I am almost 90% positive that one of my players has downloaded the Rise of the Runelords PDF and is surreptitiously reading it while we are playing the campaign.
Any advice on what to do about it?
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Probably best to confront the person, ask them if they've done so and get their response.
The other option is to change things. What makes you think he's cheating? Is it because of monster tactics? Change monsters or alter their abilities and/or tactics. Loot? Change the loot! That's not a +1 Longsword, it's a Rod of Lesser Extend Metamagic.
Peek. If the player is actually reading it while playing, you can probably distract them and get a look at their screen.
Call his butt out on it. He's ruining the game for himself first off, but also making it harder for you because you are always wondering if he is reading up and meta-gaming. I hate meta-gamers, so i would call him out.
Changing something big is a good way to go but make it something from the adventure. If they call you on it ( had a guy who did this with monster stat blocks) they are peeking.
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Look for some major plot point you can radically alter. For example, if an NPC tries to trick the players and then betray them, have the NPC be sincere instead, so when he councils against trusting the NPC, they actually get the original result of having trusted the NPC.
EXAMPLE : In the AP (made up example), Sneaky Sarah begs the PCs to save her sister from the Hag, but in actuality, she's a witch in the Hag's coven, and there is no sister. Change Sneaky Sarah to Sincere Sarah, who really does have a sister that the Hag is going to sacrifice. When the PC who is cheating refuses to help Sarah, they alter find her sister, sacrificed. And Sarah becomes an enemy of the PCs, making their lives difficult at every turn.
There are a number of people suggesting that you alter the AP to invalidate the cheater's knowledge. I disagree with that strategy. It won't help the game, or your peace of mind, to enter into that battle with a cheater.
There are a number of people suggesting that you alter the AP to invalidate the cheater's knowledge. I disagree with that strategy. It won't help the game, or your peace of mind, to enter into that battle with a cheater.
But it will still be the only option once the cheater has been confronted though. Even if the player admits to what they have done, and agrees to stop, they have still looked over the AP. Unless the player is just kicked out entire, which is a rather dramatic move, then the GM will need to account for things they might have glanced at before they stopped cheating.
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My general rule with cheating players is to let them cheat. If it is so important to "win" that they need to resort to cheating then you cannot cure the underlying problem.
I only act if their cheating is affecting the experience of the other players. If it becomes too egregious then I just stop inviting them to the game.
Have an honest and up front conversation with them. Ask them if they are, and politely ask them to stop doing so. Had to do this with one of my players when we first started Runelords, and it went quite well. If this is an offline game, consider not allowing laptops/tablets at the table.
Yeah, i just suggest you bring it up at the start of the game. Let all the players know that this is a cooperative game of a group's journey to Heroism and Glory and if anyone has prior knowledge to the outcome of certain scenarios it will ruin the magic and mystery of the game for all.
Also let them know that if you do find out that someone is "cheating", be they friend or just someone who has recently joined the group, you will have to ask them to leave the group. Put this out there and let the group deal with it on their own. Folks at the table should be able to root out this problem and take the pressure off you.
I myself have started playing this Adventure path with some friends and don't feel i have any insider knowledge (i have not read the RotRL scenarios) but i have read the Pathfinder Comic which feels an awful lot like the first portion of the adventure. I am doing everything in my power to keep myself in check but sometimes i let it influence some of my lines of thinking. I just try to fit it to my characters line of thinking also.
This is purely personal experience.
Also, if the cheating continues or you decide to just let it go and carry on for the sake of the others at the table you get to be a little more brutal in dealing with this "I need to win" player.
There are a number of people suggesting that you alter the AP to invalidate the cheater's knowledge. I disagree with that strategy. It won't help the game, or your peace of mind, to enter into that battle with a cheater.
I think you misunderstand, it's not to invalidate the cheater's knowledge.
It's to confirm whether or not he is cheating. I'd rather do some extra work up front to find out in a sneaky way than confront someone who isn't cheating. If I accuse someone who isn't cheating of cheating, I'm alienating a player. If I change things up, and he obviously goes the inobvious way, then it confirms he's cheating. Then I can talk to him out of game, and invite him to leave if he doesn't stop.
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Uh, who cares if he's reading ahead?
What if he's the kind of person who reads spoilers before seeing a movie? Some people can enjoy a story just as well when they know the end as when they don't.
Uh, who cares if he's reading ahead?
What if he's the kind of person who reads spoilers before seeing a movie? Some people can enjoy a story just as well when they know the end as when they don't.
Without knowing the gaming group, you can't say that it is not bad. The group could be of the type who consider it cheating, and that is what it is. It's bad for the group as a whole.
Additionally, depending on how they play, having foreknowledge might just let him get all the loot, or the AP RP rewards. Just saying...
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An RPG is different from a movie or a book, in that the player influences what happens, whereas that is not the case in a movie or a book. Thus, they're not entirely comparable. Having spoilers for a movie or a book might make it less fun for you or not, but it won't change what happens. It may well change what happens in an RPG.
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I am almost 90% positive that one of my players has downloaded the Rise of the Runelords PDF and is surreptitiously reading it while we are playing the campaign.
Any advice on what to do about it?
You're the DM. Change things as you wish. Whether it be monster tactics, stats, quantities, creatures that appear, loot, kind of hard to change the storyline though... but you get the idea. If he complains about the storyline and creatures not lining up, then you KNOW he's reading through the campaign books :P
Think of it this way -> You work in Retail. You witness someone take an item off the shelf and scratch/peel off the bar code and other stickers that make an item look "new". Do you accuse him? Or let a manager know and set up a plan to bait and catch him? If you accuse him, he can deny it and get away with it as the cameras didnt see him, the item looks "used", and he can potentially make you lose your job due to "false accusations". If you "cheat back", let your manager and crew know, you can maybe get a camera set up over there or have someone secretly follow him "sweeping" or something(the manager) even with a video phone maybe to catch him in the act. Then you keep your job, and he either plays right or doesnt come back.
That sounds like the best option. Confronting him will likely single him out. :T That's no bueno for the game. I see my fellow players cheat constantly with their rolls, be it virtual or physical, but I let them cheat if they want to "win" that bad. Personally I enjoy the struggle of winning or losing a roll and whatever blessings or detriments fall upon me because of it. I also enjoy the surprise of the storyline.
Also, if you really wanted to **** him, you could gang up every creature on him. Maybe they just so happen to hate elves or whatever race he is or Something like that. Not even the best rolls will ensure survival at that point. Then he gets to make a new character : P That is slightly cruel, but maybe it'll send the message that no matter how much he reads that book, he can still fail horribly.
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Also, if you really wanted to **** him, you could gang up every creature on him. Maybe they just so happen to hate elves or whatever race he is or Something like that. Not even the best rolls will ensure survival at that point. Then he gets to make a new character : P
This is a bad idea. Things like this can end friendships.
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This is a bad idea. Things like this can end friendships.
Also, if you really wanted to **** him, you could gang up every creature on him. Maybe they just so happen to hate elves or whatever race he is or Something like that. Not even the best rolls will ensure survival at that point. Then he gets to make a new character : P
You're right. It's TOO cruel. Like Mario Party cruel. That game ends friendships :T
You're right. It's TOO cruel. Like Mario Party cruel. That game ends friendships :TWell, just in case, Mario Party is a competitive game. Pathfinder is not.
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I am almost 90% positive that one of my players has downloaded the Rise of the Runelords PDF and is surreptitiously reading it while we are playing the campaign.
Any advice on what to do about it?
This line is what you need, to start with: "I don't like it when people are browsing at the table. You miss stuff. Can everyone put their e-readers and i-pads away so we can roll some dice. Next week is paper character sheets only."
The alternative is: "Hey, (insert name here), can I borrow that a second? Just need to check something on your sheet."
Or: "Hey, (trustworthy player) can you peek over (untrustworthy player)'s shoulder? I'm worried she/he's reading the AP."
Or: "I think I'm going to end the game, it isn't fun. I think that it must be too obvious. You guys are always one step ahead of me and it is killing the drama of the game. What do you all reckon?"
Plus, you can always have this loud conversation at the table: "I was talking to Jim last week and he said one of his players had secretly read the AP and was totally killing the drama of the game by knowing it all beforehand. What kind of selfish loser reads the AP ahead of the GM? I would hate that! I'm glad I can trust you guys/gals not to pull a jerk move like that."
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Make Shalelu secretly be a Red Mantis Assasin who is after him...also find any magic items that would be perfect for him and remove them, replacing them with a completely different item. Watch for the confusion and hurt looks.
Cheating with prior knowledge, while not great, is actually a lower form of cheating. Cheating on dice while sitting right at the table in front of everyone (IMO) demonstrates a greater need to cheat. So first I would figure out if you have a bigger problem than you realize, or is it just reading ahead.
Second, unless you are pressed for time IRL, just change the heck out of the AP. There are about a zillion ideas for moving parts around, changing out NPCs and adjusting the storylines in RotRL here on the forums. Especially so since this AP is the oldest.
In a nutshell, change magic items, traps, secrets, who the trustworthy allies and who the real bad guys are, etc.
Possibly, if you mod the hell out of whatever adventure you are on now, he will assume you are doing this for all, and you might get off easy :)
Make Shalelu secretly be a Red Mantis Assasin who is after him...also find any magic items that would be perfect for him and remove them, replacing them with a completely different item. Watch for the confusion and hurt looks.
Why would the assassin be after him: you need a justification for that. Don't metagame to stop a metagamer because then you become a monster too.
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Uh, who cares if he's reading ahead?
What if he's the kind of person who reads spoilers before seeing a movie? Some people can enjoy a story just as well when they know the end as when they don't.
1. This explains a lot about your posts in other threads.
2. It isn't a solo game. That person wanting to read ahead ruins the game for other players who don't in the same way as sitting in a movie theater and yelling out the twist ending ruins the movie.
It is rude and selfish.
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This is a bad idea. Things like this can end friendships.
Also, if you really wanted to **** him, you could gang up every creature on him. Maybe they just so happen to hate elves or whatever race he is or Something like that. Not even the best rolls will ensure survival at that point. Then he gets to make a new character : P
So can cheating.
Not saying it is a good idea, but what I do think is a good and fair idea is having an assumption you would only make if you read the story lead to a dangerous outcome.
And I can think of a number of opportunities for this in RoTRL.
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I'd be inclined to send the following email to the group.
I'm sending this to all of you because I want everyone to hear it so there are no misunderstandings.
I'm nearly certain that one of you is reading ahead in the AP.
I'm not cool with that. It provides you with metagame knowledge that your player should not have.
It stops now or I will no longer be willing to run the game. Please don't ruin it for everybody.
Also be advised that I will now be changing things here and there from how they are written. Certainly many discoveries intended as bonuses for clever and/or lucky players will no longer be in the same place and unique enemy vulnerabilities will be changed. Thanks for that extra work by the way. Those of you who have not read ahead should notice no difference.
Hope to see you all on Sunday for a spoiler free session
- Torger
P.S. My apologies to those of you to whom this does not apply but as I said I want this issue out in the open.
and if the problem didn't stop then I'd stop running the game (way to ruin it for everybody).
- Torger
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Make Shalelu secretly be a Red Mantis Assasin who is after him...also find any magic items that would be perfect for him and remove them, replacing them with a completely different item. Watch for the confusion and hurt looks.Why would the assassin be after him: you need a justification for that. Don't metagame to stop a metagamer because then you become a monster too.
Sorry there is no keyboard symbol for "tongue in cheek humor"...was meant as a joke. You can't fix cheating by just changing a couple things. I guess I will have to use the /sarcasm switch in the future... :)
However, in afterthought, I can see why you might have thought I was serious. If you read the crossover to CotCT, its not like this is really a reach, and she could easily be there due to other reasons. Additionally, it is nearly effortless for a good GM to weave the storyline logically over in this direction, and as long as you ran things fairly, I don't see the issue. I have preset that an NPC was going to fixate or hate a particular PC as part of my storylines.
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1. This explains a lot about your posts in other threads.
Now I'm curious what you're attributing to me ;)
For the record, I GM 95% of the time, and I've got a player that actually enjoys the game more knowing behind the scene secrets because to her, what happens is less important than how it happens.
2. It isn't a solo game. That person wanting to read ahead ruins the game for other players who don't in the same way as sitting in a movie theater and yelling out the twist ending ruins the movie.
It is rude and selfish.
It's only rude and selfish if they yell out the twist ending. If they sit quietly and enjoy their secret knowledge, I don't see how it could be a problem.
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It is rude and selfish to cheat, particularly in a game you play with your friends. A player having secret knowledge puts everyone else at a disadvantage.
You know, the people who are supposed to be your friends.
As to the other part, you have 3209 posts in your history, so attribution is easy to verify...
and I've got a player that actually enjoys the game more knowing behind the scene secrets because to her, what happens is less important than how it happens.
If they sit quietly and enjoy their secret knowledge, I don't see how it could be a problem.
This to me sounds like an unusual situation. It runs counter to the assumptions of how the game is played and enjoyed.
That being said if this player and I had a chat wherein clear boundries were set regarding the use of her insider knowledge (ie don't ever use it in character and don't ever wreck the surprise for other players) I might be willing to allow it. Why wreck her fun after all.
The first time she used such knowledge inapropriately we'd be having a new chat though.
- Torger
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It is rude and selfish to cheat, particularly in a game you play with your friends. A player having secret knowledge puts everyone else at a disadvantage.
I don't think we're talking about the same thing at all. You're assuming the person is acting on the secret knowledge, finding hidden treasure and not sharing it, letting other people in the party die while they use the secret weakness they pretend to guess and save the day. That behavior is ridiculous and obnoxious.
But if someone just knows the major plot points, but enjoys the ride, and acts in character, etc., how is anyone disadvantaged?
I think the question that needs to be clarified is this:
Is this player just reading ahead, or is he reading ahead and acting on that knowledge to the detriment of the other players?
As to the other part, you have 3209 posts in your history, so attribution is easy to verify...
You know what I meant. I don't read ahead, for example, so I'm curious how this enlightens you at all. I've only PCed in a single AP or other module twice before--one was Carrion Crown (which the GM ended after book 3 because nobody really liked it), and the other was The Fall of the Camarilla in Vampire: the Requiem.
In both cases, I read behind the GM, not ahead. I actually like the surprise. I don't generally run APs or modules (I just finished my first and only--Book 1 of Serpent's Skull, and from here I'm basically abandoning the rest of the path and doing my own thing), but I have had players who wanted to know things going on out of their character's sight, and I've had no problems telling them. Everyone enjoyed the games and nobody ever disrupted things with their knowledge.
When I was younger and stupider I did the same thing during a 2nd edition adventure. I quickly realised what a waste of time it was though. It takes so much fun out of the game.
Hopefully he'll come to realise the same thing.
If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out. If you don't want to be so confrontational, do what everyone else says and change the loot, tactics etc. Maybe even put in a cursed item!
If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.
I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.
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But if someone just knows the major plot points, but enjoys the ride, and acts in character, etc., how is anyone disadvantaged?
Because 100% compartmentalization of player knowledge and character knowledge is impossible. How a player's character acts (or how a player "acts in character") is unavoidably influenced by what a character knows about the situation. It's not necessary far a player to try to "cheat" with his fore-knowledge of the adventure, just by knowing he's already changed things.
Similarly, it's impossible to have the same reaction to a twist or sudden plot development if you already know what's coming. You can never read a book for the first time twice. When reading a book or watching a movie, your reactions are your own and only affect you, but when playing a social game like Pathfinder, you reactions affect every person at the table.
So, it comes down to individual groups. Some groups might not mind if one player reads ahead or knows things the rest of them don't. Some groups really enjoy having a Kender in the party. Other groups might have issues with these things.
If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.
Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...
Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.
Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?
Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.
By roleplay?
"Oh, look at this shiny necklace I found in the hidden compartment in the desk. It'll go great with my robes."Nobody in your party has ever grabbed an item quickly? The rogue has never slipped something quietly into a pocket?
Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.By roleplay?
"Oh, look at this shiny necklace I found in the hidden compartment in the desk. It'll go great with my robes."Nobody in your party has ever grabbed an item quickly? The rogue has never slipped something quietly into a pocket?
I don't think I, as a player, would ever let that slide, nor would anyone that's ever played in my games.
I don't think I, as a player, would ever let that slide, nor would anyone that's ever played in my games.Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.By roleplay?
"Oh, look at this shiny necklace I found in the hidden compartment in the desk. It'll go great with my robes."Nobody in your party has ever grabbed an item quickly? The rogue has never slipped something quietly into a pocket?
Oh well. Each group is different.
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The issue comes down to one player in the group always knowing what the "right" solution is, and therefore that player either helping or not helping the group.
I love reading Adventure Paths. I don't play them if I have run them unless the GM asks me specifically to do so, which has only happened once, here on the boards, and that one time I did I made a character who made no group decisions, by design.
If you know the best possible outcome at all times you are either helping your group with the knowledge, or not making your best effort to aide the group in being successful.
Either way is selfish.
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I have nothing to say about cheaters. I just like to see the word "surreptitiously" used in a sentence.
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Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.
Slips note to GM which reads:
[em]I'm making a Sleight of Hand check to pocket the XYZ McGuffin.[/em]GM calls for Perception roll, player X rolls their SoH instead.
Done and done.
Note, I have played with groups where this has happened, and folks have been cool with roleplaying the situation out (usually with warnings of losing hands if it ever happens again once the PC is caught in the act ... once with blackmail and a tentative partnership). I've played with other groups where this has happened and player X became a bit of a pariah (the player, not the PC ... it was viewed as a player being a jerk). So it really depends on your group.
OP here.
I'd like to address some things and make some clarifications.
Also, whenever I would lean in his direction, before my suspicions really took root, he would turn the laptop away or fold the screen down a bit. Like that isn't suspicious in and of itself.
I have also suspected him of cheating using a dice roller on the lap top. Not that the dice roller isn't fair but he just tells us he rolled ( "double-click"), and his result, which almost always succeeds.
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Switch which doors lead to which rooms. Give him a knowing look if he ever complains, or seems surprised. Hopefully it'll embarrass him into giving up cheating.
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Switch which doors lead to which rooms. Give him a knowing look if he ever complains, or seems surprised. Hopefully it'll embarrass him into giving up cheating.
Exactly. Change names, switch roles, etc...and he will walk into the trap he was cheating to avoid.
Although personally, if I could verify he was cheating I would just "forget" to invite him going forward.
Life is to short for inconsiderate people.