This is a peculiar adventure, with a lot of strange concepts. I thought it might be useful to set up a thread specifically designed to help DM's past the sticky points. If you have a problem with what's in the module, or you have a great solution to a difficult point, bring it here.
For example, we have a Rogue in the party, and he's having a hard time facing off with incorporeal creatures since nobody has a magic weapon.
So, I deleted all the magic arrows from the Temple's stash and put in a +1 Ghost Touch dagger. The PC can't keep the dagger since it's the Temple's, and being a dagger it only does a d4 so most won't want to keep it anyway, but I figured this would make for a more fun game if everyone could participate.
Thought about that, but to be honest that thread has been deceased for some time now. I didn't think anyone was checking it. Most of the posts date back over a year ago.
Hmmm. See, I wanted to enable the Rogue to contribute, so him having a way to do damage, even if it was only 1d4+3, is worth it(half damage for that is just plain too tiny to care about honestly). Everybody else has a way to damage haunts and incorporeals, so I figured this would even things out somewhat. If I do add an additional +1 enchanted dagger, I will also make it cold iron, just to spice it up a bit.
The hidden stash; I just deleted all the arrows and sun rods (most of my PC's have darkvision anyway) and replaced them with the +1 ghost touch dagger. In the town, I changed the +1 light steel shield to a +1 heavy mithral shield (great for the cleric or Rogue), and the +1 rapier to a +1 silver lucerne hammer because the Paladin likes 2 handed weapons(this is the biggest blunt object in the UE). The rogue in the group is a Knife Master, so he just wants daggers.
What creatures can't be sneak attacked, aside from oozes and swarms? It used to be that no undead (and a few aberrations) could be sneak attacked/critted.
Well, if there's a body of the haunt then one would think ghost touch would be able to hit it.
I thought about that concept you mentioned, and to be honest I think the rule of fun supersedes it. That is, if one of my players isn't having fun because of the adventure design, I should take steps to ensure they can participate. I'm not advocating catering to their tastes, but to be brutally honest Harrowstone needs much editing! Because of that, I wanted to make up for it somehow since I was the one who talked them into playing it.
As for those two items available for purchase, that's not really much of a change. They still have to pay for them; it wasn't going to be free. Getting the money for that lucerne hammer is going to be nasty, that's for sure.
Haunts are... The concept really needs work and standardization. In many of the listed ones, there's nothing more than hp noted, so no AC, no attack rolls etc. Heck, some of the beasties like the flaming skulls don't have an attack roll listed! I guessed either 2 or 3.
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Any posts in the dedicated Harrowstone thread will immediately be flagged as new posts - anyone who's ever checked the thread and still checks the CC board will see there're posts in the main GM thread.
As I mentioned at the end of your first thread, there's only four or so things in Harrowstone that are actually incorporeal.
A ghost touch weapon will not allow the NPC rogue to attack the haunts - there's nothing for him to actually stab except in special circumstances. However, giving him a ghost touch dagger gives him quite a lot towards fighting the Lopper and the Splatterman.
Also, there are standard rules for haunts. They can be found at: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/haunts.html
The rogue should be using holy water or the haunt siphons. Harrowstone has extra holy water inside of it, along with other stashes of consumable goodies.
I generally ran the module as is, other than the encounters I ramped up to make harder. Like I rewrote Gibbs as a 6th level fighter and war buddy of Lorrimar, added more skeletons to the piper encounter, gave the Lopper and Splatter Man max HP, had the Lopper wait until someone was climbing a rope into his pit to attack, had the Splatter Man attack at the same time his associated haunt was going, etc. But I had five 20 pt PCs, and our group does the "add Con to starting HP at level 1" houserule so that we don't to worry about a PC dying from something looking at them funny.
Lessee here... I did make the Lopper's axe a great axe, and have it become an actual +1 weapon after the destruction of the Lopper. I also made the warden's sword a rapier instead of a longsword. Otherwise I didn't really do a thing to the treasure.
If you run a search for treasure or wealth you should find the thread that lists all of the treasure in the first two or three books.
Because of incorporeality, is there a percentage of the damage taken off when a ghost etc gets hit with holy water? Basically, what does it take to damage a ghost with holy water?
Yes, on the first level we found the few vials of holy water and consumables (mostly medical in nature) already. Good thing we had a Rogue along, because everyone else boloed their Perception rolls.
That's a lot of hp to add to a starting PC! I don't think I would do that, at the most I would amp up their Con scores if I was worried they'd die off too easily.
I think at most I am going to modify the treasure received upon Splatter Man's death to something more suitable for the party. Nobody uses longswords in my group. That altered axe was quite generous of you. I am honestly worried I'd overcompensate for the crappy treasure list, and include too much loot.
The main malfunction of Harrowstone's baddies are these: several incorporeal enemies who are unavoidable, several constructs with very high Hardness/DR, and difficult to damage (and regenerating) Haunts compose the majority of the encounters. Worse, the only way to figure out how to wipe out a Haunt permanently is to use the Ouija board, but it can only be used once a day (and it isn't reliable)! Making the situation worse is that Harrowstone seems to want the PC's to fully explore, but they don't have the time because of the Vesorianna name mechanic. As it is, by the end of the game day, the characters are running on fumes for spells etc.
Because of these elements, I was rather glad the rest of Carrion Crown wasn't written by the same fella. Much of Harrowstone is alternatingly puzzling or frustrating my players. They can deal with puzzles and difficult combat, but when there's no recourse but to slog through a low level encounter that negates the party's offense almost entirely, they get ticked.
Couldn't find the thread you mention.
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Couldn't find the thread you mention.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because of incorporeality, is there a percentage of the damage taken off when a ghost etc gets hit with holy water? Basically, what does it take to damage a ghost with holy water?
Worse, the only way to figure out how to wipe out a Haunt permanently is to use the Ouija board, but it can only be used once a day (and it isn't reliable)!
As many others have already told you, the spirit planchette is NOT the only way to figure out a haunt. As per the rules:
Investigating Haunts
Whether in the employ of the frightened owners of a haunted estate or simply seeking to exorcise unquiet spirits, PCs may attempt communication with haunts to discover the actions necessary to bring final rest.
The GM may elect to treat all neutralized haunts (those reduced to 0 hp) as CR 1 rapping spirits while they reset. Using this option, haunts retain enough ectoplasmic fortitude to linger in the area, where they attempt to convey their needs to the living. While these knockings are still potentially frightening, communication with these feeble spirits can be established by working out a series of codes (such as one rap for “yes” and two for “no”) or by calling out words, numbers, and letters for selection by the spirits.
Such messages can be formed at the rate of 1d10 words for each minute a character makes a successful Linguistics check, with a DC equal to 15 + the original haunt’s CR. Such communications are typically unreliable and cryptic, never conveying knowledge beyond what the spirit knew in life.
While the spectre always behaves according to the original haunt’s alignment, only the most malevolent spirits would deny themselves a chance at final rest. Some mediums carry flat, lettered boards known as “talking boards,” or planchettes—small, wheeled boards with chalk or charcoal extending below—to better facilitate communication with spirits.
Such tools increase the efficiency of messages received to 3d6 words per minute of communication, and grant the user a +4 bonus on Linguistics checks to decipher the cryptic messages of haunts.
You can also enlist simple knowledge checks to see if the PCs have ever heard of something like this haunt in their religious studies (knowledge: religion), historical research (knowledge: history), or folklore passed down in their village or by their families (knowledge: local).
Additional reading material:
Brandon Hodge's explanation of how haunts work
As it is, by the end of the game day, the characters are running on fumes for spells etc.
That was the point of the module; your party is SUPPOSED to be frightened and reduced to very little resources, because its meant to be a horror adventure! PCs and their players have basically seen it all, so throwing ghosts and goblins at them isn't going to scare them; stripping them of their resources and forcing them to work together strategically in a haunted prison is what makes it scary!
Don't have enough time to fully explore the prison? Your players are having an abnormally bad time of it if they really need over two weeks to check out the entire place.
For comparison, my PCs cleared the entire prison in 3 runs. They did the entire second floor (they went in through the executioner's balcony) and most of the 1st floor on the first run, they finished the first floor, killed the Lopper, and beat the Splatter Man on the second run, and finished up the bottom level on the third run. And that was with my ramping up encounters and usually adding something from the random encounter table to most fights.
My PCs also had to deal with the town hall event after they got back from the first expedition - i.e., the Splatter Man and the Lopper were really unhappy that the Piper had been taken out.
The animated objects in Harrowstone have the haunted flaw, which does this to them:
Haunted (Ex, +1 CP): The object is haunted by a malevolent spirit. It takes damage from positive energy as if it were an undead creature and can be detect by detect undead.
I assumed that the positive energy damage ignored hardness.
Also, here is Ice Titan's thread on treasure for the first three books.
****SPOILERS!!*******
I disagree about the poltergeist sloanzilla. my party immediately went north in the prison, found the poltergeist everyone but the alchemist failed their saves and ran leaving the alchemist alone wiyh the poltergeist, however she had 3 of the haunt siphons and lived (using two of them) they also nailed the furnace on their first run (not til the ranger looked in tho and caught a scorching ray to the face (dropped down to -10 hit points had a con of 15). overall they loved that the resources were stretched and death waited around every corner:)
great job to Micheal Kortes for the adventure.
also sorry bout no SPOILER hide thing don't know how to do those
****SPOILERS!!*******
I disagree about the poltergeist sloanzilla. my party immediately went north in the prison, found the poltergeist everyone but the alchemist failed their saves and ran leaving the alchemist alone wiyh the poltergeist, however she had 3 of the haunt siphons and lived (using two of them) they also nailed the furnace on their first run (not til the ranger looked in tho and caught a scorching ray to the face (dropped down to -10 hit points had a con of 15). overall they loved that the resources were stretched and death waited around every corner:)
great job to Micheal Kortes for the adventure.
also sorry bout no SPOILER hide thing don't know how to do those
There's a thing below your post box that'll show you how to format your text. Spoilers go like this:
Hope that helps!
Eh, the poltergeist and the furnace are the big enemies on the first floor. I'd leave the poltergeist there - the star of the top floor is the Piper, whose haunt covers nearly half the floor once it's active.
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I agree yet again. I think some people are trying to have a constructive conversation and some people are only interested proclaiming their opinion. I was really trying to be helpful. I've pointed out (as have others) that there are many, many ways to be useful in Harrowstone against incorporeals and haunts (which are not every encounter anyway) that everyone can do. No matter how many times the rules excerpts are posted, they will not be acknowledged as having any relevance to the perceived problems.
So in keeping with the original spirit of the thread, here's my solution to all difficult points found in book one: trust your players to be cunning, brave, and resourceful, and to know when it's time to back off. Every problem has a solution, and if you have newer players who don't know about how to use holy water against incorporeals, or that you need positive energy to disrupt haunts, and so forth, then let them know how the game expects you to deal with them. It's totally okay for the book to use tricky mechanics like haunts as long as the players understand how you can deal with them, even if their characters don't. If you do it OOC, that's good. If you have Father Grim explain it to them IC, that's also good. If you send them in, they have a haunt happen, they get spooked and retreat and then research it, that's even better for a horror game.
As long as your players have the tools to deal with a situation, even if they're not perfect, the adventure will go great as long as they're willing to think. And if they don't get creative, then maybe they're better suited to a straightforward campaign about slaying dragons and rescuing princesses. Horror isn't for everyone. Or maybe just the kind of horror that's more Whedon than Lovecraft.
Couldn't find the thread you mention.Its a sticky right there at the top of the forum.
that's 8 pages of material to hunt through. A bit much.
Based on what I read in the Harrowstone book, simply rolling Religion isn't going to cut the mustard. It basically wants you to use the bronze ouija board.
I explained how haunts work and the obstacles of incorporeal monsters. that worked out very well because they could tackle the obstacles head on without too much guess work, i loved it when they figured out the furnace all by themselves.
I explained how haunts work and the obstacles of incorporeal monsters. that worked out very well because they could tackle the obstacles head on without too much guess work, i loved it when they figured out the furnace all by themselves.
In doing so, aren't you giving them metagame information?
I explained how haunts work and the obstacles of incorporeal monsters. that worked out very well because they could tackle the obstacles head on without too much guess work, i loved it when they figured out the furnace all by themselves.In doing so, aren't you giving them metagame information?
So?, everyone had fun, no one had experience with them (only one had any experience with PFRPG and hadn't run into haunts before, the rest had been playing 2nd edition for 20+ years) also there was no Clerics, all i did was mention they were harmed by the haunt siphons or holy water sprinkling, they had to figure out how to put them to rest. no harm done. besides they had an alchemist from ustalav one would imagine she had experience with ghosts anyhow to hunt them, i think she actually met the professor whilst in religious studies or some such trait.
metagame knowledge is not always a bad thing :) knowing when to use it is the key, a little goes a long way i always say:)
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Couldn't find the thread you mention.Its a sticky right there at the top of the forum.that's 8 pages of material to hunt through. A bit much.
Based on what I read in the Harrowstone book, simply rolling Religion isn't going to cut the mustard. It basically wants you to use the bronze ouija board.
8 pages is a bit much? How is that any different from reading the GameMastery Guide, Core Rulebook, or the AP itself? You ask for help, but you'll go just short of reading?
I'm seriously confused by what you want.
I think you are trying to provoke an argument, and I am not going to play. Basically, you are on the verge of trolling.I agree yet again. I think some people are trying to have a constructive conversation and some people are only interested proclaiming their opinion. I've pointed out (as have others) that there are many, many ways to be useful in Harrowstone against incorporeals and haunts (which are not every encounter anyway) that everyone can do. No matter how many times the rules excerpts are posted, they will not be acknowledged as having any relevance to the perceived problems.
And if they don't get creative, then maybe they're better suited to a straightforward campaign about slaying dragons and rescuing princesses. Horror isn't for everyone. Or maybe just the kind of horror that's more Whedon than Lovecraft.
No one is trying to start a fight with you. All I'm seeing is people telling you that you're misunderstanding the rules that you may or may not have read, and you're calling people names. By resorting to name calling, you're appearing defensive, therefore rendering your argument invalid.
Removed accusation of trolling. If you believe that a post is inappropriate, flag it and move on. Do not respond to it.
Removed more sniping at other posters. The subject of this thread is Harrowstone. Keep it on topic, or I will lock it.
One problem I see people sometimes have in Harrowstone is that the flaming skull doesn't have a listed to-hit bonus. This is easily solved with a little reverse engineering. Undead get 3/4ths BAB, so 1 hit die of undead gives 0 BAB. Then 9 strength gives a -1 mod. Being tiny gives a +2 size bonus. So flaming skulls should be: +1 slam, 1d2-1 +fire damage.
That should clear up some amount of confusion.
Is there errata published or whatever for Harrowstone or the rest of Carrion Crown?
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Is there errata published or whatever for Harrowstone or the rest of Carrion Crown?
Errata and additional information for the adventure paths are often provided by the authors in the GM stickies at the top of the forum. I know that Brandon Hodge and Neil Spicer have been incredibly helpful in their chapter's threads, offering some interesting director's cuts and other assorted tidbits that ended up on the cutting room floor.
Read through the sticky threads and you'll discover some real treasures :)
It's gonna take a loooooong time to casually read through Harrowstone's thread, it's huge.
Anyway, the group managed to take out the Piper, but only after running for it once. Came back after healing up and distributing the various consumables, then opened one of those Haunt Siphons and killed the Piper outright (18 damage on 3d6!). I was so pleased with them that I allowed them to go into hock to buy a mithral breastplate (Paladin is being charged interest) and the masterwork full plate from the general store, and leveled them despite their being just barely shy of being able to do so as per the rules.
Now, I'm assuming that all used goods are half off when sold to the NPC's, right? I'm trying to stick to WbL.
The Cleric now has a 22 AC, which may make her very hard to hit during the game, at least by cheesy mooks. She's got a huge armor check penalty though, -7. Paladin is only up to 19, which isn't TOO bad to hit. Rogue hit 20, while the Wizard is easily the worst.