Lets discuss rogues before people start complaining they are over-powered

[avari3]

Kord_Avatar wrote:

Really? A Rogue is ALWAYS going to make those three attacks? At -2/-2/-7 to hit?

This. 2WF builds are notoriously underwhelming. I've seen the math showing Rangers are better off with a two hander and they get all the feats as bonus.

[DeciusBrutus]

TWF makes sense if you see it as the alternative to sword and board, and sacrifice some AC for additional attacks. However, nobody who is willing to lower their AC by that much even considers a shield an option.

Personally, there are lot of people better off with the discounted enhancement bonus to shield AC than with +1/2 str to damage.

[Jiminy]

Kord_Avatar wrote:

It's good damage, but it's not RELIABLE damage.

Precisely this.

There have been a multitude of statistical analysis done on melee damage outputs, and a TWF Rogue using SA equals a two handed critical warrior IF he hits every single time and gets SA every single time.

They're great, but it is not reliable.

[Zanathos]

Jiminy wrote:

Kord_Avatar wrote:

It's good damage, but it's not RELIABLE damage.

Precisely this.

There have been a multitude of statistical analysis done on melee damage outputs, and a TWF Rogue using SA equals a two handed critical warrior IF he hits every single time and gets SA every single time.

They're great, but it is not reliable.

I've had this discussion, at length, and similar ones involving other classes multiple times with multiple people. Preconceptions are difficult to change. Let's just say that I've had different experiences with rogues as a player and a GM and leave it at that.

Do rogues have some limitations? Certainly. A good player can easily circumvent them with the right choices of gear, feats, alternate advancement paths, and just good old fashioned smart game play. I've never been terribly impressed with 2 handed crit warriors and wizards. Warriors don't have the utility I like in characters(monks ARE my favorite class, followed by rogues and rangers) and wizards are pretty easily neutralized by any GM/player who decides to do so.

Anyway, I doubt that anything I say will really change people's minds about this. Tabletop isn't really the subject here, it's PFO and other MMO rogues. I hope GW goes away from the WoW-clone version of rogues in PFO, allowing the neat stuff that attracts most people to them in the 1st place(stealth, trap finding/disarming/creation/placement, pikcpocketing, lockpicking, and swashbuckling derring-do shennanigans) can be placed into PFO in a way to make them fun, valuable, and interesting without making them an unfair burden on players.

[Jiminy]

Oh, don't get me wrong. Rogues are far and away my favourite class which I have almost exclusively played in PnP and CRPGs for the last twenty years. I was merely making a remark about the damage aspect of them.