And on that note, I will be out of touch for a few days due to holidays, and will join back in after that. I think reducing ki pool to 1/3 + Cha would be good. I don't se an issue with Challenging Strike for all the same reasons everyone else has stated, primarily the restricted situational mechanics tied to it.
As stated previously, a Sword Saint can do up to 10d6 sneak damage swapping out the mount entirely for it. Here we swap out mount for 5 tricks and poison use. But he can only sneak for 4d6 max, unless he takes the Hidden Blade Order.
Also, let's remember, this guy ONLY has light armor and buckler proficiency. I'll need to rember to change the weapons on the list too, and remove any that are martial and just leave the samurai and ninja exotics, since he's prof with martial weapons. Alright, see everyon in a few days. :D
Have a good vacation!
We'll miss you ;-;
@Elghinn; hope you have a good holiday then.
So should we be moving on to the next one, should we wait or does the Shogun's Shadow still need further discussion?
I doubt raider is happy with the shogun's shadow. So we should probably wait.
@Raider: the problem with comparing any other class or hybrid to a 1st lvl rogue/ ninja is that rogue/ninja are mechanically weaker than almost every other class. The higher in lvl you go, the more evident this is. Not meaning to bring up old stuff... But if you look at that free form class system, you can see that some classes just don't stack up against others.
If you take a fighter or rogue as a primary class for any MCA, there is just flat out less to work/ trade with. Just by the numbers alone, rogues could afford a full BaB and either another good save, or better weapon suite. Fighters can afford another good save and at least 4 skills/ lvl and more class skills to boot. This is in comparison to other base classes, and they still trail behind in points and power lvls. That's why you see everyone home brewing fighter/ rogue/ whatever else "fixes", because everyone knows there is a deficiency even if they can't put their finger on exactly what or where it is.
Taking the Samurai as is and the preexisting sword saint archetype as a guide, there is no way that a rogue/ninja can come close to balancing. You may be right about the orders, but the base class would suffer to the point of being less than a full samurai or ninja if you limit it too much.
Byrd- freeform class systems just don't work in pathfinder, so please stop using one as a comparison.
Ok, so how did they create the class system with any form or thought to balance? I'm not saying that the specific table that rynjin came up with is the definitive answer. I'm saying that there is a formula where the sum of a classes total abilities and stats = a predetermined placement on the scale of balance. Look at it however and call it whatever you want, but it exists, and MCAs use it as a fundamental creation concept. Denying that there is some kind of mathematical value to balance a system based on mathematical principles is a flawed logic at BEST.
OSW had it right when he said that it takes an artistic approach to create an MCA (which I still believe is a wonderful and revolutionary idea and advancement for the PF system specifically, and d20 system in general), but if you don't explore and understand the principles of the system used to create the art, then you are limiting your self in what you can create if you have any mind for balance.
By all means, do what you will and go forth with my full blessing and support! I was just offering a perspective on approaching the concept that could be used (or not) to help anyone be able to contribute with the ability to come a lot closer to hitting a balance point on the first try.
Cheers!
Byrd- freeform class systems just don't work in pathfinder, so please stop using one as a comparison.
While we are on the subject, why were you comparing it's combat ability to ninja(a utility class) and it's utility abilities to the samurai(a combat class)? Also why did your response to my statement seemed to completely ignore the fact that I was talking about reducing it to 3/4 bab, which quite frankly would make it worse than a ninja at EVERYTHING. It would be worse at fighting and worse at utility aka it will be worse. I this class is better than the cavalier at skills/utility, better than the ninja at combat, and doesn't match or overshadow either at their strengths, then it was a success as an MCA hands down. Literally the only thing I agree with is nerfing the ki pool for regular cavs and samurais. I agreed with elghin on reducing the ki pool and was the first to suggest limiting it to light armor.
@Byrdology
Also, mathematics only go so far without getting into theoretical quantum-ing; sure, you can divine the origin of the universe through mathematics, but can you attempt to determine the overall value of adding ray of enfeeblement to the cleric list to balance out against the addition of several high-str low level mobs for the bestiary, all pre-print, within the few months you have before needing it -done-? If so, get yourself a television show and have a beer with Hawkings.
@Toaster
This class is superior in combat to the samurai and can keep up with the ninja on skills- even proving superior in certain cases, notably stealth and disguise for the hidden blade.
Toaster, please take a careful look at the class and compare it to the ninja. Look at skills bonuses, saves, damage potential (bearing in mind the sheer advantage of gaining an extra attack via ki or making multiple sneak attacks in a turn). Can you HONESTLY tell me that this class does not, in bursts at low levels, overpower both samurai and ninja?
Whew. Okay, there we go. Sorry if I'm getting mildly testy, but I'm getting rather tired of this class- honestly, I might just let this drop for now so we can clear up the issues in-house a month or two down the road, as bad as it is to do that. Or maybe pull Flak in here to take a peek and lend a hand.
Hey guys, quick off-topic thing:
My Saint class PDF just finally got uploaded to the Paizo store, so if you would check it out and possibly write a review for it on there, I'd really appreciate it!
Yay! No worries cartmanbeck, I'll check it out tonight and write a review.
Don't forget to check out the Direlock and yes, I'd love reviews, comments or questions. I answered some of cartmanbecks comments and queries here .
(back to thread business)
As a happy bystander of this process, I suggest that the current MCA be set aside and picked up later when everyone has fresh eyes. It feels like there is tension clogging up the creative juices at the moment.
Just my opinion, of course.
Uh this is a little delayed but... as far as the Primal Avatar goes...
I like it! Thank you for putting it on the wiki page. It mostly matches up with my original idea. I was out of town on a quest of my own and didn't have access to a cpu until just this week, and I just now got around to looking into it.
My idea was that the synthesist was too powerful but looked a lot like a barbarian raging- the hp of a synthesised summoner looks a lot like the hp of a raging barbarian, evolution points added up to a nat attack pure barbarian I was making at the time. The only REAL downside to the synthesized summoner (as the GM) is it's more or less permanent and is good for things other than battle. Raging is only good for battle. At the time it seemed logical to solve one with the other, then I found you guys and thought, "here are people who know what it's like."
The other idea I had was to make a rage power that was good for 2 evolution points, fun idea for a Summoner pulling from Barbarian, if you ever decide to do something like that. Kinda like a Mad Dog, but more like a Mad Monster. IDK I got my dream class published. I'm happy.
Only thing is right now, you get 1 temp HP and darkvision for 4 rounds+CON mod at level 1. Thats it, other than normal Barbarian stuff. Did miss something? At level 1 a normally Barbarian would whoop Primal Avatar butt. My idea is simple you get a Primal manifestation at every ODD level starting at level 1. That way you have something to use at level 1 other than your wits. Same number of Primal manifestations, just 1 level sooner. I know that translates to a rage power at 1st level, and thats a no-no, which is why, I think rage powers should be worth three evolution points OR thrown out the window. I also know 1 Evolution point=1 feat and 1 rage power=1 feat, so that DOESN'T add up. but the whole point of these Archetypes is they are not quite as good at either class but are good at both and great at what they do. Right now the Primal Avatar still can have 10 rage powers. which is just as good as a normal Barbarian, but evolution points can be both better and worse than the rage power equal (lesser beast totem > claws lesser beast totem=claws+improved damage claws lesser beast totem<claws+reach claws+improved damage claws Animal Furry's bite/=/ bite at all) So as you can see the entire situation is f++@ed up.
So my solution is either throw rage powers out the window or make rage powers harder to get. Personally I feel we/you should throw rage powers out the window. But hey, just the idea's dad speaking.
The voice of the idea's Dad is a loud one indeed.
You made a long kinda cramped post. Could you make a tl;dr that specifies what you want changed about the MCA in simple terms?
#Primal Avatar: Well that horse has bolted for the moment - the MCP crew can look at and take on those suggestions when we take it into editing.
#Shogun's Shadow - I'm thinking the same thing here - we'll get to the BAB and OP questions in editing.
Here's the rest of the waiting list:
Cleanser of the Faith (Browman)
Swashbuckling Assassin (Alfray)
Arcane Archer (Kyras)
Remorseless Assassin (Kyras)
Symbiote Gunner (OSW)
So someone want to post Browman's Cleanser of the Faith?
@55hi55 - glad you like the curremt version of "our" treatment of your idea! We had plenty of creative input here and there were lots of ideas on the thread on how to fully accommodate the original intent. We'll likely get in touch at a later date and take a look at your concerns regarding the mechanical approach or flavor design! By all means hang around and throw yourself into the mix if you're interested or if a particular concept buzzes you...
Or, while Elghinn's gone we can look at the Primal Avatar some more... ;)
I'm going to throw my vote in for fine tuning some of the MCAs we've already covered, as I remember it being said that the Blood Pool of the Bloodborn Magus could do with some tweaking (making the higher level abilitis cost more than one point).
Alfray: I believe the solution to that one was that you could not buy more extra uses of a bloodline ability than it already has. So a 7/day could be bought 7 extra times, a 1/day could be bought 1 extra time, and non-instant abilities could be bought in 1 minute bursts.
#Primal Avatar: After the discussion about the Shogun's Shadow I found it useful to take some sample levels of a base class and its MCA and compare the two. It really helped me understand the differences in power and flexibility when I compared a level 8 samurai to a level 8 shogun's shadow. I really felt like it was a clearer way to assess the power of the Shogun's Shadow than it was to compare it with Ninja, ranger, fight, so on.
I really feel like taking a cross sample of a few eidolon builds and compared it to a standard barbarian build would be useful in establishing its power and utility.
I don't really have the attention span to do something like that right this moment however.
Huh. I just discovered that Necromancers of the Northwest created a Words mystery on their blog in the same days as me. How weird. Very differenti from mine, though.^^
I was thinking that we could add some fluff text to the next PDFs.^^ Personally, I'd love to write a story about the Beastbrewer or the Philologist...
Hey guys, quick off-topic thing:
My Saint class PDF just finally got uploaded to the Paizo store, so if you would check it out and possibly write a review for it on there, I'd really appreciate it!
Yay! No worries cartmanbeck, I'll check it out tonight and write a review.
Don't forget to check out the Direlock and yes, I'd love reviews, comments or questions. I answered some of cartmanbecks comments and queries here .
(back to thread business)
and as of now I own both ;)...I don't know if I should do it too or not...
Huh. I just discovered that Necromancers of the Northwest created a Words mystery on their blog in the same days as me. How weird. Very differenti from mine, though.^^
I was thinking that we could add some fluff text to the next PDFs.^^ Personally, I'd love to write a story about the Beastbrewer or the Philologist...
Give me some details on the characters and ill whip you up a sketch. PM me if you are interested.
Huh. I just discovered that Necromancers of the Northwest created a Words mystery on their blog in the same days as me. How weird. Very differenti from mine, though.^^
I was thinking that we could add some fluff text to the next PDFs.^^ Personally, I'd love to write a story about the Beastbrewer or the Philologist...
well clearly great minds think alike ;)
@ Iorthol
1) thanks for putting me on the wiki.
2) Primal avatar is underpowered at level 1, compared to almost any class -gets 1 temp hp and darkvision 60 ft at level 1 and that's it, for at most(with a 22 CON) 10 rounds- unless I missed something.
3) my solution to 2 is to have primal manifestations at every odd level.
4) 3 is complicated by the fact this means rage powers at level 1, so i vote to get rid of the option of rage powers for the Primal Avatar, or make rage powers worth three evolution points.
5) the current Primal Avatar, is better than a pure Barbarian, at pure damage out put- possibly at AC as well- if it uses all 10 Primal Manifestations for rage powers.
6) rage powers are both better than, worse than, and incomparable to the evolution equivalent this needs to be addressed in some way.
7) fast healing evolution needs to restore Hp to the temporary Hp granted by the Avatar before/ if it heals the Primal avatar at all. Just a thought.
8) this was part of the original idea, i feel that using, what amounts to your, anger to reach into another plane and summon living armor would leave you more than fatigued.
9) I am happy with most everything else, the only bit I feel HAS to be there is the bit where rage powers are evolution points instead. All other abilities are secondary to that and essentially amount to useful fluff in my opinion.
@ Alfray I agree with you small amounts of finished work is better than large amounts of half baked stuff that is unrefined. I vote to rehash some/a lot of classes in the revision stage.
@ Alfray I agree with you small amounts of finished work is better than large amounts of half baked stuff that is unrefined. I vote to rehash some/a lot of classes in the revision stage.
Hey 55hi55, just thought I'd give you a heads up on how the MCP crew (Elghinn Lightbringer, cartmanbeck, Flak, Raider and myself) currently approach design, critique and polishing the MCA concepts brought to the thread, placed on the wiki an ultimately published in themed PDFs.
The five of us (MCP) then take the MCA through another round of editing, occasionally with the creator of the MCA concept if we feel there is a particularly thorny issue that needs addressing - while in an ideal world we would include the concept-creators the reality of time and allied constraints of communication prohibit this from always being the case.
The MCA then passes to the Ultimate Multiclass Archetypes list waiting to be placed by theme into a group that will appear in a PDF. When that themed PDF is being put together we then go over each MCA to be included in that PDF again, editing it for clarity and any typos missed, or tweaking things if any of the five of us have new concerns or old concerns that weren't satisfactorily resolved. Then the PDF is completed, proofed again and published. The concept-creator is acknowledged in the contents and we have usually found the results are appreciated by all and sundry.
When it came to your Spirit Warrior (which you may recall I made sure to link correctly and ever reminded folk it was there left in the doldrums) the same process obtained. The marked difference was, unfortunately perhaps, we ran off without the creator!!! So our "concept of your concept" will be a warped reflection of our initial desire - Iorthol hit us with some reminders of your intent as might be inferred from the flavor text, and we made some thematic approximations you like, and others you might not.
Apologies if my comments about the horse having bolted seemed abrupt , we are moving through quite a backlog, and rather than get bogged down in minutiae we are making the closest approximation we can on the thread and then setting it aside to refine later. Personally I don't see any "half-baked" or "unrefined" work here, and I apologise again if I am being defensive over your use of the term! :)
As for the "revision stage" I heartily and most definitely agree - rehashing, editing, cutting, polishing and tweaking all happen in the revision stage, and the revision stage is really "all the time".
We merely try to direct the curremt thread in a coherent fashion to avoid confusion and cross posting - you will remember this occurred to you at the very outset. ;)
There is still all the time in the world to refine the concept we have, or if you really wish, start from scratch if you think our current treatment is conceptually wide of the mark and you feel a whole cloth treatment is necessary.
#Primal Avatar:
* I'm not sure I get your #5 - is that not the versatility/power axis by expenditure risk all option-rich characters have?
* #6 I don't understand what you mean other than there is a spectrum of power like many abilities have
* #7 I agree wholeheartedly, and this is a great thematic tweak!
* #8 - I never really got the "anger" channeling nor the living armor (a la synthesist) but either way, yes, the exertion of drawing forth primal planar power should be fatiguing!!!
Give me some details on the characters and ill whip you up a sketch. PM me if you are interested.Huh. I just discovered that Necromancers of the Northwest created a Words mystery on their blog in the same days as me. How weird. Very differenti from mine, though.^^
I was thinking that we could add some fluff text to the next PDFs.^^ Personally, I'd love to write a story about the Beastbrewer or the Philologist...
Thank you, but I think that I'd like to give it a try myself.^^ After all, the Philologist is ME.^^
By the way, I was intrigued by the new spell Pagebound Epiphany in the Pathfinder Society Primer Guide. I feel that it should be a Words Mystery spell. Maybe in place of Codespeak, which has never been converted from 3.5? Or maybe in place of Comprehend Languages?Steal Book from KQ 14 (which has just been "adopted" in an official Paizo book) also intrigues me. Maybe I should replace BOTH those spells.^^
Basically, Bardess, if it's not in the PRD we can't use it :c That means the primer is off limits right now.
Sad but that's the way it goes if we want to make the PDF's and suchlike.
That's okay. After all, when the Philologist gets in a PDF the primer will be in the PRD.^^
Eeeeeh... not everything goes in there. So far only core, adv, and 'Ultimates' have made it. No Paths of Prestige or field guide or even the little primers for the adventure paths.
Maybe Raider is referring to the fact that we are currently producing the PDFs under Paizo's Community Use guidelines and not registered with nor abiding by the Compatibility license? Still seems a bit strange even then. Really I'm not sure. Raider?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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But that's exactly why we can use any OGL content... if we WERE operating under the Compatibility License, we would only be able to reference the Core line of books, because that's how the Compatibility license works. But we're producing them under the Community Use guidelines, which lets us reference their stuff in any way we want, even non-OGL content like the gods of Golarion and stuff like that.
#Shogun's Shadow
Let's move on from this one. We can hash this one out later.
#Bloodborn Magus
I think it would probably be good to increase the cost of certain bloodline powers. They only get them for 1 minute or one use up to the power's maximum daily uses. I think we can put his 2nd bloosline power at 2 points, and then increase his 3rd power to 3 points, and 4th power to 4 points.
I know in other MCAs that swpa in bloodline powers usually get them permanently, but in those cases, they are primay abilities in the MCA. Here we are relegating them to a far lesser important ability, so the costs should depict that. Other aspects of the sorcerer are permanent, such as the bonus spells adn bloodline feats.
In addition, a bloodborn magus can use his blood pool to fuel his bloodline powers. At 1st level, instead of enhancing his weapon, a bloodborn magus can spend 1 point from his arcane pool to either gain one use of his first bloodline power (up to its maximum uses per day), or gain its effects for 1 minute. As the bloodborn magus gains experience, he gains access to more of his bloodline powers.
At 5th level, a bloodborn magus can spend 2 points from his blood pool to gain his second bloodline power for 1 minute. At 11th level, he can spend 3 points from his blood pool to gain his third bloodline power for 1 minute. At 17th level, he can spend 4 points from his blood pool to gain his fourth bloodline power for 1 minute. If any of these subsequent bloodline powers have uses per day, he gains one use of the bloodline power up to its maximum uses per day instead. This ability replaces arcane pool and knowledge pool.
#Primal Avatar
2) Primal avatar is underpowered at level 1, compared to almost any class -gets 1 temp hp and darkvision 60 ft at level 1 and that's it, for at most(with a 22 CON) 10 rounds- unless I missed something.
You missed something. She also gains 2 evolution points.
"In addition, the primal avatar gains 2 evolution points. She can spend evolution points to gain any evolution an eidolon of her level has access to except for the Large, Huge, and Ability Increase evolutions..."
So, at 1st level he gains
1) darkvision 60 feet
2) temp hp = 1/2 level + Con mod (avergae 3-4)
3) any evoulutions totalling up to 2 points.
So...are we moving on to Cleanser of the Faith? If anyone has more discussion on the Primal Avatar (or any other recent MCA) we can still use #Primal Avatar (or #Specific MCA) to keep the discussions coherent while still trying to focus on the current #MCA.
We can work on Primal Avatar for now, since we actuallly have input form the creator.
Huzza my input matters!
# Primal Avatar
thanks for pointing out what I missed that does make a big difference.
To clear up what I meant earlier about rage powers needing to be reworked in this class...
10 primal manifestations can equal 10 rage powers, but thats a problem because...
A) Animal furry rage power (1d4 for a medium creature) does not equal bite evolution (1d6 for a medium creature) but both give a bite attack
B) Dragon totem Wings rage power does not equal Wings evolution, in the sense you can acquire wings faster than the rage power allows and flying no longer uses 2 rounds of rage
C) The Primal Avatar already has darkvision 60 while raging, the barbarian has to take a rage power OR TWO to do the same. (Night Vision rage power) This means that the Primal avatar can have the equivalent of 11 or 12 rage powers depending on race. Before feats such as extra rage power are taken into consideration.
D) In addition the rage powers Bestial Climber and Bestial Swimmer, give you a climb and swim speed respectively and each cost 2 evolution points (two primal manifestations) and you have to be level 6 to get either one. You can have both a climb and a swim speed at level 1 as a Primal Avatar.
That was just what i could find in 10 minutes on d20PFSRD.com I'm sure there are more that need to be tweaked or thrown out.
Just looking at rage powers and (if rage powers stack with evolutions) Bite has the potential to be a 1 hit wonder to give sneak attack a run for it's money.
Between trip evolution, hive toxicity totem rage power, increased damage evolution, reach evolution, push evolution, (I was a but to say swallow whole evolution but- bipedal.) And that's just what I remember of eidolon evolutions with out looking.
Also should the Primal Avatar be able to qualify for feats that require a natural attack? It's such an integral part of the class, and feats traditionally enhance the class benefits, but the Primal Avatar doesn't have a natural attack all the time that it would need to qualify
for natural attack feats.
# all other classes. I'm still reading to catch up in my half month long sabbatical from the internet so i have no input at this time.
# Primal Avatar
If a character wants to select a feat that they don't qualify for all of the time, that really seems like their choice to make. Most of the time, it's going to be a suboptimal choice and it seems counterintuitive to create rules to protect them from themselves.
So - what is the harm in letting the Primal Avatar select a feat that they can only use part-time? Is it unbalancing?
(I currently have a fifth-level character that does not have any access to two of her feats, so it's not an automatic death sentence.)
#Primal Avatar - I don't see a problem allowing the PA choose natural attack feats. As 55hi55 said, that's part of the intent AND the appeal, and as AinvarG says it might be suboptimal if not always useable.
@55hi55 - Sorry to be obtuse here - I did ask this before but I might be unclear, and am definitely confused. Is your list (ABCD) intended to show that there is a variation between Primal Manifestations/Evolutions/Rage Powers? Are you saying they need to revised and and or specified with regard to caveats and prerequisites? If so, then perhaps a repost of the PA might help.
Probably a good idea regardless. So here it is.
Some barbarians fuel their rage through arcane means. Instead of channeling their rage internally, they draw energy from the primal plane and form it into something only they can control. This spirit avatar feeds off its master’s rage like a parasite. In turn, the primal avatar gains great combat prowess, more than any mortal might normally obtain.
Primary Class: Barbarian.
Secondary Class: Summoner.
Alignment: Any chaotic.
Hit Dice: d12.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The spirit warrior may select three summoner skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal barbarian class skills. The primal caller gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The spirit warrior is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with natural weapons, and with light armor, but not with shields.
Primal Spirit: A primal avatar begins play with the ability to summon a powerful creature called a primal spirit to meld with his own being. The primal avatar wears the spirit like translucent, living armor. The primal spirit mimics all of the primal avatar’s movements, has the same alignment as the primal avatar that calls it, and can speak all of her languages. A primal avatar can summon her spirit for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can summon her primal spirit for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a primal avatar can summon her spirit per day. A primal avatar can summon her primal spirit as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The total number of rounds of summoning her primal spirit per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive. Unlike an eidolon, a primal spirit is not treated as a summoned creature, and is not subject to banishment, or similar effects that affect summoned creatures.
While a primal spirit is summoned, the primal avatar is treated as both an outsider and his original creature type. The spirit grants the primal avatar darkvision 60 feet, a number of temporary hit points equal to 1/2 her primal avatar level (minimum 1) + her Constitution modifier, and a bonus to Strength, Dexterity equal to a summoner’s eidolon of her level, but grants her half the listed bonus to natural armor. It also grants her the same maximum number of natural attacks as an eidolon of her level. If the primal avatar has more natural attacks than the maximum number, she must choose which natural attacks to use in any given round.
In addition, the primal avatar gains 2 evolution points. She can spend evolution points to gain any evolution an eidolon of her level has access to except for the Large, Huge, and Ability Increase evolutions. Whenever the primal avatar gains a level, she must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until she gains another level of primal avatar. She is also treated as having the bipedal base form for the purpose of what evolutions she qualifies for. The primal spirit does not grant the primal avatar a bonus to her base attack bonus, skill points, feats, or special abilities normally gained by to the eidolon (see Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics).
As the primal avatar gains experience, the primal spirit grants her a primal manifestation. At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a primal avatar gains either a rage power or 2 additional evolution points to spend on new evolutions. Evolutions or rage powers are only manifested when the primal spirit is summoned. A primal avatar is restricted from choosing any rage power that duplicates the effects of a similar evolution. A primal avatar cannot benefit from the transmogrify spell. All chosen evolutions remain fixed until she gains another level.
At 9th level, a primal avatar gains the Multiattack feat whenever her primal spirit is summoned.
Due to the exposure of intense energy’s generated by summoning her primal spirit, the primal avatar becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to two times the number of rounds the primal spirit was summoned. All benefits granted by the primal spirit end once it has been dismissed.
If the primal avatar should wear an item or come under the effects of a spell that increases her natural armor bonus while her primal spirit is summoned, only the highest bonus from either the armor, spell, or her spirit applies. This ability replaces rage and rage powers.
Guarded Ally (Su): At 4th level, whenever a primal avatar summons her primal spirit, any ally that is adjacent to her receives a +2 shield bonus to his Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on his saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or unconscious. This ability replaces trap sense.
Primal Jump (Sp): At 8th level, while her primal spirit is summoned, a primal avatar can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using her caster level. This ability only affects the primal avatar and his primal spirit. The primal avatar can use this ability once per day at 8th level, plus one additional time per day for every five levels beyond 8th. This ability replaces
Greater Guarded Ally (Su): At 12th level, whenever an ally is adjacent to the primal avatar when her primal spirit is summoned, the ally receives a +4 shield bonus to its Armor Class and a +4 circumstance bonus on its saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, or unconscious. This ability replaces greater rage.
Tireless Spirit (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a primal avatar no longer becomes fatigued when her primal spirit is dismissed. This ability replaces tireless rage.
Twin Avatar (Su): At 20th level, a primal avatar can manifest his primal spirit in corporeal form. As a standard action, the primal avatar can create a duplicate of his primal spirit, copying all of her evolutions, form, and abilities. Its Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores change to match the base scores of the primal avatar. The duplicate spirit does not have any gear that the primal avatar is carrying, including magical items. The primal spirit also gains none of the primal avatar’s class features. The primal avatar can maintain this duplicate spirit form by expending 2 rounds of summoning per round. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 2 round increments. The primal avatar can end this effect as a free action. This ability replaces mighty rage.
Table: Primal Avatar
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, primal spirit
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Guarded ally
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Damage reduction 1/—
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Primal jump
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Damage reduction 2/—
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Greater guarded ally
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Damage reduction 3/—
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Indomitable will
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Damage reduction 4/—
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Tireless spirit
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Damage reduction 5/—
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Twin avatar
Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics
Class Bouns Armor Str/Dex Max.
Level Hit Points Bonus Bonus Attacks Special
1st +0 +0 +0 3 Darkvision 60 ft.
2nd +1 +1 +2 3 Primal manifestation
3rd +1 +1 +2 3 —
4th +2 +1 +2 4 Primal manifestation
5th +2 +2 +2 4 —
6th +3 +2 +2 4 Primal manifestation
7th +3 +3 +2 4 —
8th +4 +3 +4 4 Primal manifestation
9th +4 +3 +4 5 Multiattack
10th +5 +4 +4 5 Primal manifestation
11th +5 +4 +4 5 —
12th +6 +5 +4 5 Primal manifestation
13th +6 +5 +4 5 —
14th +7 +5 +6 6 Primal manifestation
15th +7 +6 +6 6 —
16th +8 +6 +6 6 Primal manifestation
17th +8 +7 +6 6 —
18th +9 +7 +6 6 Primal manifestation
19th +9 +7 +6 7 —
20th +10 +8 +8 7 Primal manifestation
Regardless of whether a choice is suboptimal, the choices should be there, look at rogue talents, there are suboptimal choice there too, but they allow for various builds, as do the choices of evolutions and rage powers. I think one rage power is more or less equal to 2 evolution points.
I think tweaking a bunch of rage powers or evolutions is time consuming. If there are evolutions or rage powers we want to restrict, then that's fine. In fact, that may be what we need to do, since this is a Barbarian primay MCA, we should probably restrict any evolutions that duplicate (whether optimally or suboptimally) a rage power. So, he could select the Dragon Totem (wings) rage power, but cannot choose the fly evolution. Since that evolution is more "spellcaster"-esque than barbarian, that may be the way to go. Thoughts?
Something we could also do is allow the +2 natural armor from the biped form at 1st level. This would then give 2 evolution points, +2 nat AC, darkvision, and temp hp. She is prof with only light armor after all. Plus, this is all benefits during the spirit being summoned anyways.
I agree wholeheartedly with all of that - rewriting a comprehensive suite is a lot of work, ideally the MCA should work with existing abilities.
I especially like the +2 nat armor bonus at 1st level - I think it gives the PA some more defense out of the gate it otherwise lacks.
The following section of Primal Spirit should be rewritten like this.
# Primal Avatar I redid the class list myself to make sure it all worked out. I made sure all abilities mention what they replace (that was missing.) Corrected a few gender conflicts in the text- the Avatar is a she the spirit is a he in the text- and renamed Primal Jump to Primordial Jump (i figured we had need of SOMETHING not named "primal" in the power listings ;)) And I added the most recent changes we are currently discussing. I know you guys keep your copy but I will be updating this as changes are made here on this site as well. If nothing else it helps ME keep it all straight.
Primal Avatar Mark 2
#Primal Avatar
@55hi55
Nice.
* Your version still has a few old references to "Spirit Warrior" in the Bonus Skills and Weapon and Armor Proficiencies section.
* I completely empathise with wanting to mix it up a bit, but "Primordial" means something quite a bit different to "Primal"... Still, it's a small thing.
* I love your FUN FACT at the bottom - I'm playing a tweaked lizardfolk Dreadnought currently in a PbP - I love getting bites in with my falchion, and if I find a scimitar it'll be scimitar/claw/bite. I tried to sway the GM away from letting me bite dire rats but he seems to think it makes sense...
@Elghinn, you wanna take a look at 55hi55's version and make whatever changes you deem necessary to that appearing on the MCA wiki? I'm not keen on tracking back and forth to critique it at length d there don't appear to be that many differences to what we have.
Dimensional Leap could fill in for a name. Since it's Dimension Door an all.
#Bloodborn Magus
#Bloodborn Magus
I think it would probably be good to increase the cost of certain bloodline powers. They only get them for 1 minute or one use up to the power's maximum daily uses. I think we can put his 2nd bloosline power at 2 points, and then increase his 3rd power to 3 points, and 4th power to 4 points.I know in other MCAs that swpa in bloodline powers usually get them permanently, but in those cases, they are primay abilities in the MCA. Here we are relegating them to a far lesser important ability, so the costs should depict that. Other aspects of the sorcerer are permanent, such as the bonus spells adn bloodline feats.
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks! That should make it a tad more balanced.
Made the changes on the Wiki.
Hey I made it to the wiki, yay! Also I necro'd a couple threads that had the MCA spirit.
Zen Mystery
Monk bloodline
obviously these have to wait, but getting awareness up now could help, especially since they got their own threads.
arg (work sucks)which MCA are we on?
Taking another look at Primal Avatar, now that 55hi55 is back on the thread after being unable to join us for a few weeks.