As my players have entered the third step book of the story, I've had more concerns pop out then me previously finding them overpowering my encounters. While they seem to be extremely happy to waltz trough half the stuff without a sweat (and they should, feeling powerful works) I now have other concerns I'm hoping to have some counsel on.
The first is the issue of my baron's wife, who, having taken the leadership feat as he hit level seven, suggested he'd like someone to compliment him well to handle the kingdom while he get's his hands dirty saving the country-side with his magister, headsman and marshall. For that part I was thinking of introducing him to 3 different candidates of various families, personalities and the likes and making him chose which one he'd like to get to know better. He wouldn't know the girl's class or stats, but all 3 would be a good match for the kingdom in any case, leadership isn't meant to be a downgrade after all.
As for the main quest, when I introduced the Varnhold Vanishing I had the baron's spymaster, currently residing in Restov, send gossip from the city telling them about the sudden lack of communication from Varnhold along with some of the town's npc's and random people asking Svetlana to message the baron to see what he was thinking about that. After seeing the lack of help from the sword lords and concern of what could happen to their own town, he decided to go to Varnhold. Now that's all fine and dandy, but since they knew where Varnhold was (having visited it for magical help a few sessions ago to remove a curse with the help of Maegar Varn's magister) they completely skipped every even on the map and went right to the town.
With this fact in mind and also from reading the sidequests present at the front and back of the book, I'm starting to feel like ditching every single side-quest, because while they seem fun (roc eggs for food is cool, but the reward and excuse to do the quest is rather excessive and overblown) the players don't have the time to handle people's whims like that any more. As such as I was wondering if someone else had done something similar, making new quests and tying the main event in different ways to introduce new things to the players.
By finding the NOMEN sign on the door of the inn in Varnhold, I had them meet the professor's assistant (the girl on the back cover) who was also searching for the professor. With her help at identifying the books the professor had, they found out that the Nomen Centaur tribe could be behind the town's problems, and after killing the spriggans they should head on there. Hopefully they will not murder the centaurs and I'l be able to use them to give tests of strength and faith to gain the centaur's respect, but until then, my playing are a bit too rational to lure in with traditional pathfinder/dndesque quests.
The side quests are certainly a potential ho-hum for players. After all, what ruler has the time to go on a glorified Easter Egg Hunt? I think the best way to seed these parts of the adventure is to either a) wait until the players have a reason to explore those hexes (the conclusion to book 3 will certainly give them an incentive to expand), or b) use the rumor tables and/or come up with your own.
Alternatively, you could potentially seed the quests through an NPC adviser who provides the Council with an update on, among other things, the concerns of the kingdom's citizens as well as what people are looking for. If this seems odd to your players, i.e. "why do we care if some chef is looking for eggs?", have the adviser respond along the lines of "My lord, I simply thought it might be worth noting for when you next go out to the wild to fortify our kingdom. Giving the people what they want, even if it seems rather mundane, can certainly make the populace happier. Nothing pleases a populace more than knowing that their leaders are listening to them after all." Note that taking this approach probably means that the better rewards for completing the quest would be something along the lines of a Loyalty bonus or a reduction in Unrest, etc.
The chef can, for instance, say "The Baron? Aye, he's a right proper noble. Cares about us he does. Why last Spring he heard that I was interested in making a massive omelet out of roc eggs for the annual Spring Festivus. Know what he did lad? Why, he risked his neck climbing up to a roc nest, fighting off an entire family of rocs, just to secure me a couple of eggs. How many barons do THAT fer their subjects eh?"
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I think the side quests are great as part of the overall portfolio of options available for the players to choose from. After all, it is their game more than the GMs in a sandbox style game.
I mostly have used them as background info and ways to introduce new NPCs to my players (the quests have to come from somewhere, right?) like a dragon naturalist who was interested in tatzlwyrm specimens to study, or the foreign druid looking for Roc eggs to replenish the species in his homeland, etc.
I suggest leaving threads for these sidequests laying about for your players to grab and unravel if they wish, otherwise leaving them in the background. Some GMs regularly notify players of current events, maybe some of these pop up again in those and intrigue the player.
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Or use different sidequests tailored to your players' interests. KM has a lot of built-in flexibility that way.
I did include some quests but had to downsize a lot of the rewards. And in any case my characters are crafting obsessed, one of them can pretty much make anything at his level without fail. They plan to make golems later, enchant all of their own items (already doing it) so their magic item ratio is sky rocketing.
I did include some quests but had to downsize a lot of the rewards. And in any case my characters are crafting obsessed, one of them can pretty much make anything at his level without fail. They plan to make golems later, enchant all of their own items (already doing it) so their magic item ratio is sky rocketing.
Just shows how different every group is. Mine are way behind WBL and are reluctant to keep anything they don't need because they'd rather donate it to the treasury to help expand the kingdom faster. As a result, I can make the quest rewards BP (or stuff that can easily translate into BP) and they're happy.
Yeah, the magister has personally hired 8 people to pump out masterwork weapons and armor to enchant in the future and to make extra money on the side from a personal workshop in the city. He pays all 8 of them I think 1 to .5 gold per day depending on who, and pays for the iron and materials himself. The baron makes wine and other alcohol in the castle with stuff he finds and sells it cheaply back to town (or gives it to new npc's) and the headsman still isn't doing much of a hobby for now.
Mine are obsessed with crafting, obviously with the best things available, and with the sheer amount of downtime I'l be seeing mithril chain shirts and mithril chestplates. I dread the alchemical golem at level 10 with his bomb throwing ability. An extra CR9 party member to follow them around.
If the PCs only focus on the main quest and any directly related side quests, won't that put them farther behind in terms of experience points than what is necessary?
Obviously you can add encounters to the main quest line, but is this something that GMs are finding that they need to do?
I can certainly see players not wanting to go hunting for roc eggs when there's bigger kingdom-affecting events going on, but I was under the impression that completing a large chunk of side quests is necessary to play the AP at the power levels it's designed for.
It is, but then again most people seem to go for broken combos and have strong synergy. Unless bad luck happens, being 1 level behind won't be a problem.
If the PCs only focus on the main quest and any directly related side quests, won't that put them farther behind in terms of experience points than what is necessary?
Obviously you can add encounters to the main quest line, but is this something that GMs are finding that they need to do?
I can certainly see players not wanting to go hunting for roc eggs when there's bigger kingdom-affecting events going on, but I was under the impression that completing a large chunk of side quests is necessary to play the AP at the power levels it's designed for.
Keep in mind too that a lot of GM's are ditching XP (particularly for KM) and simply leveling PCs up at appropriate times story wise. This is, in many respects, particularly advisable in KM because it is so easy for the party to run into a multitude of encounters that end up having them too high a level for big fights to be an appropriate challenge without reworking said encounters.
Ditching XP also makes sense from a verisimilitude aspect in the event of precisely what you describe. i.e. "Hmmmm, we know now that we have to go and kill Harguulka, but, there's no way we can expect to take him out currently. I know! Lets go kill some lizardfolk, then we'll be able to handle Mr. H.!" While this works from a mechanics standpoint, it certainly becomes very meta-gamey, and a lot of groups will dislike the feel of it.
It seems the real trick to KM is to remember that the kingdom is really the star of the campaign (or at least the 5th party member). As such, you need to try to figure out what motivates the players in relation to the kingdom. Easter Egg hunt not doing it for the party? Well, what if the kingdom breaks out in a plague and an npc cleric realizes that he can craft a cure, but he's going to need a Roc Egg for said cure. Now that Easter Egg hunt is suddenly a matter of life or death for one of the party members.
/shrug Hopefully most groups won't have a huge issue with it, but its certainly something that I can easily see coming up from time to time. Particularly if the group really gets into their characters and the character of the campaign rather than treating it like a video game.
Keep in mind too that a lot of GM's are ditching XP (particularly for KM) and simply leveling PCs up at appropriate times story wise. This is, in many respects, particularly advisable in KM because it is so easy for the party to run into a multitude of encounters that end up having them too high a level for big fights to be an appropriate challenge without reworking said encounters.
I switched to the slow XP track, though I'm still reluctant to do away with XP completely. Many of my players enjoy feel of advancement that XP "tangibly" gives them. It shows progression for them. Heck, occasionally they'll even flip back through all their game nights to see when their "Big XP" nights occurred. I love slowing things down a bit because I have all kinds of story I like to tell, but taking away an element of the game aspect that they all seem to have so much fun with still leaves me hesitant.
Additionally, I don't mind if my PCs have a few encounters in there that aren't as challenging to them as they could be. They've gone through a lot in my AP, and we're not finished with Book 2 yet! It's great when they get to see how awesome their characters have become by slaughtering the enemy occasionally. They enjoy that too, as opposed to every combat situation being a complete resource-draining ordeal that they scrape by on (not saying that KM is the latter at all, though from what I've read on these forums so many wish it was!). I make sure those fights that need to be incredibly tough are, and just let it roll on otherwise. Again, that's part of the beauty of a sandbox! Sometimes they go places where the fight will be tougher--or nigh impossible!--without realizing it, and sometimes they go where the fight's just really simple. In the end, it's based on their choices and how things play out from them. I'm cool with this! =)
Ditching XP also makes sense from a verisimilitude aspect in the event of precisely what you describe. i.e. "Hmmmm, we know now that we have to go and kill Harguulka, but, there's no way we can expect to take him out currently. I know! Lets go kill some lizardfolk, then we'll be able to handle Mr. H.!" While this works from a mechanics standpoint, it certainly becomes very meta-gamey, and a lot of groups will dislike the feel of it.
This doesn't become a problem with me because I've thrown other challenges into the game. When my PCs found Hargulka's lair, there were two aspects that made it virtually impossible to simply walk in and take out: First, Hargulka had an army of about 75 trolls and 50 lizardfolk encamped just outside their front door (thanks Dudemeister!), and, second, Mivon! Though the PCs never realized it, Mivon had laid claim to all the territory south of the Tuskwater as theirs a long time ago, and when Mivon learned that the leaders of this fledgling kingdom to the north had begun surveying their territory with the intent of possibly claiming it (and toss in that Corax and his lumberjacks when back to their home in Mivon and reported how this pathetic group of people sided with a fey and kicked him out of territory that was unclaimed and open for good lumbering), well, Mivon was none too pleased with them! Thus, the political game began between their two nations. If the PCs just moved an army into Mivon's territory to defeat Hargulka, that would be construed as an act of war against Mivon. This led to an entire night of political maneuverings, as well as definitive prospects for long-term dealings that could end in alliance or war--who knows!
I've loved running this AP! Just so much to do!
@Sub-Creator: Excellent points and thanks for sharing. I should have stated better that going with XP is certainly fine as well and can absolutely be made to work. More to the point, I also agree that XP can be treasured by a number of players as its still one of those "sacred cows" so to speak and is at least a semi-tangible sign of progress.
As to Mr. H.: Excellent job of creating a great way to slow down your players without forcing their hand. More importantly, I love the idea of bringing Mivon into the mix. I think that may be one of the things that the AP really lacks is the reactions of the other River Kingdoms, and to an extent, even Brevoy as the new kingdom starts to expand. (caveat: I'm still reading book 5 at this point so some of this may be cleared up shortly).
If the PCs just moved an army into Mivon's territory to defeat Hargulka, that would be construed as an act of war against Mivon.
I went the opposite way, making Mivon (or more specifically, their merchants' guild) the ones who offered the reward for stopping the trolls. I figured from the location that they might also be attacking targets in Mivon, and it made more sense for Mivon to want rid of them than Brevoy.
Yeah, the magister has personally hired 8 people to pump out masterwork weapons ... He pays all 8 of them I think 1 to .5 gold per day depending on who, and pays for the iron and materials himself.
Hmm - they should be making more than that OR you should be charging him loads of cash for failed crafting rolls. *evil grin* The Craft Roll means the smith can earn a salary of Roll/2 in GP per week. Masterwork required a DC of 20 - so they must be making (at least that) that on a regular basis. Which means 10gp per week minimum for a decent craftsman.
He doesn't fail any roll, his craft is simply too high. And besides he takes 10 on it, doesn't mins taking longer for 0% failure. However he does pay his craftsmen the required amount. They have been very fair with money. They even built an entirely new cavern town for the kobold community in exchange for them vacating the silver mine. If they find silver and copper they put it in the town fund to finance free booze for the entire city until supplies last after big adventures. 1 mug of beer per citizen does wonders to make people happy once in awhile.
I managed to think out the 3 future wives I'l have my player chose from. 1 will come from the far south from whatever country worships Sarenrea the most. A young blind oracle a tiny bit on the religious side, but wise for her age and very capable. She would tie in to his back story the most if he investigates her. The second is the second daughter of a minor noble family who is trying their best to ship their tomboy of a daughter away. Very capable and martial, she might make less of a good queen then the other 3, however she will be useful in other future events, and is the most apt at not being assassinated. The third is rather haughty and is the fifth daughter of a high ranking noble. Without much of a chance to see some of family's wealth trinkle down to her, she wants to marry to a fresh place, even if it means starting out small and growing big. I'l probably have her be a barb unless I can figure a more useful social power class. While rather power hungry, she is the most apt at ruling and will do good for the Barony.
With some positives and negatives, all 3 will be good choices, since they result from the leadership feat.