Another thing about the two, is that there are a lot of bloodlines to choose from, and many of those are flavorful. If you allow reskinning you have a ridiculous number of choices to choose from. School's I don't find as flavorful, and bloodline arcana's can define the class. Bloodline arcana's like sage and sylvan give you pets, and sage and empyreal change your casting stat. School's can never do that. In fact one of the first choices as a wizard is to pick 2 schools to cast less. The downside is most bloodlines are awful, but the same can be said of most of the schools. The schools and sub school's will always give you an extra spell per spell level to make up for it,(except universalist), and there are a few good schools that give amazing abilities such as teleportation subschool.
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To be honest, if you knew you were up against a wizard, is not his spellbook and/or familiar something you would target?
If it is easier than killing the wizard sure, but I am still waiting for "how" to be answered without invoking GM Fiat to include stupid NPC's that do things like knock the wizard unconscoius and wait for the wizard and the party to "kill" them.
Yeah the spellbook can be lost or destroyed by circumstantial means, but to target it is something I have never seen explained well.We once had an antagonist Wizard pay to have the spellbook stolen so that he could 1) deprive his opponent of that much needed item and 2) expand his own spellbook in the process.
It doesn't take a bizarre turn of events for one wizard to covet another wizard's spellbook, or for an opponent to want the party's wizard neutered... in fact, it could be argued that the only way a wizard's spellbook isn't targetted is by GM fiat. Generally speaking, reasonable precautions is all it takes to keep it from happening - just like getting killed in your sleep.
HOW was the spellbook stolen?
For something so easy nobody can seem to answer it without GM Fiat.
They are big on personality only if you use sin magic. Otherwise its a blank slate. That's fluff your applying to the school yourself. Usually I'm against premade fluff, but I'm good with reskinning and having a lot of options.
They are big on personality only if you use sin magic. Otherwise its a blank slate. That's fluff your applying to the school yourself. Usually I'm against premade fluff, but I'm good with reskinning and having a lot of options.Sin/Virtue magic is just the Thassilonian's overdramatic term for school specialisation.
Is it? I thought the focus on restricted schools was about "purging impurity" or something like that. Oh well, I've only seen the archetype once.
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I like wizards for my skill monkeys. All that intellect makes up for a bad charisma pretty quickly. Being able to afford to put points into so may skills.
I'm not sure I'd consider a Wizard a better skill monkey than a Sage Sorcerer, unless you're putting all of those skill points in every Knowledge skill.
I'd rather have 2 Knowledge skills in Class, plus Bluff, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device, personally.
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The wizard is significantly more powerful and can get as many spell slots as the sorcerer thanks to sin magic.
With currently rules and items, the sorcerer is far more versatile in spell selection than the wizard.
Between the Ring of Spell Knowledge and Page of Spell Knowledge, a sorcerer has access to:
- all sorcerer spells of 4th level and lower
- arcane spells of 3rd level and lower (including heals) not on the sorcerer spell list.
- an expanded selection of level 5+ spells
- the ability to dynamically choose which spells he is using.
Of note: quick study allows a wizard to fill an empty spell slot in 1 minute (useless in combat). A ring of spell knowledge requires only a standard action and can be any arcane spell of 3rd to 4th level and lower the sorcerer is familiar with or has ever experienced/seen cast.
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Your comparing the ability to sacrifice spells to spam a single (1) spell, chosen when the feat is gained, spontaneously, at the cost of two feats, to the ability to spend a standard action to spontaneously cast any spell? Without spending any feats?
As for highest spell level, 60% of their careers a sorcerer and wizard will have access to spells of the same maximum level.
Your comparing the ability to sacrifice spells to spam a single (1) spell, chosen when the feat is gained, spontaneously, at the cost of two feats, to the ability to spend a standard action to spontaneously cast any spell? Without spending any feats?
As for highest spell level, 60% of their careers a sorcerer and wizard will have access to spells of the same maximum level.
Hmm.. Controversial topic.. OP posts once then is never seen from again.. Possible "Flamming" thread?
Still.. It's a fun debate to have. So as to which one is better. I see that you're ok with it, but if 40% of my career I was 1 spell level behind another arcane caster I would be very upset. That, plus the wizards school powers, the massive spell options, the ability to tailor my spells towards a mission, means that a wizard for me is the better spell-caster.
Now the OP asked which one they should try out. And to me, a beginner would be better served with a Sorc. There is much less book-work and planning involved.
What spells do you recommend placing in a ring of spell knowledge?
Looking at it further, The RoSK has a few downsides that would limit them to out of combat usage. They hold 1 spell of lvs 1-4. You need to be wearing it, so they waste actions retrieving the ring / removing the old one / placing the new one.
I'd rather just carry a selection of scrolls, which the wizard has as a class feature.
The RoSK seems an expensive way to get a small amount of out of combat utility.
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Sorcerers and Wizards have an interesting relationship regarding their spellcasting (setting aside actual class abilities). One has what the other wants. Sorcerers generally crave more spell knowledge whereas wizards idolize spontaneous flexibility. At the end of the day, it comes to personal preference.
In order to answer the OP, I say both.
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Looking at it further, The RoSK has a few downsides that would limit them to out of combat usage. They hold 1 spell of lvs 1-4. You need to be wearing it, so they waste actions retrieving the ring / removing the old one / placing the new one.
I'd rather just carry a selection of scrolls, which the wizard has as a class feature.
The RoSK seems an expensive way to get a small amount of out of combat utility.
They hold 1 spell at a time. The choice of spell is not permanent. It can be changed as a standard action.
Need a spell you don't have: spend a standard action, Make a DC20 spellcraft check, cast away. This includes arcane spells not on the sorcerer spell list.
By comparison, a wizard with fast study is restricted to class only spells, the spell must be in his spellbook, it takes a 10 rounds to memorize, and can only be cast once per slot filled.
A wizard not burning feats would require 15 minutes to accomplish the same task and also have to decide in advance how many slots he's going to fill.
If you don't see the power of being able to dynamically select spells, your either being deliberately obtuse or fail to understand the concept of Schrodinger's Wizard. Either way, there is no point in arguing with you.
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Sorcerers generally crave more spell knowledge whereas wizards idolize spontaneous flexibility.
This balance has been removed from Pathfinder.
Sorcerers now have both spontaneous flexibility and access to more spells than most wizards.
There is no wizard equivalent to Rings of Spell Knowledge or Pages of Spell Knowledge.
Looking at it further, The RoSK has a few downsides that would limit them to out of combat usage. They hold 1 spell of lvs 1-4. You need to be wearing it, so they waste actions retrieving the ring / removing the old one / placing the new one.
I'd rather just carry a selection of scrolls, which the wizard has as a class feature.
The RoSK seems an expensive way to get a small amount of out of combat utility.
They hold 1 spell at a time. The choice of spell is not permanent. It can be changed as a standard action.
Need a spell you don't have: spend a standard action, Make a DC20 spellcraft check, cast away. This includes arcane spells not on the sorcerer spell list.
By comparison, a wizard with fast study is restricted to class only spells, the spell must be in his spellbook, it takes a 10 rounds to memorize, and can only be cast once per slot filled.
A wizard not burning feats would require 15 minutes to accomplish the same task and also have to decide in advance how many slots he's going to fill.
If you don't see the power of being able to dynamically select spells, your either being deliberately obtuse or fail to understand the concept of Schrodinger's Wizard. Either way, there is no point in arguing with you.
Ok, what happens when that ring isn't available? You know what they say about builds that require specific items...
Pearls of power give more slots, that's always something. There are several feats that allow you to pick a favorite spell, or to use one spell slot for several.
Of course all this depends on money. Usually it doesn't rain money.
They hold 1 spell at a time. The choice of spell is not permanent. It can be changed as a standard action.
Need a spell you don't have: spend a standard action, Make a DC20 spellcraft check, cast away. This includes arcane spells not on the sorcerer spell list.
By comparison, a wizard with fast study is restricted to class only spells, the spell must be in his spellbook, it takes a 10 rounds to memorize, and can only be cast once per slot filled.
A wizard not burning feats would require 15 minutes to accomplish the same task and also have to decide in advance how many slots he's going to fill.
If you don't see the power of being able to dynamically select spells, your either being deliberately obtuse or fail to understand the concept of Schrodinger's Wizard. Either way, there is no point in arguing with you.
Wow. Calm down, its a friendly discussion here.
I see now how you're using the ring. It hadn't occurred to me to do it that way, and it's not a bad idea, but suffers from the needing a source from which to place the spell in the ring. It still keeps it's best usage for out of combat utility since its a standard to swap out the spell.
Better than I originally thought, but I still prefer scrolls over the ring.
Ok, what happens when that ring isn't available? You know what they say about builds that require specific items...It is not build specific. It gives any sorcerer build greater flexibility than the wizard.
It gives them the power to know every spell from 1-9 and prepare them on the day to day in a minute?(supposing a free spell slot and fast study). I'm not sure if its that good.
How does the ring work anyway? The way its worded in the text is a bit awkward. Is it one spell per ring while you wear the ring, or is it one ring level 4 can teach the sorcerer every spell from 1-4 one at a time?
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It hadn't occurred to me to do it that way, and it's not a bad idea, but suffers from the needing a source from which to place the spell in the ring. It still keeps it's best usage for out of combat utility since its a standard to swap out the spell.
The source is the sorcerer's own experience. Any spell he has ever seen, been affected by, or has personal knowledge of.
I agree with the typical usage being out of combat. Until you run into a situation where having just the right spell can end the encounter. If that "perfect" spell is of 4th level or lower, you have it.
The pages of spell knowledge are used at higher level. Rather than purchase scrolls for situational spells, you purchase the pages and always have the spells available. They are essentially extra spell slots for the sorcerer.
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The source is the sorcerer's own experience. Any spell he has ever seen, been affected by, or has personal knowledge of.
I agree with the typical usage being out of combat. Until you run into a situation where having just the right spell can end the encounter. If that "perfect" spell is of 4th level or lower, you have it.
The pages of spell knowledge are used at higher level. Rather than purchase scrolls for situational spells, you purchase the pages and always have the spells available. They are essentially extra spell slots for the sorcerer.
I disagree on the the source as their personal experience. What you're trying to tell me is that a sorc sees a spell cast once, then knows it so well they can now teach a ring the spell (provided they make the spellcraft check). If he knows it so well he can now teach a ring, why would he need the ring in the first place.
I see it differently. I see the two requirements as needing to be fulfilled at the exact moment the sorc teaches the spell into the ring. If you have a scroll, it's as easy as holding the scroll and making the check. If you have access to another spellcaster or active spell, you can do it then.
Given the nature of what the ring is doing. It makes more sense to read the "through study", as to having access to the spell at the time it goes into the ring. Like I said, great to have scrolls around with the ring as you wont need to burn your scrolls, but "seeing" a spell once would not be enough. And if one of my players tried to pull that, I would say, fine, you train the ring, unfortunately, there is no "retrain" mechanism in the item description, so you get that spell and that one only for this ring.
As far as spell knowledge pages.. They cost 40 times more than a wizards scrolls. And If I ever need a spell 40 or more times, I think a wand would be a better option. Scrolls are essentially extra slots for wizards at 1/40th the price.
Agree totally but a human or half-elf sorcerer can still achieve a sufficient degree of spell choice with ALL the added benefits.
Agreed. If I was looking for versatility in my sorc.. I'd pick Human all the way for extra spells known. The Paragon surge thing would never fly with my DM.
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I might - Half-Elves need all the love they can get.Agree totally but a human or half-elf sorcerer can still achieve a sufficient degree of spell choice with ALL the added benefits.Agreed. If I was looking for versatility in my sorc.. I'd pick Human all the way for extra spells known. The Paragon surge thing would never fly with my DM.
Probably. I don't think we've had a half-elf but maybe once in our entire time gaming. So maybe it would give them a boost.
Even so, it's sketchy as to whether or not the combo works as well as advertised. I know many point to the "Once made, these choices cannot be changed." line in expanded arcana to argue that subsequent uses of the combo result in the same spell known and not a new one.
As far as spell knowledge pages.. They cost 40 times more than a wizards scrolls. And If I ever need a spell 40 or more times, I think a wand would be a better option. Scrolls are essentially extra slots for wizards at 1/40th the price.
Staves seem to be awfully overpriced as well, wonder why that could be, wands are just such a better deal...
As has already been stated, Sorcerors now have MANY options to increase spells known, rings/pages being only one means. Racial Favored Class bonus, Extra Arcana Feat, Vest of Mnemonic Hoo-Ha (even if you don't want to wear it all the time, great for utility when you have time to change cloak/vest and back, and damn cheap to boot, if you do wear it all the time it basically means as much flexibility as a Wizard with a Bonded Item), and Arcane Bloodline Powers (your own BL or via Eld. Heritage) being some others. Tattooed Sorceror's ability to gain an SLA of one of your spells known (at the time), also can allow broader effective 'spells known' since you can then re-train that spell known while retaining the SLA (which can be 're-trained' as well). Their Spell Tattoo is similar, albeit with the limitations of scrolls (once you use it, it's gone, and no special bonuses applicable to your own spellcasting). Many Bloodline Powers effectively replicate spells as well. And of course for REALLY rarely used spells, Sorcs can buy the same scroll the Wizard does to scribe it in their book and scribe more scrolls, but they can just save the scroll itself for use (possibly with the Vest of Mnemonic Hoo-Ha, not consuming the spell and using their own casting stats).
The point being that just pointing at the standard spell known list (+bloodline spells) and saying that is harshly limiting just doesn't acknowledge the actual reality for sorcerors who have these options to choose from, and even a partial utilization of these options is enough for most people to say 'OK, now that is ENOUGH spells known that i'm not constrained'.
As far as spell knowledge pages.. They cost 40 times more than a wizards scrolls. And If I ever need a spell 40 or more times, I think a wand would be a better option. Scrolls are essentially extra slots for wizards at 1/40th the price.
You can take the Feat multiple times, specifying a different spell each time. Each time you use the spell, you are independently selecting the Feat, just as if you had taken it independently. It doesn't matter whether or not you already really have the Feat for the first time you're casting the spell, and it doesn't matter for subsequent castings whether you have the Feat(s) or have cast it before. Great Wand spell for Half-Elves.
Pages or Spell Knowledge are FANTASTIC! Do to how magical item crafting works, the sorcerer can just research more spells(at more time and money though). Possessing the page is a really loss term. I assume that means on hand or on person.
I always liked sorcerers better anyways for the cha.
Wizard is overpowered if your DM never makes you worry about protecting your spellbook, and never sunders your component pouch, bonded ring, or kills your wand using familiar.
but to a lot of DMs in my area
class features and feats are valid targets. especially when the responsible Achilles heel is so fragile.
I should start up a thread asking if clerics and druids are overpowered because they don't have such a huge Achilles heel.
Monks are pretty OP too by that logic.
Although a martial artist with dragon style and fighter feats isn't doing too bad.
Ofcourse my sorcerer now has his books of pages of spell knowledge as a weak point.
Monks are pretty OP too by that logic.
Bonus points for being dependent on not wearing a shirt?
Wizard = Flexibility
Sorcerer = Blaster
A sorcerer needs to carry a LOT more scrolls then a wizard if he wants to be prepared for any situation.
These items don't give a sorcerer instant access to every spell in the sorcerer /wizard list. there are definite rules on how you add spells to these items. The Page of Spell knowledge has to be specifically created with that spell it's going to grant.The wizard is significantly more powerful and can get as many spell slots as the sorcerer thanks to sin magic.With currently rules and items, the sorcerer is far more versatile in spell selection than the wizard.
Between the Ring of Spell Knowledge and Page of Spell Knowledge, a sorcerer has access to:
- all sorcerer spells of 4th level and lower
- arcane spells of 3rd level and lower (including heals) not on the sorcerer spell list.
- an expanded selection of level 5+ spells
- the ability to dynamically choose which spells he is using.
Of note: quick study allows a wizard to fill an empty spell slot in 1 minute (useless in combat). A ring of spell knowledge requires only a standard action and can be any arcane spell of 3rd to 4th level and lower the sorcerer is familiar with or has ever experienced/seen cast.
False.
When required to be able to cast a spell to make a wondrous item, you can instead add 5 to the spellcraft check (which you can take 10 on)
Pages of Spell Knowledge allows a sorcerer to research spell (abit at WAY higher cost of time and money)
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Wizard = Flexibility
Sorcerer = BlasterA sorcerer needs to carry a LOT more scrolls then a wizard if he wants to be prepared for any situation.
When you have a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail
The trick to playing a sorcerer is to pick spell that handle multiple situations and being able to solve problems by casting multiple of the same spell and spont meta-magic.
Wizard = infinite possibilities
Sorcerer = Many possibilities at once
Wizard benefits more from a player's skill.
Sorcerer benefits more from a player's ability to build well.
False.
When required to be able to cast a spell to make a wondrous item, you can instead add 5 to the spellcraft check (which you can take 10 on)
Pages of Spell Knowledge allows a sorcerer to research spell (abit at WAY higher cost of time and money)
The item requisite specifically says "creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page " I'm going to assume that this operates the way scrolls do, ergo. it is NOT bypassable.
Unfortunately the rules don't work that way. Every item with a spell listed has the "must be able to cast this requirement". Only wands, scrolls, and staffs make the explicit exception saying you can't bybass the requirement by increasing the spellcraft check DC.
You can assume things all you want though. I can't stop you.
Your comparing the ability to sacrifice spells to spam a single (1) spell, chosen when the feat is gained, spontaneously, at the cost of two feats, to the ability to spend a standard action to spontaneously cast any spell? Without spending any feats?
As for highest spell level, 60% of their careers a sorcerer and wizard will have access to spells of the same maximum level.
Not exactly. Any even level other than 2 and 20 the sorcerer has 3 slots and 1 spell known of his highest level. The specialist wizard has 3 slots and 4 spells known. The sorcerer cannot even use expanded arcana to get extras because he doesn't get a feat at the right level. The wizard chooses which spells to prepare. The sorcerer has no choice since he only knows the one spell. And then next level when the sorcerer gets his second spell known and his bloodline spell and can take expanded arcana if there's something else he needs urgently the wizard is casting the next higher level of spell.
The only options are the dubious UE items. Any GM that lets you get away with PoSK crafting without the spell or cheese the RoSK the way you claim is a failure as a GM for letting you walk all over him. Protecting the table from overly expansive readings of badly written splat rules is the GM's job and some of us play with competent GMs.
Expect an actual GM who isn't a struggling neophyte to shut those down hard.
Have you even seen the cost for PoSK? A Sorcerer dumping too much of his money into that is going to be in serious trouble.
I like their existence because it gives sorcerers infinite potential. But practically it will just end up being a few more spells known far below their max level.
PoKS is not game breaking, but they are fun. Any competent GM would see that :P
EDIT: My actual GM doesn't have a problem with PoKS, but then again he looked at the time and money needed to make them.
RoSK text says "Thereafter..." not "Until retaught". Cannot retrain them. Awful to buy them used.
Also says "...of a single spell..." so wearing a second does nothing. But ring merchant not say that, heh heh.
Back to original question, Sorcerer much better. Ever tasted that junk in spell component pouches? Totally ruins the person's flavor.
RoSK text says "Thereafter..." not "Until retaught". Cannot retrain them. Awful to buy them used.
Also says "...of a single spell..." so wearing a second does nothing. But ring merchant not say that, heh heh.
Back to original question, Sorcerer much better. Ever tasted that junk in spell component pouches? Totally ruins the person's flavor.
I don't care much for the rings.
Now Pages of Spell knowledge on the other hand...
I wouldn't say sorcerers are better...
It's like the difference between chocolate and strawberry ice-cream. Both end horribly if you're lactose intolerant.
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Even as a player I don't like that the wizards can, given time, learn all the spells of the list. It probably sounds stupid but I do like limitations, for story's sake.
Moreover, my personal taste is that magic should be a strange talent. A taint even, albeit powerful and with some benefits. An art, something that can be practised but with little to zero formal study. I'm not happy with the idea of schools of magic (except in Warhammer Fantasy, because it mixed the idea of "taint" and Academia).
Mechanically speaking, I also prefer the spontaneous casting.
Give me the sorcerer any time, fellas!