Like, for example, an agreement between these two particular players and the GM to not gank the new player's Drow on sight in a one-shot module?If the two players agree, for sure! If they don't, and you go ahead and do it, then you bring it on upon yourself as you aren't reaching agreement - unless you have a GMSO card.
I'm glad we all agree.
Which is funny, since I would've held the same stance whether it was my SO or not, which I have already said multiple times. Her being my SO only made me more defensive, but my stance has always been to dissuade bullying from my table.
I was ready to drop the whole conversation, but you just had to go back to the GMSO thing. Strawman ahoy!
If two PC's have a conflict in-game, we figure out a way to hash it out. Might even come down to PvP, if no other compromise can be reached. But, bullying someone during character creation doesn't fly.
If the players had a justification beyond OOC metagame bias, it would've been a different story. Had even one of them said to me; "Hey, I'm really not comfortable with a drow in the party, and/or my character has this, this, and that reason for hating drow, and wouldn't readily be traveling with one, etc" then I would have likely asked her not to play the drow. If someone was playing an escaped former drow captive, or a drow-hunter, then of course I wouldn't shoehorn a drow into the party.
But no, all I got was "I hate drow because this other DM from 10 years ago played them badly, so I'm gonna kill every drow in every game ever, just because I can. Nobody is ever allowed to play one because I'll just kill them." No further discussion, no compromise, no agreement was reached beyond "if you are going to kill another player as soon as the game starts, you're going to leave."
They didn't even argue that; they understood where I was coming from and agreed to chill out. The whole exchange took literally less than 2 or 3 minutes. No arguing, no crying foul, nadda.
I meant in real life. So many people hate Drow with a passion, just see this entire discourse. It wouldn't happen if it was Orcs or Demons.
Paizo should have just made Drow like lollipops and rainbows to subvert the entire thing :P
What do you suppose made it that way though? Do you think that the Drizzt novels made things better or worse?
I think that ultimately a race steeped in mystery and badness all of a sudden became very accessible, and the drizzt thing just opened the door to a million clones, and perhaps it was the endless clones that really ended up as the clincher.
I'm not sure furnishing them with rainbows and lollipops is the way forward, but yeah there was an opportunity to do something...more?
Not sure what though, they already got rid of the spider angle.
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Drizzt clones and Kender are killable on sight in my games with no alignment penalty and bonus xp.
Oooh Kender... yeah ok.
Along with Gully Dwarves?
Define a Drizz't clone, please.
Just being a drow does not count as one.
I've seen several players play Drow, and I have yet to see a Drizz't clone.
I do know, but some people make different definitions for a Drizz't clone, just like people cannot agree 100% on what exactly makes a character a Mary Sue.
Define a Drizz't clone, please.
Just being a drow does not count as one.
An angst ridden drow struggling to cope with the fact that he is good when his whole race is EVIL and nobody from the surface likes him because of the atrocities his people have committed. So he must right wrongs and be a beacon of shining good and suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune... and maybe sparkle a little.
Good Drow are 1990's Edwards, thus passé, clichéd, dated, bad boy turned good tug fantasy from 2 decades ago.
thejeff... I openly discourage Drow and Kender, I think you take posts way to seriously so you can be offended on purpose or porpoise... what ever takes your fancy.
Shifty if the parties Paladin burns down an orphanage full of good drow, kender and gully dwarves, I close my books and say you sir have won D&D and take the Player to the Pub and buy him many beers.
The problem Drizz't faces in his story is understandable. Really, this kind of tale would work just fine for a tiefling or an orc as well.
What's bringing him to brooding is a legitimate problem. You wouldn't exactly be the happiest person in the world if you were discriminated 24/7.
Actually, as someone who has suffered from anti-semitism and racism (as well as bullying), I think I fail to see the problem because I can sympathize with him.
The best Drow character I have seen.. A male drow sick of being treated badly by the female of his species poisons his family and escapes to the surface because its safer than staying in his home city.
He was still evil, but he made alliances to keep himself hidden from the Authorities and from priestess of Lloth who put a bounty on his head.
He knew who he was and what his people did and dealt with it.
Icy - the problem was after the books every group had at-least one player wanting to play a duel scimitar wielding Drow Ranger called Drizzile, Fo'Shizzle, Bizzle or Pizzile.
I discourage Kender, mostly because I've seen concepts for Kender characters thrown around for the wrong reasons; for example, one guy wanted to play a Kender in Ravenloft, because the default race gets immunity to fear effects(or something like that, it's been while since I looked). That was the only reason. So, no. But, mostly because they're a fairly setting-specific race, and I haven't played in Dragonlance since 2004. I'm not aware if they appear in any other settings.
Drow in general, it depends on the game. I've ran settings where they were THE hated enemy of all surface dwellers(Drow Wars AP), and I've ran games where the public opinion was neutral about them(along with tieflings, dhampir, kobolds, dragonkind, etc). If someone wants to play a race like that, I inform them of the status quo of the setting beforehand. No "surprise! You're killed when you enter the town" shenanigans.
Every character is an individual. One drow rebel (gender doesn't matter) can stay Evil, the other can shift to Good. Hell, a third could become Lawful Neutral within reason.
Enforcing status quo too much only makes the race a caricature. There's a difference between making mentions of traits common to a race and making every person a clone of the other.
Good Drow are 1990's Edwards, thus passé, clichéd, dated, bad boy turned good tug fantasy from 2 decades ago.
Is it too soon for sparkling Dhampir?
I've seen several players play Drow, and I have yet to see a Drizz't clone.
Same here. So far I've only seen Neutral or Evil female Drow being played.
Icy - the problem was after the books every group had at-least one player wanting to play a duel scimitar wielding Drow Ranger called Drizzile, Fo'Shizzle, Bizzle or Pizzile.
MMO's are full of them.
The best Drow character I have seen.. A male drow sick of being treated badly by the female of his species poisons his family and escapes to the surface because its safer than staying in his home city.
He was still evil, but he made alliances to keep himself hidden from the Authorities and from priestess of Lloth who put a bounty on his head.
He knew who he was and what his people did and dealt with it.
The drow characters I've seen my fellow players play as were along those lines. They never relented their heritage, but got tired of the Underdark and sought to make a life of their own.
The only drow I've seen in-game who actually actively turned against her kind was an albino drow in the Drow Wars AP I ran for a while(they exist, they're in the Drow of the Underdark splatbook). She was originally sent to the surface as a double-agent, but under a false pretense;in her absence, she was to be framed for a crime and an informant would rat her out on the surface; she was more or less sent to die.
When she learned what her matriarch had intended, she double-crossed her house, and joined the surface-dwellers. She gave away critical intel regarding the Drow's army, numbers, strike points, etc. She never actually turned "good," she just wanted to see her matron destroyed.
Kender a licence to disrupt the part with Kleptomaniac high jinx - ticking off NPCs by robbing them...
Kender players - oh yeh my Kender made it to Greyhawk because he accidentally Mr Bean-ed it through some weird portal.
The best Drow character I have seen.. A male drow sick of being treated badly by the female of his species poisons his family and escapes to the surface because its safer than staying in his home city.
He was still evil, but he made alliances to keep himself hidden from the Authorities and from priestess of Lloth who put a bounty on his head.
He knew who he was and what his people did and dealt with it.
The drow characters I've seen my fellow players play as were along those lines. They never relented their heritage, but got tired of the Underdark and sought to make a life of their own.
The only drow I've seen in-game who actually actively turned against her kind was an albino drow in the Drow Wars AP I ran for a while(they exist, they're in the Drow of the Underdark splatbook). She was originally sent to the surface as a double-agent, but under a false pretense;in her absence, she was to be framed for a crime and an informant would rat her out on the surface; she was more or less sent to die.
When she learned what her matriarch had intended, she double-crossed her house, and joined the surface-dwellers. She gave away critical intel regarding the Drow's army, numbers, strike points, etc. She never actually turned "good," she just wanted to see her matron destroyed.
They sound like characters I would not discourage.
But a good Drow deserves the Dwarven Banhammer?
Why is it so hard to imagine a Drow who isn't a total jerk?
It starts to go swiftly towards racism, and that's discomforting.
You should also ban good Tieflings. While we're at it, let's also ban non-good Aasimar.
But a good Drow deserves the Dwarven Banhammer?
If they are a Drizzt clone, which was what was said.
You should also ban good Tieflings. While we're at it, let's also ban non-good Aasimar.
Only if they are Drizzt clones, which could be difficult.
Then how is my Good Drow supposed to view the rest of the Drow, if not with sympathy / pity?
You know, I'd rather play a Drizz't clone than a character that makes no damned sense in any context.
Then how is my Good Drow supposed to view the rest of the Drow, if not with sympathy / pity?
Umm any way you want him/her too, including with sympathy / pity?
She/He can even like lasagne if they want.
But being a Drizz't clone is heresy, so pity / sympathy is out of the question. Didn't you get the memo?
But being a Drizz't clone is heresy, so pity / sympathy is out of the question. Didn't you get the memo?
No, being a Drizzt clone is out of the question.
Why is your memo different? Who sent yours?
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Fantasy roleplaying games are not the are to start talking about things being cliche or overused.
Things that are more "cliche" than Drizzt, or drow as a whole, both in roleplaying and literature in general:
-Elves, especially ones that love nature
-Dwarves, especially ones that love machines/dislike nature
-Old Man Wizards
-Dragons guarding treasure hoards
Why, I have to ask, are none of these banned, when the idea of a member of a bad race trying to be good is so detestable to you?You could argue that these sort of tropes are broader and more "inescapable", but so it the bad-trying-to-be-good. Ironically, a non-evil drow/tiefling/goblin/etc. is much less "cliche" than the evil ones, yet the former was the star of a popular novel series and is thus unusable by anyone anymore.
-Elves, especially ones that love nature
-Dwarves, especially ones that love machines/dislike nature
-Old Man Wizards
-Dragons guarding treasure hoards
Meh, the Elves and nature thing delinked at least as early as 1st ed with the plethora of types, from the cosmopolitan Greys to the underdark Drow.
Dwarves likewise had a bit of a revolution back then too.
I haven't seen an old man wizard in a while either come to think of it.
And yeah Dragons are as horde bound as any other monster, if they move too far away from the loot its normally upset players as a result.
With all that said...
Ban Drizzt clones, and Kender, and Gully Dwarves.
Beers are on 8th Dwarf if you do.
But a good Drow deserves the Dwarven Banhammer?
Why is it so hard to imagine a Drow who isn't a total jerk?
It starts to go swiftly towards racism, and that's discomforting.
You should also ban good Tieflings. While we're at it, let's also ban non-good Aasimar.
I try not to ban things - I do advise warn and discourage....
Too many players think that they can start out with the decades of work Drizzt put in trying to convince the locals not to kill him.
I say you will encounter - "we don't serve their kind in here" people will be openly hostile... they wont kill you on sight but they will drive you out of town if you stay too long or do anything suspicious... Because in my game Drow a homicidal, demon worshipping racist monsters.
But being a Drizz't clone is heresy, so pity / sympathy is out of the question. Didn't you get the memo?
If it helps, the "Drizz't clone heresy" extends to other mediums as well. I played Final Fantasy Online for a few years, and there were Cloud Strife clones everywhere. Played Phantasy Star Online and saw a million Vegeta(Dragonball Z) clones, due to one class having a hairstyle that looked just like his.
I think it has more to do with people wanting to play a clone of an establish archetypal character, than anything having to do with actual race/alignment, etc.
Fantasy roleplaying games are not the are to start talking about things being cliche or overused.
Things that are more "cliche" than Drizzt, or drow as a whole, both in roleplaying and literature in general:
-Elves, especially ones that love nature
-Dwarves, especially ones that love machines/dislike nature
-Old Man Wizards
-Dragons guarding treasure hoardsWhy, I have to ask, are none of these banned, when the idea of a member of a bad race trying to be good is so detestable to you?You could argue that these sort of tropes are broader and more "inescapable", but so it the bad-trying-to-be-good. Ironically, a non-evil drow/tiefling/goblin/etc. is much less "cliche" than the evil ones, yet the former was the star of a popular novel series and is thus unusable by anyone anymore.
- Elves in Golarion are Aliens who worship a goddess of Lust and Vengeance.
- Dwarves are horrid clichés in Golarion still... I havent played a Dwarf since Shadowrun.
- Never seen a oldman wizard in a game except for the Pregen.
- Good Dragons run eugenics programs - very cool.
Ironically, a non-evil drow/tiefling/goblin/etc. is much less "cliche" than the evil ones, yet the former was the star of a popular novel series and is thus unusable by anyone anymore.
You've answered your own question, I'm afraid. Dragons guarding treasure hoard is a staple of fantasy fiction generally, going back at least to Beowulf; Drizzt is a specific expy of an overexposed popular novel series.
It's the reason that we still make science fiction movies involving faster-than-light travel, but none of them will have protagonists named Skywalker.
Basically, if you're going to steal -- and everyone does -- make your theft imaginative and non-obvious. Don't copy, re-invent. That's one reason that Gregory House works as a Sherlock Holmes expy; other than the name itself, there's little to directly tie him to his literary ancestor. And the personality of Holmes is so complex and compelling that it's worth revisiting. On the other hand, what does anyone really remember about Drizzt other than that he's a non-evil drow?
Similarly, it's the same reason that an old man wizard (like Obi-wan Kenobi) works, but Zandalf the Off-White would not. It makes sense that mentors are old (how else did they learn more than the protagonist) and wise (which is what 'wizard' actually means). But once you strip "wise mentor" away from Gandalf, you don't have much left to work with and reimagine.
Ironically, a non-evil drow/tiefling/goblin/etc. is much less "cliche" than the evil ones, yet the former was the star of a popular novel series and is thus unusable by anyone anymore.You've answered your own question, I'm afraid. Dragons guarding treasure hoard is a staple of fantasy fiction generally, going back at least to Beowulf; Drizzt is a specific expy of an overexposed popular novel series.
It's the reason that we still make science fiction movies involving faster-than-light travel, but none of them will have protagonists named Skywalker.
Basically, if you're going to steal -- and everyone does -- make your theft imaginative and non-obvious. Don't copy, re-invent. That's one reason that Gregory House works as a Sherlock Holmes expy; other than the name itself, there's little to directly tie him to his literary ancestor. And the personality of Holmes is so complex and compelling that it's worth revisiting. On the other hand, what does anyone really remember about Drizzt other than that he's a non-evil drow?
Similarly, it's the same reason that an old man wizard (like Obi-wan Kenobi) works, but Zandalf the Off-White would not. It makes sense that mentors are old (how else did they learn more than the protagonist) and wise (which is what 'wizard' actually means). But once you strip "wise mentor" away from Gandalf, you don't have much left to work with and reimagine.
I feel inclined to argue that every work of fiction is a reinvention since everyone is telling the same story about the human experience but that's going off on a tangent.
I feel I made a mistake including the "especiall ones who ____" bit next to dwarves and elves. Frankly I know nothing (and, honestly, care little) about the Golarion setting. That really was not the main point.
The point I was attempting to make is that there are a number of things (elves, dwarves, etc) that exist with little variation in just about EVERY fantasy setting, as does the bad-guy-trying-to-be-good, wether it's a part-demon guy, a part undead guy, or a drow. The only difference is the specific bad good guy drow was too popular once and so we're not allowed to use it again. Why? You're restricting player choices based on some illusion that we can create things that are not derivative, first of all. Second, you shouldn't restrict players because you really liked/really hated this one book or really liked/really hated the attention it got.
Also, still don't see why the more cliche evil drow is okay and the less cliche good drow isn't.
I feel inclined to argue that every work of fiction is a reinvention since everyone is telling the same story about the human experience but that's going off on a tangent.
Not really. The point you're not yet seeing is that not every work of fiction is a reinvention. Some are simply copies.
Feckless youth seeks out wise mentor who provides him the tools he needs to face the big challenge and then disappears is archetypical. (Straight out of Campbell, in fact.)
Lyke Skyrunner seeks out Obi-two Kennobbi who provides him with a lightsword that he needs to face Garth Vadya is not archetypical. It's copyright infringement (or at best, parody).
Modern culture frowns on copying without reinvention.
Drizzt clones and Kender are killable on sight in my games with no alignment penalty and bonus xp.
This is why I always like Dwarves.
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Feckless youth seeks out wise mentor who provides him the tools he needs to face the big challenge and then disappears is archetypical. (Straight out of Campbell, in fact.) Lyke Skyrunner seeks out Obi-two Kennobbi who provides him with a lightsword that he needs to face Garth Vadya is not archetypical. It's copyright infringement (or at best, parody).
Modern culture frowns on copying without reinvention.
By the same token, "member of generally evil race/tribe/nation has redeeming qualities" has been done in any number of ways since forever, and there's room for more. "Good drow ranger do-gooder" is starting to get pretty specific within that field, though, and when you start giving him pet cats and scimitars... well, come on.
EDIT: Ninjad by thejeff.
First of all when have I said I ban anything... I discourage warn and explain. I don't stop players playing anything.
I play drow as monsters in-line with the description in the bestiary, if you want to be a monster that's brave of you dont expect a medal from me. People who play drow get so many advantages over other players playing core why should I give them even more advantages so they can outshine everybody else at the table 100% time.
Its my job as GM to make sure all of the players not just Mr Fo'Shizzle Sparkles get the spotlight and a time to shine.
You probably have never had to deal with three quarters your spotty faced gimboid friends (I was one of the spotty faced gimboids) wanting to play a good drow in Against the Giants or a good drow in The Slavers series.
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By the same token, "member of generally evil race/tribe/nation has redeeming qualities" has been done in any number of ways since forever, and there's room for more. "Good drow ranger do-gooder" is starting to get pretty specific within that field, though, and when you start giving him pet cats and scimitars... well, come on.
Modern culture frowns on copying without reinvention.
Exactly. If you want to play a good monster, why not make it,... oh, a duergar? I don't think I've seen one of those yet. On the other hand, my wastebasket is filled with Drizzt wannabes. ("But this one is different. His name is ... Brizzt, and he's half an inch taller than Drizzt was!")
Ironically, a non-evil drow/tiefling/goblin/etc. is much less "cliche" than the evil ones, yet the former was the star of a popular novel series and is thus unusable by anyone anymore.You've answered your own question, I'm afraid. Dragons guarding treasure hoard is a staple of fantasy fiction generally, going back at least to Beowulf; Drizzt is a specific expy of an overexposed popular novel series.
It's the reason that we still make science fiction movies involving faster-than-light travel, but none of them will have protagonists named Skywalker.
Basically, if you're going to steal -- and everyone does -- make your theft imaginative and non-obvious. Don't copy, re-invent. That's one reason that Gregory House works as a Sherlock Holmes expy; other than the name itself, there's little to directly tie him to his literary ancestor. And the personality of Holmes is so complex and compelling that it's worth revisiting. On the other hand, what does anyone really remember about Drizzt other than that he's a non-evil drow?
Similarly, it's the same reason that an old man wizard (like Obi-wan Kenobi) works, but Zandalf the Off-White would not. It makes sense that mentors are old (how else did they learn more than the protagonist) and wise (which is what 'wizard' actually means). But once you strip "wise mentor" away from Gandalf, you don't have much left to work with and reimagine.
I feel inclined to argue that every work of fiction is a reinvention since everyone is telling the same story about the human experience but that's going off on a tangent.
I feel I made a mistake including the "especiall ones who ____" bit next to dwarves and elves. Frankly I know nothing (and, honestly, care little) about the Golarion setting. That really was not the main point.
The point I was attempting to make is that there are a number of things (elves, dwarves, etc) that exist with little variation in just about...
I'm getting a bit tired of Tolkien fantasy actually. If you sit down, and clear your head a bit, as a dm and world builder it is actually easy to come up with something different to the norm. Dark Sun is an example, Lace and Steel with its centaur emphasis but no elves is another. A game I ran in zombie overrun Poland was horror fantasy but not a whit like typical dnd.