While the Mythic rules have not yet come out, I did notice two interesting similarities between Mythic rules and the Mantle: first, you can get a +2 bonus to an ability score with Mythic Rules (upon 2nd tier of Mythicdom), and second, Mythic abilities can be bestowed by a Patron. So I'm curious as to if anyone has considered swapping out the Mantle with Mythic tiers. While initially the characters wouldn't get that +2 to any one stat, they would have some very nice bonuses as a result. The second level of Mythic could even take place some time later, allowing them to slowly grow into their Mythic abilities (or in other words, there's no reason to go to the 10th Mythic Tier - one or two levels would suffice).
As the finalized rules are not yet out, I'm also curious as to what would be needed to "toughen up" enemies so they're a more viable threat against Mythic characters (even those on the lower tiers). Ironically, the massive delays my Reign of Winter group has suffered in getting together is conspiring to allow Mythic rules to come out by the time they meet the Black Rider; given that the characters are already several levels higher than is recommended for this game, I'm already "upgrading" encounters to compensate.
(I mean, I suppose I can just make "boss" type encounters in the game Mythic (such as Ted Knotten) - that would increase their CR by a decent amount. But while I've looked over the rules, I didn't playtest them (my groups don't gather often enough to let me do that), so I'm not entirely sure how much nastier a Mythic character is over normal ones - except for that initiative bonus at the 2nd Mythic Tier which I kind of think is over the top.)
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(or in other words, there's no reason to go to the 10th Mythic Tier - one or two levels would suffice).
Indeed, the AP can probably support PCs with at most two Mythic tiers before the balance really starts getting wonky. Not that this is a problem in your specific case, since you've already committed to heavy rewrites, but for folks who can't or don't want to do that, this can be an important consideration. That said, there are definitely some Mythic themes in Reign of Winter, and Mythic power pops up in a couple places.
The problem would be finding trials for the PCs. These don't have to be all that concentrated; I'd like to see the PCs attain their second Mythic tier sometime before the fifth chapter. Assuming this aspect of the Mythic playtest carries over into the finalized ruleset, that means they'd have to face three lesser trials each and one greater trial as a party between meeting the Black Rider and the fifth chapter.
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Okay, I've ran the numbers, and leaving the AP as written, four PCs advancing according to the Slow experience progression (which they're supposed to do when using Mythic tiers) but gaining one Mythic tier upon receiving the Black Rider's mantle and another Mythic tier upon defeating Yrax end The Frozen Stars at level 11, tier 2. This is equivalent to level 13, the level at which the PCs are supposed to end The Frozen Stars without Mythic tiers.
Reign of Winter not being designed with Mythic rules in mind, however, makes this problematic. Mythic tiers or no, the PCs going into Rasputin Must Die will be "missing" two levels worth of HP, BAB, class abilities, and spell levels. Come to think of it, The Witch-Queen's Revenge probably assumes the PCs have access to level 8 spells, which under this scheme they won't get until the very end of that adventure. I'm not entirely sure the Mythic tiers make up for that, which is somewhat ironic when you think about it.
I've no problem with the group being higher than 17th level when the game ends. I was originally going to push for 18th or 19th level to be honest. And I was originally worried about giving Rasputin an additional two levels of Oracle as I wasn't sure what the level 20 abilities would do for him. Mythic Tiers would be a useful method of increasing his ability without worrying about Oracle levels.
As for your scenario, there is one thing to consider: not everyone will run a straight cleric or straight wizard. My group, for instance, has as PCs an eventual Mystic Theurge (Wiz/Cl), a Ranger, a Rogue, and an Eldritch Knight (Fi/Wiz(Trans)). None of them would have level 8 magic by 17th level (the EK would be caster level 14, while the MT would be CL 14 in one class and 13 in the other). (There's two GMPCs as well - assuming they survive, one's a Paladin and the other's got one level Sorcerer and focused on Druid after that. But that assumes they don't retire or the like. The second character wasn't supposed to stay on, until one of the players latched onto her.)
Two points:
1.) Amazing Initiative was "too much" during the playtest - I believe that +1 init/MT is sufficient and perhaps will be "RAW" come August.
2.) Lesser Trials were discarded as a result of the playtest, last I heard. Don't worry about those.
As far as what 2 mythic tiers does ... consider the 2 tiers equating to 1 level at Medium XP Progression and call it a wash. Slow progression is going to gimp the PCs far more than being 1 level behind at Medium progression.
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I think giving them Mythic Tiers shouldn't present too much of a problem if you don't mind doing the extra work to update all the encounters. You could conceivably even do more than 2 Tiers. Going by the 2 Tiers equals 1 level equation they could have 4 Tiers by the time they fight Rasputin and you could give him 2 more levels in Oracle.
If him having even more level 9 spells and his capstone is not preferable to you, you could add some Fey minions brought from the Thrice-Tenth kingdom. Two Ankou and a Grimm would work.
Elvanna could even get a Mythic Tier or two herself to up the challenge in Book 6.
I'm already upgrading stuff. Using Mythic to upgrade isn't going to be too much a problem (assuming that Wolfslair is able to integrate Mythic into Hero Labs, that is! ^^)
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Y'know, I'm an idiot. It just occurred to me that part of the premise of this thread is that the PCs already have the equivalent of two mythic tiers and are supposed to advance according to the Medium XP progression. So having them advance according to the Slow progression should be unnecessary, and indeed counterproductive...
It does mean one should really be circumspect about how many Mythic tiers are on offer though. Like the OP says, the PCs are "supposed" to have about the equivalent of two Mythic tiers. I would add that they should not gain more than three Mythic tiers total over the course of the campaign as written; tier 4 gives another +2 to an ability score, after all.
Actually I'd start them off with one Mythic Tier and then partway through let them get a second one. But that's just me. ^^;;
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Actually I'd start them off with one Mythic Tier and then partway through let them get a second one. But that's just me. ^^;;
I think we mean the same thing. Personally, I'd give the first Mythic tier after meeting the Black Rider and the second after getting Jadrenka's key. Artrosa meets the Playtest's qualifications of a greater trial: Jadrenka is cunning and omnipresent, though not quite a foe, the environment, particularly in the Crone, is inimical to life, and...I'm actually afb at the moment, so I don't remember the other qualification besides a Mythic foe (you only need three out of four), but I'm sure it's there.
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Just got to my books. The third element I believe to be present in Artrosa is Mysterious Forces. To wit: "Be it the influence of a god or the machinations of a powerful wizard [i.e. Baba Yaga], there should be mysterious forces at work behind the scene, manipulating events. This might take the form of strange messages delivered by innocuous animals [the ravens the PCs meet in the Dancing Hut are innocuous enough...until they speak], gifts from unknown agents, or even divine intervention. These forces let the PCs know that though they are truly powerful, there are other powers at work that might punish them if they do not tread carefully."
For reference, the other elements are Cunning Opposition and Impressive Environments. To wit, respectively: "The foes that the PCs face should be cunning. More than just simple monsters sitting in a specified room waiting to be defeated, foes should proactively oppose the PCs [Jadrenka is described as scrying on the PCs and following them around]. They should be working to defeat them, using the tools at hand to lethal effect." Again, Jadrenka isn't precisely a foe, but she will use lethal force against the PCs if they upset her.
"From deadly weather to grand, imposing dungeons [Artrosa is the latter, and is set among the former], the environment itself should lend a sense of importance to the adventure. Perhaps the dungeon is located behind one of the tallest waterfalls in the world and the PCs must venture there through a valley with impenetrable fog that whispers their doom. These fantastic touches make for a mythic environment."[/b]
It also helps that Artrosa is set up as a sort of trial by Jadrenka. She wants the PCs to prove their worth to Baba Yaga, and they do that by clearing the dungeon of Baba Yaga's enemies...and Jadrenka's. Dominating a region, and an adventure, as it does, Artrosa can be made, with minimal to no changes, into a place where the PCs can gain their second Mythic tier.
Meanwhile, the World Engine, which is designed to sap Mythic power from the Thrice-Tenth Kingdom, is an ideal place to give the PCs their third Mythic tier if you really want to do so. I'd personally refrain from it, but I'm pretty conservative about these sorts of things. I would introduce as much Mythic power as is necessary to replicate the Black Rider's mantle, and no more. But I digress. Here the elements are again Cunning Opposition (Rasputin) and Mysterious Forces (Rasputin again), but instead of the environment, the PCs are up against a Legendary Creature. "Creatures of myth and legend need stories that are part of the world [part of Paizo's justification for using Rasputin is that he is a figure around which a mythos and a body of literature have already been built...and he was that already in his own lifetime and shortly after]. Though they can be mythic, they don’t need to be to count as legendary. The dragon that has always lived under the mountain might qualify due to the stories that have grown about his terrible anger, even though he is not necessarily mythic." Imagine a PC boasting that they have ended a man whose life could not end, and you have imagined a Mythic PC.
Thank you. That is quite well thought out, and totally awesome reasoning.
Personally, I don't mind giving the group more than two Mythic Tiers, so long as it makes sense. I'm not going to push them to get all ten as there's no point; however, I might include a couple... interesting and high-powered monsters like a Jabberwocky near the end - though in the fight with Rasputin, or in the Hut remains to be seen. :)
I also would be willing to give several foes Mythic abilities. The first would be Ted Knotten - both as a hint as to what the Mythic tiers can do, and to suggest they ain't in Kansas anymore. ;) (It also works as the group had previously faced a Moss Troll as a random encounter. Ted obviously was going to be more potent anyway; a level of Fighter and making him a Mythic Savage Beast would do nicely.)
In the second book, there are a couple encounters where I might use Mythic foes. The first would be the initial encounter with the Winter Wolf. Given his hide is "special" it makes sense to give him a couple Mythic tiers to provide a story-reason behind this "specialness" - he was enhanced by Evanna in some way.
The other Mythic encounter I'm not as sure of. While it makes some sense for it to be the Witch they encounter protecting the Hut... as a storyteller it also makes sense to have the three Fae be the Mythic encounters. Given the PCs are already several levels above the average (having just reached level 4 with the already-upgraded fight at the hunting lodge), I'm not worried about having three Mythic encounters in a row. It would just make it an even fight.
I'm in full agreement on the Mythic aspect of Artosa. This is where they would gain their second Mythic Tier. Jadrenka would likely have Mythic Tiers; the Centaur would probably be another Mythic foe. I'm unsure if the Hags would be Mythic as well, but it may make some sense... and would also provide a bit of balance between Jadrenka and her mother.
The Fourth book... well, obviously the Dragon at the end would be a Mythic enemy. I'm hesitant as to providing Mythic foes for the fight leading up to this, as it isn't entirely clear which side the PCs would end up fighting for, especially if they shoot first rather than negotiate with a red dragon rider. ;) (Then again, this is my group we're talking about. They love taking the Fourth Option.)
Rasputin would be the obvious Mythic enemy in the Fifth book. Another possibility lies with our headless horseman leading the enemy... and perhaps the Chaplains.
And last, but not least, Elvanna herself would obviously need Mythic tiers. I was hoping to get the group close to 20th level through extra encounters and upgrading foes already. Having her with six Mythic Tiers or more would be the most effective method of ensuring she is a threat to the PCs. Of course, we won't know for another three weeks or so as to what else would be a potential Mythic foe. ^^;;
I'm curious as there is some mention of Mythic elements in the game concerning Baba Yaga herself if Paizo is also going to include any suggestions in the final book as to how to incorporate Mythic campaign rules into the Reign of Winter. While it would be too late for those groups that started playing early, it would be interesting to see for those groups that come afterward... or who decide to incorporate it partway into the campaign. After all, I'm sure I'm not the only one whose group is lucky to meet monthly! ^^;;
I'm currently running Reign of Winter with the mythic playtest rules (plus some tweaks of my own design). My party has just finished Snows of Summer. So far what I've been doing is roughly following the plot based level up guide at the start of each book and granting mythic tiers at what I see as serious progression to plot. I gave them the first tier as the Black Mantle's bonus (instead of the +2 to an ability score) and a 2nd tier for shutting down the portal at the Pale Tower.
I've had to upstat most encounters and have thrown several mythic foes at them to fight, both as by the book and random encounters. Some of the fights have been rather fun on both sides (such as Radosek using a combination of various mythic powers to basically evil eye most of the party in the surprise round)
I'm actually expecting Elvanna to already come with mythic tiers, as Inner Sea Magic indicates that Elvanna IS mythic - she's listed as "witch 20+", and that "+" is what denotes the various mythic casters, such as Baba Yaga, Arazni, Geb, Nex, Artokus, Kortash Khain, Sorshen, Tar-Baphon, Jatembe, and others.
As just a L20 witch, Elvanna would have her work cut out for her to top the craziness of Rasputin. In my experience, witches really work better as support than as direct opponents.
Now, a witch with mythic tiers? That might really make a party with 9th level spells (pretty sure they're expected to have those by the time they face Elvanna) still go "oh s+** oh s+&$ oh s+~@"
My own RoW game won't start until next year (the group I'll run it for is currently either 1/2 way or 1/3rd of the way through a home brew campaign; I'm not sure), so I very much will have the option to look at incorporating mythic into it.
Man, that is suddenly incredibly tempting. I tend to ramp the hell out of encounters anyways.
I'm considering using rasputins death as the moment of ascension, he is the son of the witch queen after all. My current game is passed the black rider and so its a bit late for that. Also, by that time I would know what I think of the mythic rules and the ending of the AP, since it will probably be a while until book 5.
If you're not past Book 3, you could use that as the moment of ascension.
As in the end of book 2? When they first use the hut?
No, I mean Artosia itself. Zimmerwald explains it nicely.
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I'm going to be using the mythic rules when I run RoW, likely with the young characters rules from Ucam (without the class restrictions) to enhance the fairy tale theme. Some good ideas here, dotting for future reference.
Perhaps, without changing the above mythic power levels, fluff it so that the White and Red Riders' mantles jump to the party when they find their corpses at the Hut, and then either have customized mythic powers based on the three mantles or just fluff their powers' effects for Day, Night, or Twilight based on the players' preferences?
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Question: how do you think you'll deal with the Mythic Flaw and the Geas-plus-curse that's "supposed" to come with the Black Rider's mantle? Does the Geas replace the standard flaw? Does the standard flaw replace the Geas? Do they coexist?
Personally, again, I come at this problem from the standpoint of "how can I best replace the Black Rider's mantle as it appears in Snows of Summer with Mythic tiers". So I would probably replace the standard flaw with the Geas and leave it at that. But what do you think?
The geas is optional, according to the book. And I've given my players all material weakness (cold iron) as a flaw.
Actually there is a good way of simulating the Geas. Have the powers slowly fade if they go off doing something else. If they're crafting items or the like, that's fine. It's likely to help free Baba Yaga. But if it's teleporting to Florida in 1918 to try out new locales? ;)
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Actually there is a good way of simulating the Geas. Have the powers slowly fade if they go off doing something else.
What you're describing sounds like the Dependency Mythic flaw: "Select one specific type of food or drink (other than water). If you do not ingest the selected food or drink at least once per day, you begin to lose your mythic powers. After the first day of absence, you can no longer regain points of mythic power. After the second day, you lose all the powers and abilities granted by your mythic paths. After the third day, you lose all of your mythic abilities, with the exception of ability score increases and bonus mythic feats. Your powers and abilities are immediately restored as soon as you consume the selected food or drink." Replace "ingest the selected food or drink" with "work towards finding and freeing Baba Yaga". The problem is that the curse is rather more debilitating than that. It affects the PCs' ability scores, which Dependency does not do. In fact, assuming the PCs have their second Mythic tier by the point they wander off the path, they're still getting a net benefit out of their Mythic tiers (in the form of a +2 bonus to an ability score) for just about no cost. Baba Yaga doesn't give something for nothing.
So I'd just include the loss of ability scores first. Even if that's not normally under Dependency.
While I've not yet received the hard copy for Mythic Adventures, I do have the PDF and the revised rules do seem better suited for these plans. I especially like how they adjusted Mythic Initiative so it's not nearly as broken as it had been.
One thing I did consider was to only provide the Mythic tiers to the PCs; neither GMPC will be getting any Mythic abilities. I have a couple of reasons for this, but the primary one is this: the PCs are the primary heroes for this campaign. Even though the GMPCs are very convenient and useful for the group (and will continue to be so - heck, an Undead Scourge would do quite well in several parts of the game, should he live long enough), the PCs are the Heroes. As such, they're the ones who should be Mythic. Not the sidekicks.
Looking at the Mythic Trials, I think the first Mythic Trial is the recovery of Baba Yaga's Hut. It makes sense thematically. Thus at the end of The Shackled Hut, the PCs should gain their second Mythic Tier. (In theory, I suppose closing the Winter Portal could count as well but I'm not quite sure that has quite the impact that reaching the Hut has.)
The next two trials would be Artosia and Rasputin. Upon Rasputin's defeat (and he'll have several Mythic Tiers) I'm thinking the PCs should achieve their third Mythic Tier. (If the closure of the Winter Portal is the first Trial, then Artosia and Rasputin would still work for the fourth Tier as you only have two trials for Tiers 3 and 4.)
The PCs can achieve a fifth Tier (and perhaps even a sixth) in the final book while working to free Baba Yaga.
Thoughts?
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Hmmm. Yeah, any NPCs who get extended the mantle shouldn't be mythic; they should just get +2 to a stat and/or something nifty (like Greta would get alternate form).
I plan to give the first tier when the mantle is given.
2nd tier - removing the hut's shackles
3rd tier - victory at Artrosia (I plan on making the centaur BBEG mythic, since he's very much a larger-than-life figure)
4th tier - victory over Yrax, Lord of the Howling Storm (who will be mythic; debating making General Malesinder mythic)
5th tier - victory over Rasputin, who will of course by mythic
6th tier - releasing Baba Yaga, and successfully negotiating with her. If the party attacks Dear Grandmother before the Mantle's lifted, she may well strip them of all mythic power and smite them. But once the Mantle's lifted, the PCs' powers are finally and truly theirs. Elvanna will be a mythic adversary, of course.
I want mythic enemies to show up slightly more often than once a book; just a matter of deciding who should have it.
As the player who was granted the Black Riders Mantle is now a chipmunk...Baleful Polymorph from Elvanna...do I have a Mythic Chipmunk at tier one?
The other players are quite miffed with him for defending Dear Grandmother by climbing up the mages breeches and biting him repeatedly in the...groin.
I'd like to have him survive some player payback without just DM handwave.
Over the weekend I began writing up notes on how I'm going to handle the AP. I am not only inserting mythic, but also adapting to an E8 setting, so I've got a lot of work to do.
Paraphrasing from my notes, as they're at home and I can't get at them right now:
- I'm going to use fiat for both leveling & gaining tiers, rather than paying close attention to XP or trials.
- At root, all mythic power in this campaign will come from Baba Yaga; granted by her, inherited from her, and so on.
- A first-generation descendant of Baba Yaga is mythic. I think that second generation will have a touch of it; not a full tier, but Hard To Kill and perhaps a couple of surges. All descendants have the potential for mythic power, but it takes involvement in mythic events to awaken that.
- The first brush with mythic will be Teb Knotten & Izoze each having mythic rank, via a simple template.
- Ascension is the Black Rider imparting his mantle to the PCs; the PCs will gain some of the mythic power he was granted by the Baba Yaga in return for service.
- I may give Radosek a bit of mythic power to make him more of a challenge; more likely to just add a mythic guardian of some sort at the Pale Tower.
- Due to the E8 nature of the setting, the party will be at most level 3 upon completing The Snows of Summer.
- Nazhena will be mythic. As a descendant of Baba Yaga, she has the potential, and her involvement in the Winter Portals awakened that.
- The party will gain a second tier upon accessing the Dancing Hut and establishing their bona fides. Again due to E8, the party will be at most 5th level here.
- Jadrenka and a few key members of Vsevolod's forces will be mythic, empowered by Baba Yaga as a guardian or by her own mythic foes.
- Claiming the keys from Jadrenka and the Eon Pit will net the party a third tier, and 7th level.
- I will largely be skipping The Frozen Stars. I like the adventure, but it doesn't fit the themes of my setting well, and removing it simplifies my work. I expect to rewrite the mercane's part so as to provide a merchant to the party, but I haven't decided how yet.
- Since my world is Earth, Rasputin Must Die! involves time travel, which is part of why the second key is in the Eon Pit, rather than carried by Vsevolod. I may also make the Eon Pit a nexus of time, removing the aging effect.
- The party will gain one or two tiers of additional mythic power, as well as hitting 8th level and gaining some "epic" feats during Rasputin Must Die! Rasputin will be the most mythic foe they've faced so far; already mythic as the son of Baba Yaga, his work with the World Engine and the Thrice-Tenth Kingdom has boosted this power.
- Delving into the Baba Yaga's legends within the Hut during the Witch Queen's Revenge will result in further tier increase, but no higher than 8th tier, as well as a few more rounds of "epic" feats.
- Elvanna will be quite mythic as well.
- At the end of the campaign, whether the PCs retain their mythic power depends upon the Baba Yaga. If they oppose her, she'll strip it away as trivially as she ended Elvanna's ritual. If they agree to serve as her new riders, they'll definitely keep it (and more). She may even allow them to keep the power as a reward for their assistance. Even without mythic power, the party will be among the mightiest in the world (and I'll not strip away the stat bonuses, at least). As this is the end of the campaign, I'm not too worried about reactions to giving up the power.
I'm passed the white tower, and honestly wish mythic rules were finished a month ago. :( I may have the hut be the ascension point, but I may also just have releasing baba yaga be ascension. As I plan on creating a campaign to get them to ml10/20)
To be honest, Necrovox, the "after campaign" suggestions suggest just that: in trying to shut down Baba Yaga's Winter Portals which keep Irrisen cold, the PCs will gain several Mythic levels. Eventually they can shut down the main gate to Irrisen and maybe even go after Baba Yaga herself.
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Nothing says the Mythic powers HAVE to come from the Mantle... I'm toying with a different approach. If you're interested, check out my post in the Maiden, Mother, Crone thread here >> Mythic Trial
I was playing with the idea of using a mythic tier instead of the mantle and the geas (which I don't like at all) too, but, to be honest, after checking out the actual Mythic Adventures rules, it seems to me that a group of character with even one mythic tier will be ridiculously overpowered and will easily steamroller over the rest of what's to come. Too bad.
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I was playing with the idea of using a mythic tier instead of the mantle and the geas (which I don't like at all) too, but, to be honest, after checking out the actual Mythic Adventures rules, it seems to me that a group of character with even one mythic tier will be ridiculously overpowered and will easily steamroller over the rest of what's to come. Too bad.
That's exactly why I want to test drive it first and see how much extra work it will involve to carry through the rest of the AP. My group is already more powerful then the AP is designed for, and I have been adjusting here and there to account for that (all enemies get max HPs, I have increased numbers of fodder enemies, increased terrain obstacles, and advanced some of the bigger badguys)...
Zaister, there's a simple solution: Max out the hit points for the mundane encounters, and for Boss Encounters you can provide THEM with a Mythic Tier (or even just a couple of levels).
Each Mythic Tier is the equivalence to 1/2 a level. So a group of four players with average stats (ie, 15-point build is considered "average") and average hit points will not be overpowered.
If your characters have high or epic stats and above-average hit points, then yes they will steamroller what is to come. But that will happen despite Mythic Tiers if the players optimize their characters.
And there's ways around that, like encouraging players to take non-combat Feats and crafting a well-rounded character that may not be optimal, but is still fun.
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Thoughts?
I don't think the acquisition of the Dancing Hut by itself is enough to advance the PCs a Mythic Tier. After all, people as diverse as Ratibor, Vasilisa and Kostchtchie found their way to the Hut. Ratibor did not become Mythic thereby. Kostchtchie did, though well after the fact and by virtue of becoming a demon lord, not by virtue of anything he did in or with the Hut. Pharasma knows what became of Vasilisa. I think we have to look to the adventure the same way we did for Artrosa in Maiden, Mother, Crone to see if that adventure has enough elements of a Mythic trial.
To recap, here is what made Artrosa a suitable place for a Mythic trial, in the terms Mythic Adventures (as opposed to the playtest) uses. Jadrenka is a cunning [not-quite-]foe. She is a presence throughout Artrosa, can help or hinder the PCs, and most tellingly has the express purpose of putting the PCs through a trial. To allude to Phelan's point above, if all Mythic power in Reign of Winter comes from Baba Yaga, then as Baba Yaga's servant Jadrenka is in a good position to dispense some small portion of Mythic power. Artrosa looks and feels physically impressive. From outside, it looks like the Argonath; giant figures dominating the landscape, an unmistakable symbol of the power and majesty of their builder. As an aside, for all that people say about the low-power nature of Middle Earth, I think low-level/mid-tier (say, L6/T6 or thereabouts) very aptly describes people like Gil-Galad, Elendil, and Isildur. To enter one must be attuned to a fundamental cycle of nature, the lunar cycle, with all the connections to menstruation that implies (and let's be frank, it comes up often in Myth). One must be prepared to experience the cycle of life literally as a Mythic hero experiences it metaphorically. Surviving the Eon Pit - literally the place that brings you to death - can be thought of as returning from the underworld. Artrosa is a nexus of otherworldly influence, from Baba Yaga's more general interest in the place to the artifact and guardian she left behind to the machinations of people like Vsevolod who attempt to pervert it to the interest of some other otherworldly power. To this it could also be added that Vsevolod and his svathurim are sufficiently legendary to fulfill that Mythic element as well.
The presence of Mythic elements is a little more dubious in The Shackled Hut. Just as we concerned ourselves with Artrosa when looking at Maiden, Mother, Crone, let us limit ourselves to what takes place in Whitethrone when looking at this adventure. The city's certainly content-rich enough. First, if it is a Mythic trial, it immediately becomes obvious that it is very different from Artrosa. Nazhena is alluded to, but her presence isn't really felt. She doesn't oppose the PCs so much as try to ferret out their identities, and given her position couldn't do much about the PCs even if she found out about them anyway. Whitethrone is visually impressive, but the PCs if they're smart won't be going to the Bone Road, or the Royal Palace, or any of the other grand landmarks. Most of the creatures the PCs face, including Nazhena and Logrivich, are par for the course for Irrisen; that's part of the point of the adventure, to show that Irrisen is Not a Nice Place(tm). The exception to this is the Dawn Pipers, and while they're different, I'm not sure they're legendary.
That said, there are Mythic elements here. Otherworldly influence is a big obvious one, and one that Whitethrone shares with Artrosa. From the endless winter whose heart lies in the Royal Palace, to the artifact Hut kept chained in the Market Square by an artifact manacle, the place is suffused with power "beyond the mortal realm" at least until the Hut leaves. The Hut creates a supernatural event around itself in the form of the forest about which the powers of Irrisen that so threaten the PCs can't do anything. The question is, is that enough?
I'm not sure it is. The playtest mandated that three elements be present for a trial, but Mythic Adventures is itself a little more liberal. "A Mythic adventure should contain some of these", it says, "though not necessarily all at once". Still, I think that three is a good baseline, and we should try to look for more if we can. I've already argued that Whitethrone as a Mythic trial does not contain cunning foes, impressive settings or legendary creatures but does contain otherworldly influence and supernatural forces. If we care about having three elements, therefore, we should ask whether Whitethrone as a trial (that is, not taken as a whole city, complete with level eighteen Duchess) contains powerful enemies or hard consequences, or both.
The enemies as written are not particularly powerful. To compare again with Artrosa, Jadrenka is CR 11, and as such would be a decent challenge for any conceivable party at any point in the adventure; I have trouble conceiving of a party that exceeds L10/T2 by the end of Maiden, Mother, Crone. She'd be a very difficult challenge when the party first encounters her at L8/T1 or L8/T2. Vsevolod and his svathurim are CR 12 together, and the svathurim is CR 11 by itself. Caigreal's coven together is a CR 11 encounter. Logrivich, meanwhile, is CR 6, and thus a level-appropriate encounter...in fact, he might be a little weak against a party of L6/T1s. Nazhena and her golem together are a CR 8 encounter, and are thus a decent challenge against a party of L6/T1s. A GM can obviously advance these encounters to be more powerful and thus fulfill the three-element standard, but as written I get the impression that these are meant to be challenges relatively on par with the PCs, not overwhelming encounters. They're challenging important figures, but figures nowhere near the heights of the regime.
The PCs do have to face consequences as a result of their actions; the Iron Guard is probably wiped out by the end of the adventure, and Elvanna's power is more consolidated than ever. The question is, is this a hard consequence? Can the PCs live easily with this on their conscience? I think they could. They have no reason to care much about the Winter Guard. They may serve Baba Yaga, but they're not necessarily loyal to her and they have no special reason to love her jack-booted thugs any more than they do Nazhena's or Elvanna's jack-booted thugs. They have a much greater attachment, theoretically, to the Heralds, but the Heralds are far more likely to ride out the repression than the Iron Guard is. Solveig is a shrewd revolutionary, and is more than happy to send the Iron Guard to its Spartacus Week while keeping her own organization intact. The Heralds know, after all, that the Iron Guard's uprising is premature and doomed to failure. They thus will not actually get involved, and will instead watch as one of their enemies destroys another, keeping their heads down all the while and trusting the PCs to bring Elvanna down so they are left with all their enemies weakened. To imagine that the PCs face hard consequences presumes that either the Heralds are not shrewd and that Solveig prefers being Rosa Luxemburg to being Alexandra Kollontai, or that they do care about the Iron Guard for some reason.
All in all, it's a fine line whether The Shackled Hut contains a potential Mythic trial as written or not. I'm not sure where I come down on the issue yet, and will return to it. I suspect my opinion is going to come down to how many other Mythic trials I can find in the AP.
I agree that both Artrosa and Akuvskaya Monastery can be looked at very easily as Mythic trials. I've already rehashed why I see Artrosa that way, and Akuvskaya's mythic qualities are both similar and patently obvious. Together with the collection of Baba Yaga's essence culminating in the defeat of Elvanna, that's three Mythic trials. Together with the moment of ascension thanks to the Black Rider, the PCs should reach tier 3 by the end of the adventure. To reach Tier 4, they'd need two more trials. Acquiring the Hut could be one, but what of the other? If acquiring the Hut is problematic in terms of being a Mythic trial, then I hope it's clear that closing the Winter Portal obviously would be. Is there a trial to be found in The Frozen Stars? Yrax is certainly very powerful, and through the person of Malesinder he is present and influencing events throughout the book. Dragons are also legendary and iconic creatures and dragonslaying a legendary and iconic feat, especially on Triaxus. The Skyfire Mandate has build a Mythology around the first and last to die in the war that created it (it is said that the bodies of the dragonkin form the hills). Both Spurhorn and Ivoryglass are visually impressive fortresses on the order of the one described in Mythic Adventures. The battle has hard consequences for the PCs in almost any circumstance. If they side with the Drakelands, they are betrayed. If they side with the Skyfire Mandate and lose, people they care about suffer because of their failure. If they side with no one, they get to have the fact that they could have made a difference on their conscience. The only time they don't necessarily have a hard consequence is if they fight for the Skyfire Mandate and win, and even then they might lose people they care about because of the choices they made. That's an elegant series of five trials over the course of the AP, one per book after Snows of Summer, that ends with the PCs gaining a tier after releasing Baba Yaga...which is, I think, as it should be.
Overall, I'd plot the following course over the AP:
The PC's moment of ascension comes when the Black Rider passes on his mantle (incidentally, the Three Riders should be restatted to have one Mythic tier each).
The PCs complete a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 2 upon claiming the Dancing Hut.
The PCs complete a Mythic trial upon gaining Jadrenka's trust and the two keys of Artrosa.
The PCs complete a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 3 upon defeating* Yrax and gaining the key of Ivoryglass.
The PCs complete a Mythic trial upon killing Rasputin and gaining Baba Yaga's matryoshka doll prison.
The PCs complete a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 4 upon killing Elvanna and releasing Baba Yaga.
This has the advantage of replicating the effects of the Black Rider's mantle (a +2 bonus to one ability score) throughout the course of the AP as written, without too much more added on. The PCs' APL should be about 1 higher than their level after The Shackled Hut, which shouldn't be too game-breaking (YMMV). Continuing the campaign, the PCs having four Mythic tiers lines up elegantly with a plot around six Winter Collectors, the destruction of each granting another Mythic tier before the PCs take on Baba Yaga and return to Whitethrone to destroy the Winter Controller. The only thing I'm not happy with is that the PCs don't advance in tier after winning Jadrenka's trust or killing Rasputin. While The Frozen Stars as a whole is a nice trial, it isn't as well-connected to Baba Yaga as the other chapters, and I would have preferred it if the PCs advanced at more thematic points. One alternative would be to not count The Frozen Stars as a trial and to instead have the PCs complete two trials during The Witch Queen's Revenge, but that comes with its own problems. Namely, if recovering Baba Yaga's whole essence isn't the trial, as it is now, then which part besides the Blood do you value over the others? Maybe finding her death on Buyan...but it just doesn't feel right. Better, I feel, to stick with one trial per book.
Another alternative would be to just fiat that the PCs advance in tier after killing Rasputin even though they had the "right" to advance after defeating Yrax. That is, they'd still have the five trials in the same places, but for purposes of this campaign, it would take them three trials to advance to Tier 3 and one trial to advance to Tier 4.
*I use "defeating" here and "killing" below to acknowledge that killing Rasputin and Elvanna is important to the plot, while killing Yrax is not. Without killing Rasputin, the PCs shouldn't be able to recover the matryoshka doll. Without killing Elvanna, the PCs shouldn't be able to free Baba Yaga from it.
I'd plot the Trials a little differently. For one thing, the entire Hut itself in the final AP is a series of Trials. For another, I am contemplating whether the fight to close the Winter Portal is itself a Trial. It may very well fit as it's in an Otherworldly environment with a goal that is quite heroic and sacrificial at the same time: the PCs will be stranded in Irrisen and be unable to return to Heldren without a long long journey... and have other threats to consider instead. It's part of the Mythic Journey itself. The final foe can be increased in power (as can Nazhena in the next adventure!) to be a true and worthy threat to the PCs.
Ivoryglass is another Mythic environment and Yrax is a worthy foe for a Mythic Trial in my opinion. I'll be beefing him up with Mythic Tiers, but I'll be modifying the module in any event as my PCs went into it with several levels. ;) (In essence my group is nearly at the level they'd have been in WotR when THOSE characters get Mythic power.)
While I'm not going to do the Winter Controller adventure, I don't think destroying the Winter Collectors would give a Tier each. Those are just Trials.
I'm pretty much ignoring the explicit trials, and taking that more as a guideline on designing mythic portions of adventures.
In my context, the riders have multiple mythic tiers, but between the splitting of the mantle across the party and the PCs not having spent years inhabiting the mantle already, the PCs get one each when they get the mantle.
The reason my PCs will get a second tier upon claiming the Hut is that they're effectively bathing in a font of the Baba Yaga's power. Entering the Hut wouldn't get people a tier normally. But people who are mythic due to drawing on the same power the Hut draws upon, and have not reached their potential? That makes more sense.
Since I'm making Nazhena mythic as well, in a sense we could see the entire trip from the Winter Portal, to the Pale Tower, to Whitethrone, and finally the Hut, as a trial.
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I'd plot the Trials a little differently. For one thing, the entire Hut itself in the final AP is a series of Trials.
Ah, that's where you had me confused. I had no idea where the PCs were getting fifth and sixth Tiers from. But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to make every attempt at a portion of Baba Yaga's essence a Trial. Claiming her Fate, for instance, is comparatively easy and not really all that dangerous. I'm open to being convinced, and maybe I'm biased towards low-Mythic for this campaign, but as of now I'd run the whole of The Witch Queen's Revenge as one long trial, where completing Baba Yaga's essence also completes the trial.
For another, I am contemplating whether the fight to close the Winter Portal is itself a Trial. It may very well fit as it's in an Otherworldly environment with a goal that is quite heroic and sacrificial at the same time: the PCs will be stranded in Irrisen and be unable to return to Heldren without a long long journey... and have other threats to consider instead. It's part of the Mythic Journey itself. The final foe can be increased in power (as can Nazhena in the next adventure!) to be a true and worthy threat to the PCs.
By that standard the fight to escape the Zirnakaynin in Second Darkness ought to be a Mythic trial. It contains the same elements: a strange environment and a choice to depart from home via strange magic. And maybe it ought to be. The difference between Second Darkness and Reign of Winter is that the former was written without any inkling as to the potential or applicability of Mythic rules (heck, Pathfinder itself was a twinkling in the dev team's eye), while as Neil Spicer has demonstrated, the writers for Reign of Winter had Mythic potential in the backs of their minds even before Adam Daigle made the possibility explicit in The Witch Queen's Revenge. I made this point above, and in retrospect I should have given more weight to it: rather than trying to make Mythic trials, I would proceed by trying to divine what the writers could reasonably have meant to be Mythic trials, hewing towards "this could not reasonably have been meant to have been a Mythic trial".
Again as I said above, the "mundane" encounters in Irrisen, that is, the things anybody could encounter in Irrisen if they were stupid enough, like white dragons, witches, and winter, just don't scream "Mythic" to me. Irrisen, after all, is meant to be a place where normal people can live out their lives, albeit under an oppressive and cruel regime. It is not the Worldwound or the Isle of Fear or the Mordant Spire. So storming the Pale Tower or the Clock Tower don't feel like Mythic trials to me. Even claiming the Hut itself teeters on the edge of the line.
Ivoryglass is another Mythic environment and Yrax is a worthy foe for a Mythic Trial in my opinion. I'll be beefing him up with Mythic Tiers, but I'll be modifying the module in any event as my PCs went into it with several levels. ;) (In essence my group is nearly at the level they'd have been in WotR when THOSE characters get Mythic power.)
The thing about Yrax, Jadrenka, and Rasputin, and I alluded to this when I talked about the writers having Mythic in the backs of their minds, is that even presented as they are, characters with Mythic tiers should still find them a challenge. Yrax is a CR 14 threat by himself, and is thus a powerful challenge for either the L12/T2 PCs (APL 13) against which my scheme would pit him, or the L12/T3 PCs* (also APL 13) against which yours, most liberally construed, would pit him. He is, to me, more obviously meant to be the culmination of a Mythic trial than, say, Radosek, though he does have his animated dragon going for him.
*If I have your scheme right, the PCs advance thusly:
The PCs' moment of ascension is their assumption of the Mantle of the Black Rider.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 2 upon defeating Radosek and closing the Winter Portal.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon claiming the Dancing Hut.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 3 upon gaining Jadrenka's trust and the keys of Artrosa.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon defeating Yrax and gaining the keys of Triaxus.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 4 upon killing Rasputin and claiming Baba Yaga's matryoshka doll prison.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon gaining the trust of Vigliv and being granted the thread of Baba Yaga's fate.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon killing Mametqul and using his head and Bremagyr's crown to release Baba Yaga's power.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 5 upon using Baba Yaga's athame to release her death.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial by carving out the hearts of the twelve Crone Queens and boiling them in the samovar to release Baba Yaga's life.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial by killing Elvanna and using her blood to free Baba Yaga.
There is some merit to this scheme. It is undoubtedly higher-power than mine, but that only starts to matter during The Witch Queen's Revenge, throughout which the PCs gain stat boosts of various kinds anyway (like the Mantle, I believe these stat boosts should be replaced with Mythic tiers if each piece of essence is a trial, rather than being augmented with Mythic tiers). It grants the PCs their second tier, and thus replicates the Black Rider's mantle as presented in the adventure, as early as possible. It preserves Artrosa and Akuvskaya as places where the PCs actually advance a Tier, rather than intermediate trials. Though you won't use it, a plot around the Winter Collectors, seeing each as one trial would put the PCs at tier 7 by the time they get to the Winter Controller.
However, it does have some problems. As I've been arguing, the trials in Irrisen are dubious to me, though again please don't take this to mean I'm not open to being convinced (actually, looking at the scheme in its entirety, it looks elegant for most of the AP, which makes me a little more amenable to the individual trials). More importantly, the PCs don't advance a tier after killing Elvanna, which is just disappointing. I suppose wheedling a boon out of Baba Yaga could count as another trial, but that just feels like a cheap two-for-the-price-of-one solution. The boon is meant to be special in itself, and carries no XP story awards the way opening the matryoshka doll layers does. Is there a solution to this?
While I'm not going to do the Winter Controller adventure, I don't think destroying the Winter Collectors would give a Tier each. Those are just Trials.
I'm not sure that's true. Here's what the adventure says on the matter: "successfully destroying a winter collector should be a trial worthy of gaining a mythic tier." There are a couple of ways to interpret that. The first is yours: destroying a Winter Collector is a singular trial, plain and simple. This is buttressed by the fact that at tier 1, destroying a Winter Collector would be enough to grant the PCs another tier. But another is this: the PCs should gain a Mythic tier after destroying a Winter Collector, and may have to pass multiple trials to do it. One of the things the Continuing the Campaign section is meant to do is elevate the PCs so that they can conceivably challenge Baba Yaga (i.e., they should be L20/T10, APL 25 at that point, possessed of artifacts and such) in order to cater to players who felt unsatisfied by the AP's conclusion. Bearing in mind that the moment of ascension assumed by the Continuing the Campaign section is the collection of Baba Yaga's fate and the breaking of the matryoshka doll, that would take twenty-nine trials. It strains credulity to me that the PCs would even bother, considering that six is enough to destroy the Winter Controller. It also strains credulity that Baba Yaga would let the PCs get away with this. She might miss six Collectors. No way she'd miss twenty-nine. What's more, the destruction of each Collector is meant to be an adventure in and of itself, possibly as long as an AP chapter. What GM would wish the extra work on himself (an aside, I see why you don't want to run with this plot; given your conception of the Collectors as one trial each, even with the Mythic advancement during the AP, developing nineteen adventures, the amount of trials the PCs need to get to tier 10 from tier 5 plus two trials, around destroying them would be a job and a half)? No, the clear intent to me is one Collector = one tier.
That's actally what I was going to do (replace Baba Yaga's gifts with the benefits of the Tier), which is why I was going to have the Fifth Tier upon carving out the hearts of the twelve Crone Queens (though the athame also works for this).
I figure five Mythic Tiers isn't too bad, and it allows me to upgrade Elvanna to having eight or nine Mythic Tiers so she'll be a suitable threat without being as powerful as Baba Yaga.
As for the Winter Controllers... I'm not going to continue the game after they finish Reign of Winter. I'll likely start a new campaign for Wrath of the Righteous.
As for what they get for killing Elvanna? Well, they free Baba Yaga and she'll grant them one desire. It might not be a Mythic Tier or anything... but it's still a reward and in some ways is more potent than just another Tier.
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That's actally what I was going to do (replace Baba Yaga's gifts with the benefits of the Tier), which is why I was going to have the Fifth Tier upon carving out the hearts of the twelve Crone Queens (though the athame also works for this).
No, I think you've got it right here, because as I said when arguing against each element of Baba Yaga's essence being a trial, I don't think gaining the trust of Vigliv, and the thread of Baba Yaga's fate, is difficult enough to really be a trial. If it's eliminated from the progression, the PCs in your scheme advance thusly:
The PCs' moment of ascension is their assumption of the Mantle of the Black Rider.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 2 upon defeating Radosek and closing the Winter Portal.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon claiming the Dancing Hut.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 3 upon gaining Jadrenka's trust and the keys of Artrosa.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon defeating Yrax and gaining the keys of Triaxus.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 4 upon killing Rasputin and claiming Baba Yaga's matryoshka doll prison.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon killing Mametqul and using his head and Bremagyr's crown to release Baba Yaga's power.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial upon using Baba Yaga's athame to release her death.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial and advance to Tier 5 by carving out the hearts of the twelve Crone Queens and boiling them in the samovar to release Baba Yaga's life.
The PCs pass a Mythic trial by killing Elvanna and using her blood to free Baba Yaga.
I figure five Mythic Tiers isn't too bad, and it allows me to upgrade Elvanna to having eight or nine Mythic Tiers so she'll be a suitable threat without being as powerful as Baba Yaga.
I probably won't be doing this for various reasons. Number one is verisimilitude. If Elvanna had eight or nine Mythic tiers, she'd be a threat to the world on a par (or greater!) with Tar Baphton and should have provoked more of a reaction from other powers before now. Heck, if she's meant to be on par with her sisters, the Winter War and Jadwiga's enthronement should have provoked something along the lines of the Shining or Mendevian Crusades as soon as Baba Yaga left. But also, any PCs I run through Reign of Winter will be starting at level one, unlike yours, so I will have to do much less upgrading throughout the AP even going with your scheme for Mythic advancement. My hypothetical PCs would end up being L17/T5 even using your scheme, and would thus be APL 19 facing a CR 20 Elvanna. No upgrading required. I'd imagine your PCs will be something like L19/T5 (APL 21) when fighting Elvanna, who will thus need some upgrading.
Oh, I figure she didn't initially have those Tiers. But she's had a while to go through Baba Yaga's Hut and very likely gained a Mythic Tier or two just by working with Rasputin to capture Baba Yaga herself. Working to encase all of Golarion in a global ice age makes her a huge threat. And it'll allow for a more interesting final battle.
It also means she has a greater chance of being alive (if unconscious) when Baba Yaga is freed. I suspect the old crone might very well be tickled at having her daughter still alive... and while she'll likely strip the Mythic power from her daughter, I'd like to think that much like another daughter, Elvanna might end up exiled in another world where she can build up her own powerbase over time, free from the concerns of what will happen 100 years hence. ;)
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Oh, I figure she didn't initially have those Tiers. But she's had a while to go through Baba Yaga's Hut and very likely gained a Mythic Tier or two just by working with Rasputin to capture Baba Yaga herself.
This seems flimsy to me. One of 3.5/Pathfinder's virtues when it comes to world-building is that the NPCs play by the same rules as the PCs. As such, in order to get those eight or nine Mythic tiers, Elvanna would have to have had a moment of ascension and completed nineteen or twenty-three trials respectively. Assuming Elvanna did not have Mythic tiers before beginning her plan, where is she going to find those trials? The bits of the plan we know about - killing the White and Red Riders, imprisoning the Dancing Hut, imprisoning Baba Yaga, beginning the ice age ritual - seem sufficient to me for four tiers. Elvanna hasn't left her mark on much of Baba Yaga's hut that the PCs see: traces of her can be found in the Irrisen layout, in Grandmother's Cauldron, in the Cottage in the Dark Forest, and obviously in the Witch Queen's Kurgan. She hasn't actually affected anything in the Hut outside the Kurgan, but let's be generous and say she accomplished six trials while inside. That's six Mythic tiers total, being generous.
Working to encase all of Golarion in a global ice age makes her a huge threat.
It is possible to be a threat to large portions of the world without being Mythic. Karzoug and Allevrah are proof enough of that. And even after the ritual is complete, Elvanna is presented as primarily being a threat to Avistan, the nations of the south being able to resist her long enough for "a new group of heroes" to topple her.
And it'll allow for a more interesting final battle.
This is the best justification for advancing anything ever. That said, I'm not sure Elvanna needs to go to L20/T8 to be a credible threat to your PCs. I'll assume for a moment that they'll be L20/T5 (APL 22) themselves when facing her since if they start off more powerful than the path assumes, they'll finish off more powerful than the path assumes. Elvanna's CR could match their APL with just four Mythic tiers (19 from levels, 1 from wealth, 2 from tiers). She would be a challenging CR 23 with six tiers, a hard CR 24 with eight tiers, and so on. She would need to advance to tier 10 to be preserved as an epic encounter for your PCs, but if you're not concerned about her being an epic encounter and simply want a challenging one, then she doesn't need more than six tiers.
For PCs starting at level 1, however, and facing only the encounters as written (i.e., no Mythic tiers encountered in the adventure itself, except maybe when fighting Rasputin who has reason to have them, and leveling up when the AP suggests), they'll be L17/T5 at most when fighting Elvanna. That's APL 19. To preserve Elvanna as an epic encounter (CR 22) for those PCs, she only needs to be L20/T4 with PC wealth, and she's an above-APL threat even without Mythic tiers of her own. Advancing Elvanna to tier eight or nine is great for your campaign, but not so much for other campaigns, even those incorporating your scheme for Mythic advancement in its entirety.
It also means she has a greater chance of being alive (if unconscious) when Baba Yaga is freed. I suspect the old crone might very well be tickled at having her daughter still alive... and while she'll likely strip the Mythic power from her daughter, I'd like to think that much like another daughter, Elvanna might end up exiled in another world where she can build up her own powerbase over time, free from the concerns of what will happen 100 years hence. ;)
Sorry to be blunt, but I hate this. Take the agency to deal with Elvanna away from the PCs and give it to Baba Yaga, and IMO you're going to end up with dissatisfied PCs. This seems like even more of a hook to continue the campaign than the existing ending, but you don't want to continue the campaign!
Hmmm.
I'll just note -
1) Elvanna being mythic wouldn't necessarily put her on the "kill immediately" radar of the powers that be. In part because she's perhaps been discrete with her powers until very, very recently, and in part because until very, very recently she hasn't done anything that actually truly threatens her neighbors.
Right until she decided to turn the entire planet into an ice cube. I fully intent to play up the threat of that - that winters portals like that the one near Heldren are open all over the world, and rapidly expanding.
I have no qualms with putting Elvanna on even footing with the lady over in Sarkoris who opened the Worldwound (who's a witch 20/archmage 8).
2) The Shining Crusade to oust Tar-Barphon didn't rev up until centuries after he'd conquered Ustalav. I'd assume any similar plans to purge Irrisen probably fell apart as soon as Dear Grandmother made it clear she's going to check in every 100 years.
Also, Elvanna being mythic would make the powers that be even MORE reluctant to mess with her - for example, see Geb.
Nearly all of Elvanna's sisters meekly accepted damnation at Mommy's hands. Most of the prior queens were strong, but only Tashanna - the one who was not claimed - seems worthy of making the breakthrough into mythic power.
I'll be playing with a 5 person party, 20 pt buy characters, so I was expecting to buff Elvanna BEFORE I ever decided to make mythic a factor. My players routinely stomp encounters that are at APL or APL+1.
I have the same situation with Zhangar. And I think Rasputin and Elvanna will be Mythic, and I'm going to have them ascend when they free Baba Yaga. That way it will be a more memorable ascension point (end of AP) I then intend on going into a modified storyline of Witchwar Legacy, and then play with the conflicts between Kostchtchie (bringing back Vselvod) and dear grandmother. My trials I think will consist of: Succeeding to control Irrisen, shutting down the winter collectors (6?), destroying the Torc, killing Kostchtchie, killing Baba Yaga, controlling Jhuvumirak, controlling the Thrice-Tenth Kingdom (which is where Rasputin got his mythic level). Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?