Goblin Squad Member
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I've briefly discussed in another topic the idea of a peace rating mechanic. Here I intend to go into great detail about what that is, and how it could work
(Well hopefully something!)
The flavor of peace: As you will see as I go into further detail the peace rating system has a lot of flavor attached to it. It can allow for some very interesting characters, grant a lot of utility to the diplomacy and intimidate skills, and generally offer a unique approach to combat never before seen in an MMO.
I can't control this crowd!: MMO's are commonly filled with mechanics such as daze and root that give very powerful crowd control, which is broken as soon as the target takes damage. This works well in MMO's where it's team A vs. team B and no friendly fire is allowed. In the unrestricted environment of PFO allies will quickly and easily break each other out of such conditions. The peace mechanic offers a much deeper crowd control system which involves a lot more effort to use, and to break.
(Don't hurt me... no more...)
Making your peace: Certain skill will be able to raise someone's peace rating. These would be things like diplomacy skills vs. intelligent creatures (including players) whose language you can speak. Handle animal skills vs. animals and beasts. And spells that can be used against anything (Unless otherwise specified).
Rate my peace: The peace rating is a measure of how prone toward violence your character is. Default is 0, which means you are ready to smash faces. As people use abilities that increase your peace level you can progress through the peace ratings.
0 = No effect.
25 = Decreased attack speed.
50 = Decreased attack speed and damage output.
75 = Decreased attack speed and damage output, rage and some other aggressive abilities blocked.
100= Unable to use any aggressive abilities, or buffs that enhance aggression, can still move and use non-aggressive abilities/buffs.
101-150= Same effect as 100, simply a buffer.
There are also abilities that can only target, or have additional effects on targets with a high peace rating. For instance "Lay down your weapon" could be a diplomacy based ability that disarms an opponent with a 75+ peace rating.
The highest rating most players can push someone to is 125 unless they have taken a vow of pacifism which will be explained later.
The speed at which someone's peace rating increases is lowered the higher it gets. So it is much harder to push someone from 75 to 100 than from 0 to 25.
Peace rating naturally decreases over time. It is also lowered any time the target takes damage. The rate of the decrease is very dependent on how close the target is to 100% health. A target at 100% health will lose peace rating very slowly. At 25% health and lower they will lose it almost instantaneously.
Peace vs. "the law": While it would seem inspiring people to be peaceful would never break the law, that would make this mechanic very abusable. For that reason the following conditions should exist.
Abilities that add peace rating can only be used against targets you can legally attack unless you have the "snake-tongue" trait which I will explain further on.
Characters with the "snake-tongue" trait that use it against targets they aren't allowed to attack suffer criminal flagging / alignment hits as if they had attacked their target.
Aggressive / non-aggressive abilities An aggressive ability is any ability that does harm to a target, or enhances the ability of the target to do harm. This would include direct attacks, damage over time, most debuffs, weapon damage buffs etc. A non-aggressive ability is an ability that gives the target a positive effect they can't use to harm others, or debuffs the target's capacity to commit violence. These would be things such as healing, armor buffs, disarms, attack speed debuffs, etc.
(Where Miss Americas finally get what they wished for.)
Barbarian rage: This ability causes the target to lose peace rating very quickly, making barbarians a great class for overcoming this kind of crowd control. However your peace rating reaches a certain point, you may no longer be able to activate it.
Snake tongue: Snake-tongue is a trait that allows peace abilities to be used against targets you normally couldn't use it against. When you think of a character with the snake-tongue ability think an evil advisor/diplomat who convinces people that they must accept something wrong, or that it isn't a threat to them. Wormtongue from Lord of The Rings is the perfect example, as was the brotherly embrace Asmodeus gave Ihys as he stabbed him. Some peace abilities (especially those associated with the good alignment) may be blocked to people with this trait active, but it may enable new and more sinister peace related abilities as well.
Intimidate / taskmaster: The intimidate tree comes with taskmaster abilities. These are abilities that remove peace rating or enhance the peace rating removed by damage. They may even give access to certain items and item enchantments such as the "taskmaster's whip" that aid in this end. Think of a taskmaster specced character standing in the back of their soldiers with a whip shouting "Fight harder!" and whipping those who don't comply.
Vow of pacifism: A character that takes the vow of pacifism can no longer use any agressive abilities. In exchange they are granted some serious enhancements to their peace abilities. Such as:
1. All peace abilities generate more peace.
2. Healing abilities that generate peace on their target.
3. Defensive buffs that lower the amount of peace a target can lose.
4. "Go in peace" target with 125 peace or higher is unable to attack players with VoP for 10 minutes, even if their peace rating falls back below 125.
5. Can raise peace level of players to 150.
VoP isn't a trait you turn on and off as you wish. Taking the vow should require a sacrifice. Breaking the vow should come with a cooldown (we're talking months) before you can take it again.
(Leave us the comments we can't do without!)
Please post thoughts, feedback, and any input on how you feel this system could be improved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Impressive write up Mr. Darkrender. I can't say that I am totally on board with it, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Pretty complex system if it can be broken just by taking damage. That is it's major weakness. Tremendous programing time to implement and would be best, integrated from the beginning of the combat design, no? Seems to have a lot of effects that are already (possibly) going to be available through spells.
If uninterrupted, how long would it take to get the rating from say "0" to "100"?
You are suggesting a combat situation mechanic, only, right? Not a "Superior Charm" power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would the target be aware that she is being pacified?
Yes. Infact my vision was that peace rating would be displayed by a white bar underneath the character's health bar so not only they, but everyone around them could see how pacified they were, allowing allies to whip them back into line, and letting enemies know to avoid damaging them.
This would have to be tested before implementing, but I was thinking peace would bleed off at a rate of about 25 per 20 seconds at 100% health. However sustained 75+ peace shouldn't be very viable unless the person maintaining it has VoP or there are multiple players doing so. Even at 100% health.
At 50% and lower health sustaining it should be near impossible even for a VoP character (Thus the heals and defensive buffs that increase peace / lower it's degeneration.)
PS. Peace is broken by damage but not easily. It's not like in other games where a light tap breaks it instantly. It isn't until they start taking notable damage that it quickly melts off. This makes it advantageous for teams to have characters using peace abilities against players the damage dealers are ignoring. Either they lose aggressive abilities or their own team will have to hurt them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well like all things in a PVP based MMO, the question of balance and counter measures must be discussed.
What is the reverse ability for this system?
Can someone have an Aggressor score, and have similar debuffs, roots and CCs as your proposed system?
Then there is the balance issue... Your proposed "skill" effects are way too powerful. At level 100, you can effectively stop someone from any aggressive act, including defending themselves, because earlier on in your post you addressed the issue of damage breaking CCs too easily.
The whole point in being a pacifist is to live it yourself, not force it upon others against their will. That is not pacifism, that is mind control or perhaps even enslavement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well like all things in a PVP based MMO, the question of balance and counter measures must be discussed.
What is the reverse ability for this system?
Snake tongue: Snake-tongue is a trait that allows peace abilities to be used against targets you normally couldn't use it against. When you think of a character with the snake-tongue ability think an evil advisor/diplomat who convinces people that they must accept something wrong, or that it isn't a threat to them. Wormtongue from Lord of The Rings is the perfect example, as was the brotherly embrace Asmodeus gave Ihys as he stabbed him. Some peace abilities (especially those associated with the good alignment) may be blocked to people with this trait active, but it may enable new and more sinister peace related abilities as well.
Intimidate / taskmaster: The intimidate tree comes with taskmaster abilities. These are abilities that remove peace rating or enhance the peace rating removed by damage. They may even give access to certain items and item enchantments such as the "taskmaster's whip" that aid in this end. Think of a taskmaster specced character standing in the back of their soldiers with a whip shouting "Fight harder!" and whipping those who don't comply.
Snake tongue would be the evil aligned counterpart. It would focus less on making the target harmless and more on breaking them out of their peaceful bliss with a "knife in the back" type attack. Though it would still gimp the offensive abilities while leading up to that.
Taskmaster abilities would be the ultimate counter. While anyone can break them out by dealing damage to them, taskmaster would allow you to break them out with much less or even no damage dealt depending on which abilities you use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would the target be aware that she is being pacified?Yes. Infact my vision was that peace rating would be displayed by a white bar underneath the character's health bar so not only they, but everyone around them could see how pacified they were, allowing allies to whip them back into line, and letting enemies know to avoid damaging them.
I certainly love these supposed "Good Guys". In the first round we had the Treaty of Rovagug, where they wanted to steal your freedom. Here we have another idea, that will steal your mind. I'm waiting for the ultra pious Cleric, who will want to steal your soul.
But, I'm the Chaotic Neutral or Evil guy, because I want to steal your gold! I'll leave you your freedom, your mind and your soul, that I will promise you. Maybe I'm the real good guy?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well like all things in a PVP based MMO, the question of balance and counter measures must be discussed.
What is the reverse ability for this system?
Snake tongue: Snake-tongue is a trait that allows peace abilities to be used against targets you normally couldn't use it against. When you think of a character with the snake-tongue ability think an evil advisor/diplomat who convinces people that they must accept something wrong, or that it isn't a threat to them. Wormtongue from Lord of The Rings is the perfect example, as was the brotherly embrace Asmodeus gave Ihys as he stabbed him. Some peace abilities (especially those associated with the good alignment) may be blocked to people with this trait active, but it may enable new and more sinister peace related abilities as well.
Intimidate / taskmaster: The intimidate tree comes with taskmaster abilities. These are abilities that remove peace rating or enhance the peace rating removed by damage. They may even give access to certain items and item enchantments such as the "taskmaster's whip" that aid in this end. Think of a taskmaster specced character standing in the back of their soldiers with a whip shouting "Fight harder!" and whipping those who don't comply.
Snake tongue would be the evil aligned counterpart. It would focus less on making the target harmless and more on breaking them out of their peaceful bliss with a "knife in the back" type attack. Though it would still gimp the offensive abilities while leading up to that.
Taskmaster abilities would be the ultimate counter. While anyone can break them out by dealing damage to them, taskmaster would allow you to break them out with much less or even no damage dealt depending on which abilities you use.
These are not reverses, these are counters, and as you say... they are still inhibited by the effects of the Peace rating, until the rating is broken. But, the counter only does that, it ends your debuff. It does nothing to debuff you in return.
I would say an Aggressor Rating would make the victim frozen with inaction, and or "mind controlled" to the extent that they give into what ever demand is made of them.
I want to be able to command them to "Unthread all of your gear, and hand it over".
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem then is multiplied.
It seems like a rough call to design a "Pacifier" character if his effect is so easily thwarted. Isn't a goodly majority of a party involved in direct melee (of some sort) in most conflicts?
I think it could be well worthwhile. A VOP character is the only character really dedicated to the role, and they are a lot harder to counter. But if a DPS and VOP character focused the same target they would just slow each other down.
More commonly you would have something like a rogue who took some diplomacy skills. They would use some powerful / low cooldown peace abilities on someone to get them off their back while they focused another target.
Would it be a single or multiple target affect?
Depends on the ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would the target be aware that she is being pacified?Yes. Infact my vision was that peace rating would be displayed by a white bar underneath the character's health bar so not only they, but everyone around them could see how pacified they were, allowing allies to whip them back into line, and letting enemies know to avoid damaging them.I certainly love these supposed "Good Guys". In the first round we had the Treaty of Rovagug, where they wanted to steal your freedom. Here we have another idea, that will steal your mind. I'm waiting for the ultra pious Cleric, who will want to steal your soul.
But, I'm the Chaotic Neutral or Evil guy, because I want to steal your gold! I'll leave you your freedom, your mind and your soul, that I will promise you. Maybe I'm the real good guy?
Yay! I'm a good guy now! That's news to me.
PS. The snake-tongue ability may indeed suit you very well!
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Goblin Squad Member
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These are not reverses, these are counters, and as you say... they are still inhibited by the effects of the Peace rating, until the rating is broken. But, the counter only does that, it ends your debuff. It does nothing to debuff you in return.
I would say an Aggressor Rating would make the victim frozen with inaction, and or "mind controlled" to the extent that they give into what ever demand is made of them.
I want to be able to command them to "Unthread all of your gear, and hand it over".
I feel the discussion of this should be separate. The peace system is a system useable by characters of all alignments, with functions built in to counter it.
I'm not against some intimidate based crowd control, but I don't feel it's needed to balance the proposed system.
If you're looking for a way for this to enhance your banditry, think of bandits using snake tongue on some of the merchant's guards while you kill the others. Then you bring the pacified guards back into the fight with the thrust of a knife.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But, I'm the Chaotic Neutral or Evil guy, because I want to steal your gold! I'll leave you your freedom, your mind and your soul, that I will promise you. Maybe I'm the real good guy?
If you take something from me you impede my freedom. If I give you something from fear of consequences you take a little of my soul.
You are not the "good guy". Nice try though. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you take something from me you impede my freedom. If I give you something from fear of consequences you take a little of my soul.
You are not the "good guy". Nice try though. ;)
I am taking from you out of concern that you may strain your back, hauling all of the heavy gold.
As for your soul, your materialism is already tarnishing your soul. I am merely trying to lead you down the path to salvation, way from greed and the other vices that greed often spawns.
Just think of me and my company as practitioners of preventative medicine and spiritual advisors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not put the effect on the defender; like sanctuary, they become harder or impossible to attack, but the effect ends if they take any hostile action.
To counter that, drop the person putting the effect on the target.
Because that would either be an insanely temporary ability or insanely OP. Plus it lacks all the fun and the flavor.
"Daddy, do we get to eat today?"
"I'm sorry but someone preaching the evils of materialism took all of our gold and grain. I would boil up some leather for you but they took that too...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still trying to get passed the disconnect this idea has with what PFO is supposed to be about.
Open World PVP = Non Consensual PVP. But, there are consequences for engaging in pvp with someone that is not flagged for pvp. There are also benefits for pvp vs. those that are flagged for pvp.
The point is not to stop aggressive behaviors, but to control them with carrot and stick.
Pacifists = Individuals who choose not to be aggressive themselves. They do not use attacks to thrust pacifism upon others.
If you limit my action, you have attacked me. It does not matter if it is via mind control, a debuff or a root / bind ability. It is still an attack.
If you are afraid to leave the safety of a settlement's walls, stay in doors. If Open World PVP, especially with non consensual triggers, is not to your liking then maybe PFO is not the game for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are afraid to leave the safety of a settlement's walls, stay in doors. If Open World PVP, especially with non consensual triggers, is not to your liking then maybe PFO is not the game for you.
While I am not really "all in" on the OP's idea, I also find things like this to be non constructive. Eldurian has been a genuinely humorous and clever poster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are afraid to leave the safety of a settlement's walls, stay in doors. If Open World PVP, especially with non consensual triggers, is not to your liking then maybe PFO is not the game for you.While I am not really "all in" on the OP's idea, I also find things like this to be non constructive. Eldurian has been a genuinely humorous and clever poster.
I disagree. The idea of this thread is a one sided argument, and when asked to provide the same ability from the opposite perspective, he avoided it. Instead he provided counters that still suffer from the debuffing effects of his attack and even if the counter is successful, it still leaves the affects of the pacifist attack unchanged.
The original idea is not constructive if it is one sided. It is also not constructive if it is obviously not an idea that would even be considered within the generally known concept of the game. It is as unlikely as GW giving us jet aircraft for transportation in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First: I fully realize that my own "typing fingers" are in no way clean, so I should just keep quiet.
Second: I thought that you were a proponent of not being overly critical since it is obvious that the Devs read these posts.
Third: (See the First) It is even less constructive to shoot down ideas just because you don't like them. Debate them, point out flaws, educate on previously written info, etc... Just doesn't seem right to suggest that "the game may not be right for you" or that they are afraid of PVP because they suggest an alternative PVP mechanic.
It isn't as though we aren't all guilty of suggesting things that are not going to be included. Or that we all don't love to expound on our own "pet projects", theories, and gripes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not overly critical to suggest that what someone hopes to find in this game is not there, and perhaps this us not the game for them.
Look at the other thread where the OP wants a structly defined and limiting class system and how he hated the direction that GW has gone in. Would you suggest that person stay anyway, even though the game is obviously not what they are looking for.
Even Ryan Dancey has said, "If you don' t like it, make your own game" on at least one occasion.
I'm not the least bit concerned about stating the obvious, and I'm not in the habit of encouraging known misconceptions.
I will not be bamboozled by humorous or clever posts and not see what I believe to be the underlying agenda. The Peace Rating is to stop unwanted PVP. If it is not, here is the OP's chance to answer these questions:
1. If you use your Peace Rating to stop another's attack on a third party, will you get an "Attacker Flag"?
2. If your use if the Peace Rating abilities fails, will you suffer a debuff or other ill effect for having failed?
3. Will the use of your Peace Rating cause a chaotic shift to your alignment?
4. If you excessively use your Peace Rating vs. the same character, should you get a negative reputation for using it multiple times within a certain time period?
5. What system or skill would you suggest that prevents your Peace Rating from being used? Not one that counters it. Not one that ends it after its effects have already done their damage. A skill that stops you from actually using it to begin with.
Lets us see where these questions lead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. The OP can defend his own proposal.
On the question of #3 however, I don't see how trying to put control over another's options would be chaotic. Making peace, even though used in PVP, might be seen as lawful. Not necessarily either though. I do suppose that it should enact a flag (#1) though. It is, oddly, an aggressive action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. The OP can defend his own proposal.
On the question of #3 however, I don't see how trying to put control over another's options would be chaotic. Making peace, even though used in PVP, might be seen as lawful. Not necessarily either though. I do suppose that it should enact a flag (#1) though. It is, oddly, an aggressive action.
You answered your own question. If it is an attack, as you agree it is, then it is chaotic, as GW has stated for all attacks.
By the OP's own implementation, the Peace Rating is being used to hinder one party, obviously against their will. Then within the same system, they make the debuff or inhibitor difficult to break, even if the victim is damaged. So the Peace Rating is being used to make the "attacker" unable to attack and open for attack, not easily able to break the hold. I not only find that not Lawful, but possibly even Evil and it should allow for the victim if killed as a result of the meddling to sanction the Pacifist with a negative reputation hit.
But, lets see what the OP comes up with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is straying worryingly close to my own view that no particular attack or spell is Evil - it is how you use it.
What could be more evil that taking over a being's mind? To strip away their own beliefs of right and wrong and to falsely pretend to be their friend while making them perform actions they would otherwise not do? Or Charm Person/Monster as we know it.
How evil is it to prevent a being from performing any action at all? To strip away not only their free will but also their ability to act at all? Yet Good Clerics are happy to use both Hold Person and Command.
Compared to such blatant mind control, such total intrusion into a being's inner core, animating dead old bones seems positively tame!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why not put the effect on the defender; like sanctuary, they become harder or impossible to attack, but the effect ends if they take any hostile action.
To counter that, drop the person putting the effect on the target.
Because that would either be an insanely temporary ability or insanely OP. Plus it lacks all the fun and the flavor.
"Daddy, do we get to eat today?"
"I'm sorry but someone preaching the evils of materialism took all of our gold and grain. I would boil up some leather for you but they took that too...
I'm confused about why you think an ability which requires two potential combatants to not fight in order to protect one of them could be overpowered, even if they can do it for minutes at a time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you look at "old bones" as waste, I see your point. If you look at "old bones" as Uncle Larry... well that could be different. Some things are "societally" (read that loosely) taboo. Necro's see no evil in it, but a use of "material". Goody clerics see no problem with holding you still while they "righteously" bash your evil or enemy ass.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's why I prefer the game software to avoid automatically labelling Necromancy as evil, and instead have it as a social taboo. As you say, old bones in the bottom of a centuries-old pit trap are unlikely to cause too many personal issues if mucked about with. The more house-trained Necromancers will be acutely aware of this and might even pay a bounty for recover of bones found in ancient sites.
Grave-robbing is another matter when it is the graveyard of the local town, and the body you have just dug up is the grandfather of the tavern owner.
The Necromancer who doesn't care about hurting the feelings of the living is justly going to be labelled Naughty and chased out of town. The one who does his best to avoid hurting people's feelings by using their relatives is surely deserving of a little more tolerance. Until they attack the town with the Undead Army, of course.
I would prefer Necromancy to be seen more as the PFO version of Renaissance doctors using cadavers for dissection and anatomy training - something that was barely tolerated and only then if you used the corpse of an executed criminal. I would certainly not expect a LG character to be happy about it, but a CG might just be able to see that the Necromancer is actually not harming anyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that Necromancy is only 'real' Necromancy when you have raised your first skeleton. Most of the 'Necromancy' school spells are harmless enough, even Paladins get some. Controlling Undead might be a case for being a proper Necromancer, but Good Clerics go down that route when they Turn Undead.... That they can only control them to go away just shows what amateurs they are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, obviously you haven't been reading much of what I've actually said if you think the Peace Rating system is a way to avoid PVP. It's a form of crowd control. You don't just take the Vow of Pacifism and free yourself from the struggles of PFO. You just change how you fight. From an in-character perspective, you fight with ideals rather than blades. From an out of character perspective you replace your ability to damage, with powerful crowd control abilities you can use to stop your attackers. You can still fail, and you can still be killed.
It isn't mind control. In character you are causing their character to not feel inclined toward violence. You are using your in character diplomacy skills / magical calming effects vs. their character's resolve to kill you. Just like if in real life, I convinced you not to fight me while playing soothing music. Not mind control, persuasion. It's just the sort of thing Nihimon has been asking for.
1. If you use your Peace Rating to stop another's attack on a third party, will you get an "Attacker Flag"?
Yes. Peace rating always has the same effect on someone as if you had hit them with a sword for purposes of flags and reputation penalties.
2. If your use if the Peace Rating abilities fails, will you suffer a debuff or other ill effect for having failed?
Yes. You just used one of your abilities and now it's on cooldown. You just took the time to use an attack that did nothing. Had you not used the peace rating ability, you could have taken an attack ability in that slot and been doing damage to them.
3. Will the use of your Peace Rating cause a chaotic shift to your alignment?
Only if used in a situation where attacking the player would cause a chaotic shift in alignment. In that case, yes, always.
4. If you excessively use your Peace Rating vs. the same character, should you get a negative reputation for using it multiple times within a certain time period?
Only if you would get a negative reputation for attacking / killing that same character. In case you aren't catching on (I never know, obviously you didn't catch it in the OP) the peace rating system just follows the pre-established reputation mechanics for violence.
5. What system or skill would you suggest that prevents your Peace Rating from being used? Not one that counters it. Not one that ends it after its effects have already done their damage. A skill that stops you from actually using it to begin with.
Lets us see where these questions lead.
If I'm using diplomacy abilities anything that silences me would work. If I'm using gestures (which would mainly be used for animals and beasts anyway) then you could paralyze me. If I'm using magic then anything that blocks magic could work.
Of course, just straight up killing me always works too.
If you are afraid to leave the safety of a settlement's walls, stay in doors. If Open World PVP, especially with non consensual triggers, is not to your liking then maybe PFO is not the game for you.While I am not really "all in" on the OP's idea, I also find things like this to be non constructive. Eldurian has been a genuinely humorous and clever poster.
It's ok. Me and Bluddwolf are always going to make jabs at each other. I think I greatly angered him when I questioned the motivations of his masters. He's a good loyal guard bandit. PAX is lucky to be holding his leash.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't get the purpose for such a complex system, if all this is is a crowd control ability. But the main issue I have with it is, you built into the description the difficulty of breaking the control, even if the target is damaged.
I understand that friendly fire could be used to break it. But, that can be done in TT as well. That is the nature of CC abilities.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Now it sounds like 'chanter mez. It's a "You're out of the fight until I decide otherwise" ability.
It also doesn't need new fluff. Enchantment (compulsion) effects already work exactly that way, and a TT sorcerer who can consistently beat will saves can do basically that: Repeated command spells: Drop it, come here, fall down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now it sounds like 'chanter mez. It's a "You're out of the fight until I decide otherwise" ability.
It also doesn't need new fluff. Enchantment (compulsion) effects already work exactly that way, and a TT sorcerer who can consistently beat will saves can do basically that: Repeated command spells: Drop it, come here, fall down.
But what you describe breaks on taking damage, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can rationalize enslaving the dead, you can rationalize enslaving the living. Both the enslaving and the rationalization are Evil acts.
So Druids are all evil?
Call Animal forces an animal to move towards the caster no matter what danger is ahead.
The various Charm and Calm spells effectively enslave animals (and the human versions do the same for people) by taking over their minds.
You Summon animals and monsters to fight for you, and the animals usually end up dead as a result.
You mess with an animal's body and mind by Anthropomorphising them.
Critically, how does instilling animation and a semblance of life to old bones differ from doing the same thing to plants? Animate Plants bears a strong resemblance to Animate Dead apart from the duration and that fact that you use plants rather than bones. Remember that the bones do not have to human.
Is it evil just because you use bones instead of plants? A druid would certainly see the plants as deserving of respect, yet he will 'enslave' those very same plants (including giving them a semblance of intelligence).
Come to that, are the Command and Hold Person spells not magical enslavement? And they are used by Good clerics on living people without consequence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can rationalize enslaving the dead, you can rationalize enslaving the living. Both the enslaving and the rationalization are Evil acts.So Druids are all evil?
Call Animal forces an animal to move towards the caster no matter what danger is ahead.
The various Charm and Calm spells effectively enslave animals (and the human versions do the same for people) by taking over their minds.
You Summon animals and monsters to fight for you, and the animals usually end up dead as a result.
You mess with an animal's body and mind by Anthropomorphising them.
Critically, how does instilling animation and a semblance of life to old bones differ from doing the same thing to plants? Animate Plants bears a strong resemblance to Animate Dead apart from the duration and that fact that you use plants rather than bones. Remember that the bones do not have to human.
Is it evil just because you use bones instead of plants? A druid would certainly see the plants as deserving of respect, yet he will 'enslave' those very same plants (including giving them a semblance of intelligence).
Come to that, are the Command and Hold Person spells not magical enslavement? And they are used by Good clerics on living people without consequence.
It is what it is. A line has been drawn in the definitions and it is The Line. No matter what reasons given for why animating the dead is evil, you will not be convinced. There will always be an argument of "other" similar abilities that are comparable and 1000+ different angles to argue it.
This argument is so 1970s.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's really the point, isn't it?
In a PC-driven game, it is not the PC society that is determining what constitutes acceptable behaviour, but the software. I thought that part of having an Open World Sandbox game where PCs set the social rules was to let the PCs determine what would be right and wrong in their society.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not overly critical to suggest that what someone hopes to find in this game is not there, and perhaps this us not the game for them.
Look at the other thread where the OP wants a structly defined and limiting class system and how he hated the direction that GW has gone in. Would you suggest that person stay anyway, even though the game is obviously not what they are looking for.
Even Ryan Dancey has said, "If you don' t like it, make your own game" on at least one occasion.
I'm not the least bit concerned about stating the obvious, and I'm not in the habit of encouraging known misconceptions.
I will not be bamboozled by humorous or clever posts and not see what I believe to be the underlying agenda. The Peace Rating is to stop unwanted PVP. If it is not, here is the OP's chance to answer these questions:
1. If you use your Peace Rating to stop another's attack on a third party, will you get an "Attacker Flag"?
2. If your use if the Peace Rating abilities fails, will you suffer a debuff or other ill effect for having failed?
3. Will the use of your Peace Rating cause a chaotic shift to your alignment?
4. If you excessively use your Peace Rating vs. the same character, should you get a negative reputation for using it multiple times within a certain time period?
5. What system or skill would you suggest that prevents your Peace Rating from being used? Not one that counters it. Not one that ends it after its effects have already done their damage. A skill that stops you from actually using it to begin with.
Lets us see where these questions lead.
I have very little to add to the discussion beyond the fact that I tend to agree with Bludd's sentiments on this subject.
I really jumped in here to point out that he is quickly becoming my favorite PFO contrarian.
A few concerns.
Firstly, while I understand the point of Vow of Pacifism, I don't like the idea that the trait makes it so you can't use "aggressive" actions. Be a lot more interesting that, even with the trait, you can still perform an "aggressive" action, only there will be consequences (like losing the benefits of VoP). Then you have to atone for your actions before VoP can be restored to you.
Secondly, someone mentioned an aggressive rating (rage?). This actually sounds pretty cool. Maybe make it apart of the peace rating, the opposite spectrum. It could cause someone affected to start attacking anyone near by, friend or foe alike. And VoP should totally allow you to increase aggression without consequences (after all, you didn't put a battle axe in that man's skull, his friend did, you merely helped him realize his desire to put battle axes in skulls). (Then again, I'm a bit wary about a system that removes control from players.)
Thirdly, shouldn't the same skills you use to put peace on someone allow you to break that peace on someone else? Especially in the case of diplomacy where person A is reasoning why a soldier shouldn't attack them, a person B could reason why the soldier should attack person A.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my view pacifism is an internal belief system, it can not be forced upon another. I intend to play a pacifist Monk type character, of LG (core alignment) and likely a LN to NG (active alingment).
My pacifism is internal, I will follow it as often as possible. If the are skills that makes me more difficult to hit or if I can train skills that will hinder my opponent's attacks, I will. In Pathfinder RPG, the Flowing Monk would have represented by preferred character clas the best. If the are skills that I can train, that turns my opponents attacks back at himself, then those would b the only offensive capabilities that I would use on a regular basis.
Hopefully with my evasion skills, defensive skills and abilities to turn attack back at my opponents, they would stop their attack. If on the other hand, if I fall to their attacks, at least I hleld true to my pacifist beliefs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my view pacifism is an internal belief system, it can not be forced upon another. I intend to play a pacifist Monk type character, of LG (core alignment) and likely a LN to NG (active alingment).
My pacifism is internal, I will follow it as often as possible. If the are skills that makes me more difficult to hit or if I can train skills that will hinder my opponent's attacks, I will. In Pathfinder RPG, the Flowing Monk would have represented by preferred character clas the best. If the are skills that I can train, that turns my opponents attacks back at himself, then those would b the only offensive capabilities that I would use on a regular basis.
Hopefully with my evasion skills, defensive skills and abilities to turn attack back at my opponents, they would stop their attack. If on the other hand, if I fall to their attacks, at least I hleld true to my pacifist beliefs.
I think the the problem here is a disconnect between metagame and in-character perspective.
Anyone saying this system "forces" people toward pacifism is viewing it from a metagame perspective.
From an in-character perspective they are being calmed and persuaded. This isn't compulsion, this is your character persuading them to stop attacking you. As they begin to question their actions they become less effective at combat. Damage breaks them out of it because it's hard to stay in a peaceful state of mind while you are getting sliced open.
It is completely within the realm of pacifists to convince other people to give up violence. Why would someone give up violence themselves if they don't feel those values are worth preaching?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could do that from a metagame or in character sense. You could promote the ethics of non violence through chat, or give them monetary reasons to cease aggression. Either alternative will succeed or fail on it's own perceived value.
I don't see the need to translate it into a mechanic, and agree that the inclusion of it could hinder play styles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could do that from a metagame or in character sense. You could promote the ethics of non violence through chat, or give them monetary reasons to cease aggression. Either alternative will succeed or fail on it's own perceived value.
I don't see the need to translate it into a mechanic, and agree that the inclusion of it could hinder play styles.
Please elaborate on your statement. Which playstyles is it hindering and how?