something to basically be a personal companion for a few days as I go against the BBEG in his lair I totally get their benefits as well. And since we're talking about gate that's easily an outsider with 9th level spells including wishes and miracles who can also likely summon in other creatures themselves. There's your unlimited resources in combat. Think leadership where your cohort has cohorts except none of them have to -2 levels of the previous character.
Wizards have gate.
Gate is never so useful that spamming it 10 times a day means anything.
SMIX on the other hand lets you summon an army wreck s$%^ for 1 minute per level as a master summoner.
Ofcourse any tradition full-caster can solve the problem any number of ways, but only the master summoner has the unleash the horde fun.
Hmm... SM IX 10+ times a day or all gates? That's kind of difficult. Expensive if you go with gate but the possibilities are staggering. Frightening even.
Hmm... SM IX 10+ times a day or all gates? That's kind of difficult. Expensive if you go with gate but the possibilities are staggering. Frightening even.
It's stupid to go all gates. You really think blowing 100K gold is in anyway practical?
You're talking about practicality in this thread? I think you missed the point.
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When consumables are consumed the WBL Fairy notices you're below par, and comes to top you off again!
Probably with a horde that just happens to be in the hands of the critters you just defeated with the critters you Gated!
Tis the circle of life. the circular flow!
It think you are missing the point. CoDzilla could be ran naked and suffer little problems.
The money you are talking about blowing makes a Fighter the best character in the game.
It think you are missing the point. CoDzilla could be ran naked and suffer little problems.
The money you are talking about blowing makes a Fighter the best character in the game.
That sounds like pun-pun. Gear always matters.
It think you are missing the point.
Me? A dull-witted droid who can't even navigate stairs, miss the point?
O.o
Nevertheless, the point remains!
That sounds like pun-pun. Gear always matters.It think you are missing the point. CoDzilla could be ran naked and suffer little problems.
The money you are talking about blowing makes a Fighter the best character in the game.
Pfft, Summoners just get other people to do their work. CoDzilla is so buffed up it doesn't even matter. Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Magic Fang. Possibly on a defending weapon so you can just take the AC and abuse that full casting some more...
It think you are missing the point.
Me? A dull-witted droid who can't even navigate stairs, miss the point?
O.o
Nevertheless, the point remains!
Not you.
I don't get why people are going on an on and on about Gate. Gate was one of the two 9th level spells I mentioned. In fact, specifically due to the cost associated with it I have focused primarily on Summon Monster IX because it's not like that isn't enough. Gate just happens to be an "oh the s&+~tath hath hittath the fannath" spell that is on call when you need it.
Honestly it's not like being able to spam SM IX isn't good enough. It's one of the better 9th level spells in Pathfinder.
two notes:
CoDzilla's intrinsic definition is based on a Core Druid or Cleric. NOT one with Persistent SPell and Divine Metamagic.
Two: You can't get damage immunity via regeneration. If you become immune to damage, your Regeneration simply turns into Fast Healing. That's a 3.5 ruling. So, the Lich King build just has FH/1, not damage immunity.
=+Aelryinth
it has all the benefits of undeath and none of the penalties due to levels in bone knight.
regeneration makes all damage nonlethal except fire and acid, requires a constitution score, which it has
the benefits of undeath derived from bone knight levels grant immunity to nonlethal damage
so the only things that can damage it are fire and acid, that isn't immunity to damage
that is taking an ability that grants immunity to nonlethal damage and taking a second ability that turns all lethal damage into nonlethal. thus negating it.
the guy still has a constitution score, so he still qualifies for regeneration. damned bone knight cheese.
The ruling was that if you had a Regeneration effect that had no vulnerability where you could take real damage (which is entirely what this build is trying to achieve), then your Regeneration became fast healing.
Ergo, that's what this build has. Eh, c'mon, the half-dragon demon trolls tried to do the same thing, which is what started this nonsense.
==Aelryinth
The ruling was that if you had a Regeneration effect that had no vulnerability where you could take real damage (which is entirely what this build is trying to achieve), then your Regeneration became fast healing.
Ergo, that's what this build has. Eh, c'mon, the half-dragon demon trolls tried to do the same thing, which is what started this nonsense.
==Aelryinth
Might be, but has little to do with that build, as it does have vulnerabilities to fire and acid.
That it is hypocritcal to say a sorceror is not T1 because it does not know every spell when it can with the proper selction of spells still answer all the challenges.** spoiler omitted **
Dead horse being beat.
You keep doing wrong assestments of sorcerers.
First, even naked 20th level sorcerers have more than 3 9th level spells. The bare minimum is 4th, couse of the bloodline. It practice it's 5, becauae you can get a 9th lvl spell as your 19th lvl feat, and there is no feat in the game that is better than being able to stop time or disjunct magic.That said, for 88.000 gold, a mere 10 % of the sorcerer WBL, you have twenty extra 9th level spells that you can cast, using mnemonic vestments and a wardrobe. At least you have told us the difference between tier 1 and 2. Tier 2 can sokve any problem. Tier 1 can solve it in nine different ways. Sorcerers can solve any problem in 9+ different ways at 20.
Pfft, Summoners just get other people to do their work. CoDzilla is so buffed up it doesn't even matter. Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Magic Fang. Possibly on a defending weapon so you can just take the AC and abuse that full casting some more...That sounds like pun-pun. Gear always matters.It think you are missing the point. CoDzilla could be ran naked and suffer little problems.
The money you are talking about blowing makes a Fighter the best character in the game.
codzillas were way much more powerful. But they also were in a ecosystem were wizards could PunPun, and several characters wre inmune to damage or could pull infinite loops.
I don't get why people are going on an on and on about Gate. Gate was one of the two 9th level spells I mentioned. In fact, specifically due to the cost associated with it I have focused primarily on Summon Monster IX because it's not like that isn't enough. Gate just happens to be an "oh the s*#@tath hath hittath the fannath" spell that is on call when you need it.
Honestly it's not like being able to spam SM IX isn't good enough. It's one of the better 9th level spells in Pathfinder.
at 10k per cast it's a steal. Way cheaper than wish. Specially since you can Gat a Wish.
The bargaining with the outsider is fully optional, you can ask and give him nothing in return. The offer just give you +0 to +6 to your Cha check, which is great for wizards, but not really necessary for summoners with huge Cha.
The planar binding clause:
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.
Sorcerers and wizards use gate to the same effect.
NEVER is a summoner going to drop 100k gold to spam gate, making it a wash.
None of them spam it like they can spam Summon monster IX. But summoners (and sorcerers and oracles) cast it much more easily, as they can safely ignore the bargaining part, because of sheer charisma.
When in a pinch, and needing a cleric spell (such as resurrect) a wizard would cast Wish. While a sorcerer or summoner or oracle could Gate for a resurrect (or a Wish) comfortably enough.
None of them spam it like they can spam Summon monster IX. But summoners (and sorcerers and oracles) cast it much more easily, as they can safely ignore the bargaining part, because of sheer charisma.
When in a pinch, and needing a cleric spell (such as resurrect) a wizard would cast Wish. While a sorcerer or summoner or oracle could Gate for a resurrect (or a Wish) comfortably enough.
You mean sorcerers don't have high cha???
Yes the summoner can spam SMIX. That's the important part. All this talk of being able to spam gate is stupid. No one spams gate. He has access to the gate spell, but he is not alone in this.
You mean sorcerers don't have high cha???None of them spam it like they can spam Summon monster IX. But summoners (and sorcerers and oracles) cast it much more easily, as they can safely ignore the bargaining part, because of sheer charisma.
When in a pinch, and needing a cleric spell (such as resurrect) a wizard would cast Wish. While a sorcerer or summoner or oracle could Gate for a resurrect (or a Wish) comfortably enough.
???
No, quite the opposite. Summoners, sorcerers and oracles can use Gate more confindently than Wizards and Clerics. They don't need to bargain for it, because or the raw force if their personality.
None of them spam it like they can spam Summon monster IX. But summoners (and sorcerers and oracles) cast it much more easily, as they can safely ignore the bargaining part, because of sheer charisma.
When in a pinch, and needing a cleric spell (such as resurrect) a wizard would cast Wish. While a sorcerer or summoner or oracle could Gate for a resurrect (or a Wish) comfortably enough.
You mean sorcerers don't have high cha???
Yes the summoner can spam SMIX. That's the important part. All this talk of being able to spam gate is stupid. No one spams gate. He has access to the gate spell, but he is not alone in this.
I agree. Talk of spamming gate is stupid. Summon Monster IX is enough for virtually every fight, except that one where you really need something huge, and then you have spontaneous gate on call.
Spamming Summon Monster IX is plenty. Especially when you've got spells like Maze to back it up.
So, summon monster isn't a summoner only ability. What else makes them CoDzilla?
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I would think it's the mix of abilities that make this beast rather than it ONLY having certain features that no one else has. Considering you need to cross class and whatnot with it that's an unreasonable expectation anyway.
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Summon Monster for minutes / level as a standard action IS a summoner-only trick; many of the spell-like abilities (especially at wills) were not meant to be "on tap" like that for long periods of time.
Also, their pet is the most powerful pet you can have, thanks to personalization issues that don't even make it hard to have a 32-strength combat machine around 8th level (and still not sacrifice AC).
And the ability to buff said pet (with buffs that are usually reserved only for personal, a la clerics) and still full attack in the same round? That was my CodZilla's trick (Divine Metamagic was banned before Persistant Divine was around, but I quickened divine from the minute Complete Divine was introduced).
So again, attack and buff, effectively full caster (thanks to "level changed" spells). Yep, that's a codzillza :).
I would think it's the mix of abilities that make this beast rather than it ONLY having certain features that no one else has. Considering you need to cross class and whatnot with it that's an unreasonable expectation anyway.
Okay, what abilities? Clerics also know summon monster 1 - 9, get full casting(More spells and options), and have 3/4 BAB and better armor proficiencies. They also get domains instead of a focus on an eidolon, and channel(though not sure what channel is worth.) They can still take feats to improve their own summons too.
So, summon monster isn't a summoner only ability. What else makes them CoDzilla?
a pet that wins DPR olympics by it's ow with a AC that dwarfs martials. Two sets of skills (including pet). The posibility to either fake physical stats (synthesist), or have a huge horde pre-summoned (master).
All those could be fair arguments for it.
So, summon monster isn't a summoner only ability. What else makes them CoDzilla?a pet that wins DPR olympics by it's ow with a AC that dwarfs martials. Two sets of skills (including pet). The posibility to either fake physical stats (synthesist), or have a huge horde pre-summoned (master).
All those could be fair arguments for it.
Can he do them all at once while fighting side by side with his pet functionally? That was what CoDzilla could do. Though the pet was druid only.
All at once? Cast AND do massive damage in the same round? Doing so while have high saves and AC? You bet.
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The answer is "No" on can he fight beside his pet. Doesn't matter; even the druid should not have been doing that past about level 10.
His pet just happens to be massively better than even the Druid's pet that is Animal Growth-buffed and has Greater Magic Fang.
Instead of fighting beside, he buffs or battlefield controls; that's a better-played CodZilla (and what many druids opted for, given the choice).
All at once? Cast AND do massive damage in the same round? Doing so while have high saves and AC? You bet.
Must be a different class we're talking about. Never seen a summoner go full BAB+ Buffs melee on someone side by side with a Solar like I have a cleric. Cleric also quickened metamagic some spells while doing it. To be fair, that guy was eating up his high level spells pretty quickly. His quickened touch attack pretty much outright killed the guy anyway. Oh, and he had an undead army back at home working on a toy shop. The guy who played him was just that kind of person I guess?
The answer is "No" on can he fight beside his pet. Doesn't matter; even the druid should not have been doing that past about level 10.
And? The Druid can do that while still being a full caster with battlefield control. Wild shape + Natural spell. Wild shape used to be a lot more powerful though.
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Woah woah woah. We're either factoring in gear or we're not. Not some half-assed "heavy is always better than" light bs. If we're talking about high level cross classed characters you best believe armor is being enchanted and so on. The regular eidolon can be a martial power house with the summoner casting along with it as it does its attacks. That's a completely valid scenario. At level 16 the regular summoner can even merge with his eidolon and be more than even a synthesist alone. You lose the action economy but you can absolutely grab up quickened spell-like ability and still cast and full attack same round.
I also NEVER rely on just armor alone for AC. Shield and barkskin are all on the summoner spell list. That's a +9 AC alone that can be done practically at any point in the day. The armor would be putting out way more than mage armor at that point which is why I didn't mention it. Factoring all the other self buffs with magic fang greater and the like the summoner is a sweetly self-contained package without needing to multiclass.
I will add one thing. The Minutes per level vs rounds per level is great but... it really only matters the first 5 levels and the last few levels.
Assuming 10-15 minutes between fights is generous. Most combat last what... 3 to 5 rounds. So once you hit 5th level your 5 minute summon is pretty much the same as a 5 round summon. Now at high levels it jumps back up to a big advantage... 20 minutes is enough time you can probably hit two encounters with the same summons.
And its good for out of combat functions (scouting, casting, ect). But I still think its a bit overblown.
All at once? Cast AND do massive damage in the same round? Doing so while have high saves and AC? You bet.That's false, A synthesist has High AC, High Saves and High Damage but can't cast and attack in the same turn.
Actually, he can. All he need is a rod of quicken spell. He can even use it while still having access to a LOT of arms to do attacks. And he can have pretty much anything he wants from its evolution points too.
*Wanders in with another random crate*
"I'm just going to put this right here."
Hey James, lets say that you let ur players reach the biggest city(metropolis)in ur adventure at level 12, how hard would it be to find a Potion of Stoneskin made by a Summoner(the only class that can make it)? Would you make it nearly impossible to get? or just has easy has any level 3 potion in the market?Please spell out "your" instead of "ur." Makes it hard to read when you do that.
I don't allow summoners in my game, for a few reasons. One of those is that their spell list breaks rules I prefer not to be broken.
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Even if you don't space them, they can still buff around. At level 5, Having a guy around for 5 minutes who continually refreshes Aid (Lantern archon) after the fight is awesome. That takes care of the low-end of a "5-10 mins between combats" GM, and towards mid levels it takes care of all of it. And the buffs keep getting better and more numerous; at 11th level you can pull out actual full bards, guys with true sight, etc. It's like casting to get a caster, and you get around 8-9 uses out of this.
And Will save is one of several reasons I don't consider Quadraped the "superior" form, much as I conceptually love pounce (it never has played out right in the times I've tried to make conception a reality). The other reason is Biped's strength and automatic reach adjustment with size increase (Combat Reflexes feels like Pounce, and prevents 5-foot-step mages).
Can he do them all at once while fighting side by side with his pet functionally? That was what CoDzilla could do. Though the pet was druid only.So, summon monster isn't a summoner only ability. What else makes them CoDzilla?a pet that wins DPR olympics by it's ow with a AC that dwarfs martials. Two sets of skills (including pet). The posibility to either fake physical stats (synthesist), or have a huge horde pre-summoned (master).
All those could be fair arguments for it.
So the cleric isn't able to do that, yet he is Codzilla. Go figure. Then there's no problem with Summoner doing the same I guess.
So the cleric isn't able to do that, yet he is Codzilla. Go figure. Then there's no problem with Summoner doing the same I guess.
The cleric is perfectly capable of doing that actually.
So the cleric isn't able to do that, yet he is Codzilla. Go figure. Then there's no problem with Summoner doing the same I guess.The cleric is perfectly capable of doing that actually.
How does a cleric fight, cast spells and fight side by side with his pet in the same round?
How does a cleric fight, cast spells and fight side by side with his pet in the same round?So the cleric isn't able to do that, yet he is Codzilla. Go figure. Then there's no problem with Summoner doing the same I guess.The cleric is perfectly capable of doing that actually.
That isn't what I said, but I did give an example upthread of a cleric who cast a spell, full attacked with full BAB+(plus his buffs!), attacked side by side with a solar he summoned and also buffed, and all the while had an undead horde making toys.
The summoner doesn't get to full attack at full BAB with his pet by his side while casting a spell and controlling a horde. He has to pick between his body suit, his eidolon, and his summons. He never gets access to full BAB, but I'm sure synth can create a quasi-full BAB.