It's the fact that EVERY half-orc he sees has that. So now it's a racial thing to be lucky and really believe in luck. They're more halfling than the halflings!
Fate's Favored is a scaling bonus on a trait, which warps balance.Fate's favored is not a scaling bonus. It stays the same from level 1 to level 20.
When I look at some of the other things that get nerfed, they are things that truly warp the game. A +1 to all saves constantly? It's not game breaking.
Not true.
Indomitable Will is a static +1 to Will.
Fate's Favoured gives +1 to more and more things as you find luck bonus granting items.
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The bonus doesn't scale, but the amount of things that can get the bonus does. The effects of the trait scale, but the bonus doesn't.
Dodge and Untyped bonuses are stackable! We must ban them as well!
Circumstance bonuses stack too. Toss them on the fire too!
EDIT: And racial too! "With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects)." ]PRD, Magic section, Special Spell Effects]
Who said anything about stackable.
The issue is relative value.
You Secret Wizard.
Fate's Favored is a scaling bonus on a trait, which warps balance.
The only way you can think of Fate's Favored as scaling is if you are taking into account it stacks.
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I have I think 4 Warpriests, and not one of them has Fate's Favored. I knew about it, and opted for other things. I favor Divine Classes and Birthmark, Exalted of the Society, Armor Expert, Havok of the Society, Affable, Chosen of Iomedae + Divine Warrior, Blessed Touch, and Transmuter of Korada tend to win out for the theme I went for.
You Secret Wizard.
Fate's Favored is a scaling bonus on a trait, which warps balance.The only way you can think of Fate's Favored as scaling is if you are taking into account it stacks.
Not sure what kind of language wizardry you are trying to pull here but the fact that the compounded effects of the trait stack up to quite a lot (thus is a grammatical phrase with no in-game meaning) has no relation to whether it's a stackable bonus (which is an in-game term which is balanced by power and availability).
@DM Beckett: It's also not about being able to make a Warpriest without this trait, it's about the fact that you can't even measure the power of this trait against all the rest you mentioned because it's really no contest
Yeah, that's not stacking, nor is it overpowered. It's a highly specific build designed to optimize one specific aspect of your character. That's not broken, that's how the system is supposed to work.
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I don't know, in play, I find the Warpriest very underwhelming except at a few key levels, and Fate's Favored wouldn't really help too much one way or the other. I'm in a game right now online where my 7th Level Warpriest is still stuck with 1 attack per round, and when 4/5 attack rolls are a Nat 5 or lower, it doesn't matter what buffs are up. But I also like to play "Battle Clerics", too, so it wasn't just about the Warpriest as much as the more generic divine warrior type.
It's at best, another +1 to Att/Damage which I get a lot of already. But, with, for example Chosen of Iomedae and Divine Warrior, I get a free Masterwork Longsword at level 1, and can at all times have a free +1 damage (Light on sword) in addiction to well, always having a light source. Transmuter of Korada adds an extra +1 to Caster Levels for Transmutation spells, (namely Bull's Str and Bear's Endurance +1 Minute), and 1/Day a free Extend on Bull's Strength. That's fantastic for a battle Cleric/Oracle and would be great for a Warpriest too at higher levels (due to slow casting).
To both above posters:
Static luck bonuses like Sacred Tattoo make it overpowered.
If it only applied to Divine Favour, it would be fine.
If it only applied to a luckstone, then it would be badly designed as you can only benefit from it at higher levels and it doesn't make much sense as a trait.
To me it should only work with temporary bonuses, and rather than increase the bonus, it should extend the duration.
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To me it should only work with temporary bonuses, and rather than increase the bonus, it should extend the duration.
I like this.
Fate's Favored
The fates watch over you.
Benefit: Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, the duration of that bonus increases by 1 round.
It makes it worth roughly half a feat when compared to Lingering Performance. Still useful to take, but no longer overwhelmingly the best choice.
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It sounds like a good investment to me? Not an overpowered one. I just don't see it.
I'd also point out that, for the most part, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude are pretty weak and lackluster Feats, generally only taken if they are a Prereq for something else or given for free as Bonus Feats. Comparing a Trait or alternate Racial Trait to a set of Feats that themselves probably shouldn't count as Feats, and certainly not the bar that a Feat should set isn't really saying anything.
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It sounds like a good investment to me? Not an overpowered one. I just don't see it.
I'd also point out that, for the most part, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude are pretty weak and lackluster Feats, generally only taken if they are a Prereq for something else or given for free as Bonus Feats. Comparing a Trait or alternate Racial Trait to a set of Feats that themselves probably shouldn't count as Feats, and certainly not the bar that a Feat should set isn't really saying anything.
I find Iron Will almost mandatory to shore up a weak will save unless you can replace with something better like Steadfast Personality, or a racial bonus.
It's a boring feat, but it is by no means weak.
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So, with that in mind, would you say that the Birthmark Trait is extremely OP? I mean a +2 Trait Bonus vs Compulsions and Charms are really about the only Will Saves you need to worry about. And it also gives you other stuff.
It sounds like a good investment to me? Not an overpowered one. I just don't see it.
I'd also point out that, for the most part, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude are pretty weak and lackluster Feats, generally only taken if they are a Prereq for something else or given for free as Bonus Feats. Comparing a Trait or alternate Racial Trait to a set of Feats that themselves probably shouldn't count as Feats, and certainly not the bar that a Feat should set isn't really saying anything.
I find Iron Will almost mandatory to shore up a weak will save unless you can replace with something better like Steadfast Personality, or a racial bonus.
It's a boring feat, but it is by no means weak.
I see people multiclass into a class with a good save more often than I see Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, or Great Fortitude.
DM Beckett: Sound of Mind = +2 trait bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Covers most will saves.
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It sounds like a good investment to me? Not an overpowered one. I just don't see it.
I'd also point out that, for the most part, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude are pretty weak and lackluster Feats, generally only taken if they are a Prereq for something else or given for free as Bonus Feats. Comparing a Trait or alternate Racial Trait to a set of Feats that themselves probably shouldn't count as Feats, and certainly not the bar that a Feat should set isn't really saying anything.
I find Iron Will almost mandatory to shore up a weak will save unless you can replace with something better like Steadfast Personality, or a racial bonus.
It's a boring feat, but it is by no means weak.
I see people multiclass into a class with a good save more often than I see Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, or Great Fortitude.
DM Beckett: Sound of Mind = +2 trait bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Covers most will saves.
If you were going to multiclass anyway, sure. But it's not always the best option.
If you were going to multiclass anyway, sure. But it's not always the best option.It sounds like a good investment to me? Not an overpowered one. I just don't see it.
I'd also point out that, for the most part, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude are pretty weak and lackluster Feats, generally only taken if they are a Prereq for something else or given for free as Bonus Feats. Comparing a Trait or alternate Racial Trait to a set of Feats that themselves probably shouldn't count as Feats, and certainly not the bar that a Feat should set isn't really saying anything.
I find Iron Will almost mandatory to shore up a weak will save unless you can replace with something better like Steadfast Personality, or a racial bonus.
It's a boring feat, but it is by no means weak.
I see people multiclass into a class with a good save more often than I see Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, or Great Fortitude.
DM Beckett: Sound of Mind = +2 trait bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Covers most will saves.
No, you missed the point. I've seen people take the multiclass JUST to up the saves instead of take the feat. That's just how low on the feat totem pole those feats are. A less than optimal multiclass is preferable.
When I see the feats taken, it's as a prerequisite or as a bonus feat with limited options. I'll agree with DM Beckett ,"weak and lackluster" is the general opinion around here.
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Multiclassing is generally a really good option, but mostly only if you plan on it early. It also really favors martial classes, the ones most likely to loose little for multiclassing anyway, as HP, Saves, and BaB all stack while CL and spells do not.
A Warrior-type can multiclass with Paladin, Cleric/Oracle, or even Bard to get both better Saves, but also access to the ability to use Wands and Scrolls as needed. Another good option is the Bloodrager, who also gets access to Wands for their entire Spell List.
I mean a 1 level dip in Bloodrager gets you fast movement, a +2 Fort, an average of +1 HP, some more skills and +2 Skill Points, (or +1 without Favored Class), Blood Rage, and the ability to utilize cheap Wands of Enlarge Person, Shield, Endure Elements, and Expeditious Retreat (amongst other things) on yourself without a check.
That's a pretty amazing multiclass dip for a general Fighter. It pretty significantly boosts your "martial" ability with very little reduction of anything, at best postponing a few things by 1 level.
A dip into Cleric might get you a free Weapon Prof, better saves, some extra skills, potentially a few very nifty 3/Day Domain things, and again, access to some really good Wand options and a much more reliable means of self healing and buffing, even if you just have a Wis of 11 and Cha of 7. Sure, you loose out on a +1 BaB, but that's more important at level 1 than 2, and if you dip a few more levels, even that doesn't continue.
I'm just curious, but how many of us balance feats around the likes of Prone Shooter or Dodge, despite the fact that most of Paizo's feats are pretty weak?
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Dodge isn't too bad, and actually an improvement over the original. (It use to b a +1 against one opponent). It's also a worthwhile Feat to take as a Prereq for other things, too. (vs, for example, Combat Expertise or Iron Will). That's about where a generic Feat should probably be, I think. A tad on the weak side, but still fairly worthwhile.
I'm just curious, but how many of us balance feats around the likes of Prone Shooter or Dodge, despite the fact that most of Paizo's feats are pretty weak?
Who ever said that?
What I'm saying is that traits have a nice cozy power level that is equal to 1/2 of a feat.
Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage, Fate's Favored, all of those are at least a feat. I'd spend a feat to get those effects no doubt.
People mention Sound of Mind. It's a pretty damn sweet trait, but still worth less than Iron Will because you are still vulnerable to Channel/Inflict/Cure/Heal/Harm/Possession/Curses/should I go on? I think I made my point.
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Not really. Well, in my experience, at least. Most of those things will not come up often, if at all. The main exception is Channel Energy, but that's really only a significant threat at levels 1-3. Afterwards, particularly for warrior types, it really doesn't matter too much, and full or half damage is pretty minor.
Harm, is maybe the one exception, but still pretty uncommon. A cleric is probably just going to be casting something better at that point. Harm has been consistently nerfed since 2nd Ed.
Another good one though would be the appropriately aligned versions of Holy Word.
Ahhhh Harm..... sweet sweet memories
I once took down a 350 hp dragon to 2hp with that beauty.... :((
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I barely take feats, the ones I do take are the ones that are cool and give new abilities or are literally combat style feats. Most feats Paizo makes are not worth the feat slot in my opinion so I have made 90% of characters since VMC out VMC characters. The only one I didn't was one that used a lot of teamwork feats, which care worth it if you are playing a 2 person campaign.
That doesn't undermine the fact that it's worse than Iron Will.
Worse enough to be worth 50% of Iron Will? Probably not, but it is.
Fortune's Favored is as good or better than Iron Will, considering the whole lot of things it affects.
Iron Will is a terrible feat tax, so why not allow better options for more specific builds? Sure a halfling investing in adaptable luck would get a ton of mileage out of it, more so with access to divine favor, but feats giving a flat bonus should have never, ever existed in the game at any point.
You are using the term "feat tax" wrong.
If you want Imp. Disarm, Combat Expertise is a feat tax because it bars you from getting to do what you want by forcing you to spend a feat on something you don't really care for.
If you have meh Will saves and you want to boost them, Iron Will is not a feat tax. It's exactly what you want.
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You are using the term "feat tax" wrong.
If you want Imp. Disarm, Combat Expertise is a feat tax because it bars you from getting to do what you want by forcing you to spend a feat on something you don't really care for.
Seems to be a matter of opinion. :P
I'd say it's not (technically only) a Feat Tax, but for different reasons than what I think you mean.
It's actually more like a Feat/Prestige Class/other cool option Tax, as it's more commonly a prereq for those than strictly other worthwhile Feats. As far as Feats, really only Improved Iron Will and Heroic Will come to mind, minus niche cases.
But Divine Scion, Inheritor's Crusader, Living Monolith, Master Spy, and Steel Falcon all need it. Ouch. That sucks as most of them are designed for Feat Starved classes.
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In this thread:
- Moving goalposts
- Strawmen
- Equivocations
Epistemologists would have a seizure.
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I think you may be trying to hide behind terms rather than accepting that some disagree with you. :P
It doesn't look like anyone is changing any criteria, just looking at things from different ways and coming to different conclusions.
It doesn't look like anyone is using ambiguous terms here? However, if someone where, they also at the same time did establish the defining characteristics that where being used to differentiate.
It also doesn't look like anyone is misrepresenting anyone's arguments, just not agreeing with them or their conclusions.
There are no fallacies being committed against you, just disagreements. And that's fine. People play differently and have different experiences, which is also why I did make a point to say "in my experience" or "in my opinion".
1. Magical Lineage should be errata'd out of existence for sure.
2. Clever Wordplay is stronger than average, but not by much. To most characters, it would be a +3 swing or so in a skill, without making it a class skill. It's neat, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
3. Iron Will is NOT a bad feat. I'm GLAD to have it on my bad Will save characters. It's not very exciting, for sure, but it's not bad. And it scales with level to an extent, as your saves are continuously growing and this lets you jump a bit ahead on the curve.
4. Likewise, Great Fortitude is very good for my bad Fort save characters.
5. However, some builds don't need either, even if they have bad saves for each. Investigators don't mind about low Fortitude since they are easily protected against poisons and can use extracts to cure against diseases, curses and what not. UnMonks have naturally good Will saves and stack Still Mind on top of it. Etc.
6. It's a GOOD feat, but not MANDATORY. You can always compensate for it with a team that can protect you from each type of affliction. The Wizard won't need Great Fortitude that much if someone is there to cast Death Ward on him. The Rogue won't be desperate for Iron Will if there's always Paladin nearby.
7. I never said Fortune's Favored was broken. I said it was overpowered. So overpowered it WILL be errata'd out of existence.
8. Iron Will, whether you like it or not, is not going anywhere and people will still favor it because it's a SOLID feat. If you want more exciting stuff, there's a ton of options for you. But in terms of POWER, it's good.
I think you may be trying to hide behind terms rather than accepting that some disagree with you. :P
Nope, those are not just terms, they are argumental fallacies that have been committed in this thread and derail the conversation in nonconstructive ways.
I accept that some people will disagree with me.
That doesn't mean they are right.
It doesn't look like anyone is using ambiguous terms here? However, if someone where, they also at the same time did establish the defining characteristics that where being used to differentiate. This is generally, politely solved by a call to agree upon terms.
The propositions:
- Traits are minor bonuses that coincide with character background.
- In order to preserve their use as such, having traits with powerful, build-defining effects would be a detriment to the latter proposition.
- Fate's Favored, in this instance, provides a large enough bonus to be build-defining. A Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc divine caster would get a non-trivial boost in defense and power out of it, for example, rather than a minor boost to represent it's background.
- Paizo has been cracking down on overpowered feats and archetypes, as well as in options that eschew balance or the power curve.
- Fate's Favored eschews balance and the power curve enough to be cracked down upon.
- It will be cracked down upon.
I think it's more constructive to post ideas on what it should do (extend temporary luck bonuses by 1d4 rounds?) rather than whether or not it should errata'd out.
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4 of my 30 PFS characters have Fate's Favored:
Half-orc Inquisitor
Human Warpriest
Human Paladin
Tengu Rogue
3 of them wear a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (and the 4th will when he's higher level). The 3 divine casters all utilize Divine Favor. The Half-orc obviously has a Sacred Tattoo. That's all pretty understandable. +1 to attack, damage, AC and saves is incredibly powerful for a trait.
But when looking for a feat for my 15th level Rogue, that was when I realized Fate's Favored was probably too good. I chose Additional Traits just to grab Fate's Favored, and spent 20k on a Luckstone to combine with it. For a skill monkey, and a class with only one good saving throw, spending 20k and a feat was just too good of an opportunity to pass up.
At 15th level there should be better choices than half a feat. It effectively does the work of 5 traits (conservatively). Imagine:
A couple traits give +1 to AC (under certain conditions)
Some traits give you +1 to attack (under certain conditions)
Some traits give you +1 to damage (under certain conditions)
Several traits give you +1 to a single save. Some give you more
And most skill traits only grant +1 to maybe a couple skills
Yet, when combined with the magic items and/or spells that most characters eventually gravitate towards, Fate's Favored outdoes all five of those types of traits on its own.
I've decided to ban it from an AP I'm starting next month. I won't advocate for errata, because I'm clearly enjoying its effects, but claiming it's not out of balance is disingenuous. If it gets errata'd I wouldn't be surprised.