The question is, why? I've known Wizards and some guys who play frail races, who have accidentally rolled a 15 strength. 15 is a big deal to an average person, yeah, but for adventurers, it's kind of an "ok" stat(unless you're running one of those really hardcore old school games). And this would be fine if gorillas weren't completely insane in terms of what they could do.
Do you know what a gorilla can do? If one really, really wanted to, do you know how fast it could snap your femur like a twig? Do you know how immediately you'd be dead if for some reason, it just really wanted to kill you? Hell, a chimpanzee can completely tear a human apart in no time at all, and they're much less strong than gorillas. Did you see that news report of those chimps that tore that guy and his wife apart? It was horrific. And now you're telling me that our Wizard can arm-wrestle with a gorilla? What?
So, why do apes have 15 strength? What's going on, guys?
Apes are incredibly unrealistic in most RPGs...they embarrass humans with their strength and agility in real life...and that's not terribly heroic. The truth is that the strongest man on the planet would have his arm yanked out of socket in a wrestling match with any given chimpanzee.
This. If we wanted to go full realism, any given ape would one-shot a human with no difficulty, and that's not very system friendly. Most of the mundane animals in the Bestiary can kill a real human (AKA a commoner) in one hit or two.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Picking a fight with apes isn't very heroic, either.
Besides, don't most Pathfinder adventurers eventually become, like, superheroes?
With a 15 Strength and being large, gorillas as stated are 4x the strength of the average human. (Average human heavy load 100 lbs, average gorilla heavy load 400 pounds.)
3.5 apes had a strength of 21, making them 9x the strength of an average human (which fits with what I can find about gorilla strength online.) Average 3.5 ape heavy load 920 pounds.
See, 21 is a reasonable level of strength. A min-maxing 1st level character can get 20 strength, so I'd be cool with that.
Yes, that is one unfortunate fact.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want a realistic fight against an ape, play rolemaster.
Our entire party of 4th level characters ran like sissies when confronted with 1 bear. Why? Because being graphically and violently killed in one attack isn't fun.
I believe that one of the developers said that it was because the Core Rulebook had already placed Apes at SM/SNA 3, so when the Bestiary was developed they had to keep the Ape in line power-wise with being available at that level (they would otherwise have made it stronger, but also increased the CR).
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Talk about a grizzly situation.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Talk about a grizzly situation.
What a terrible pun. I can't Bear it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You really had to claw your way to that punchline.
Honestly, the gorilla is soooo weird compared to real-world gorillas.
Large. Why? Males are usually up to 180 centimeters and weight about 200 pounds. Some are larger than that, but that's why we have the advanced template, right? Females are smaller. That's in line with humans and orcs.
Str 15. Why? They should be far stronger than that.
3 hit dice. Why? It's a really arbitrary number. It increases their combat power, but they could have that increase through having a strength closer to what it should be.
Honestly, I think they would've been better off if gorillas where medium-sized, had one or two hit dice, but a strength of around 20 and a con of around 18.
Hmmm, I've give that 18 to their Dex. But otherwise, yeah, I feel you on all that.
Gorillas aren't very good pickpockets. Medium size, two hit dice, Str 20, Con and Dex 14. There is not any good reason an orc warrior should have a higher Strength than a gorilla.
They're just not trained in pickpocketing.
Gorillas aren't very good pickpockets. Medium size, two hit dice, Str 20, Con and Dex 14. There is not any good reason an orc warrior should have a higher Strength than a gorilla.
Those stats sound good. Might make them a little to offensively focused compared to their defenses though. Maybe swap great fortitude for toughness, and change one of the primary slams to a secondary bite (gorillas have strong bites and two primary attacks will probably be too much with that strength). In that case, their statblock would look like this:
Gorilla CR 2
XP 600
N Medium animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13; (+2 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 16 (2d8+4+3)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee Slam +6 (1d4+5) and bite +1 (1d6+2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Toughness
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +13, Perception +4
Would that be a more reasonable gorilla?
C'mon now, we're talking about gorillas here. Chimps can settle for that 19-21 strength, but a gorilla? 24-26 MINIMUM.
(I am in no way concerned about balance for this argument. This thread is about realism after all. :) )
Strength in game terms isn't simply lifting ability or energy output. Humans can Swim, which chimps can't even do, and I'd guess a strong human is far better at swinging a weapon for damage. Apes should probably qualify for a major bonus to Climb and grapple checks.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe they have 15/00 strength.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had this same discussion in a thread when the Bestiary first came out, and, yes, JJ came in and said, "The CR was fixed at the 3.5 level due to backwards-compatibility, so we nerfed them to make them fit that CR." As far as reducing HD and jacking STR, that would interfere with the "monsters at these CRs should have these stats" table they were showcasing in the Bestiary.
So, there you have it.
For what it's worth, in my home game apes have 21 STR and 6 INT, and I don't feel bad about that at all.
Gorillas should not be size Large either -- they are nowhere near 8 feet tall. The "Ape, Gorilla" entry in the Bestiary has nothing to do with any real life animal.
|
Strength in game terms isn't simply lifting ability or energy output. Humans can Swim, which chimps can't even do, and I'd guess a strong human is far better at swinging a weapon for damage. Apes should probably qualify for a major bonus to Climb and grapple checks.
Trust me, you don't even want to know how powerful a chimp's 'swing' is. It's terrifying.
It's not a couple of points over human...it's half again what a human can do...if he's one of the best in the world.
That's a fairly average chimp.
Gorillas?
OMG.
Trust me, you don't even want to know how powerful a chimp's 'swing' is. It's terrifying.
It's not a couple of points over human...it's half again what a human can do...if he's one of the best in the world.
That's a fairly average chimp.
Gorillas?
OMG.
No chimp is ever going to bat for the Giants. Their grappling, jumping, and climbing ability is amazing, of course. In game terms, even an average chimp should start off with the equivalent of Athletic and Improved Grapple, on top of a fairly high Strength score. But humans can and do hunt apes using hand weapons.
More and more, I'm thinking that not only is Ape, Gorilla, not a real gorilla, but a lot more could be done without breaking CR guidelines. I'm kind of iffy on 2 HD versus 3 HD. 2 HD is usually enough for a formidable fighting animal, but to be honest, gorillas are infamous for taking on multiple chimps or baboons at once and winning, so maybe 3 HD is not absurd.
|
|
Trust me, you don't even want to know how powerful a chimp's 'swing' is. It's terrifying.
It's not a couple of points over human...it's half again what a human can do...if he's one of the best in the world.
That's a fairly average chimp.
Gorillas?
OMG.
No chimp is ever going to bat for the Giants. Their grappling, jumping, and climbing ability is amazing, of course. In game terms, even an average chimp should start off with the equivalent of Athletic and Improved Grapple, on top of a fairly high Strength score. But humans can and do hunt apes using hand weapons.
More and more, I'm thinking that not only is Ape, Gorilla, not a real gorilla, but a lot more could be done without breaking CR guidelines. I'm kind of iffy on 2 HD versus 3 HD. 2 HD is usually enough for a formidable fighting animal, but to be honest, gorillas are infamous for taking on multiple chimps or baboons at once and winning, so maybe 3 HD is not absurd.
They don't bat.
Given a bat, I bet they can shatter it, OTOH.
Trying to adhere to CR guidelines:
Gorilla CR 2
XP 600
N Medium animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 12, touch 11, flat-footed 11; (+1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 22 (3d8+6+3)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee Slam +7 (1d4+5) and bite +7 (1d6+5)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness, Improved Grapple (bonus feat)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +17, Perception +8
Superior jumper: Gorillas gain a +4 racial bonus to Acrobatics checks to make a long or high jump.
Differences: size is Medium, Improved Grapple as bonus feat, bite and slam instead of two slams, Str is slightly higher, natural armor is lower, scent is gone (scent? how weird).
|
|
Trying to adhere to CR guidelines:
Gorilla CR 2
XP 600
N Medium animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 12, touch 11, flat-footed 11; (+1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 22 (3d8+6+3)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee Slam +7 (1d4+5) and bite +7 (1d6+5)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness, Improved Grapple (bonus feat)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +17, Perception +8
Superior jumper: Gorillas gain a +4 racial bonus to Acrobatics checks to make a long or high jump.Differences: size is Medium, Improved Grapple as bonus feat, bite and slam instead of two slams, Str is slightly higher, natural armor is lower, scent is gone (scent? how weird).
It looks pretty good for gaming purposes. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want a realistic fight against an ape, play rolemaster.
Our entire party of 4th level characters ran like sissies when confronted with 1 bear. Why? Because being graphically and violently killed in one attack isn't fun.
To be fair, it's Rolemaster. When encountered with an angry hissing cat you should at least keep track of your exit strategy.
Maybe they have 15/00 strength.
I've seen the /00 from time to time. What does the 00 mean?
|
|
Maybe they have 15/00 strength.I've seen the /00 from time to time. What does the 00 mean?
Good old times.
In previous editions (ADD at least), your strength could go to 18 max. Then you had a percentile showing how strong you were compared to other 18 STR characters.
18/00 meant 18-100, which was the strongest you could get before reaching inhuman levels of STR (ie, 19+).
Maybe they have 15/00 strength.I've seen the /00 from time to time. What does the 00 mean?Good old times.
In previous editions (ADD at least), your strength could go to 18 max. Then you had a percentile showing how strong you were compared to other 18 STR characters.
18/00 meant 18-100, which was the strongest you could get before reaching inhuman levels of STR (ie, 19+).
There was a time when 18/00 strength was the pinnacle of what a fighter could hope for.
|
|
There was a time when 18/00 strength was the pinnacle of what a fighter could hope for.Maybe they have 15/00 strength.I've seen the /00 from time to time. What does the 00 mean?Good old times.
In previous editions (ADD at least), your strength could go to 18 max. Then you had a percentile showing how strong you were compared to other 18 STR characters.
18/00 meant 18-100, which was the strongest you could get before reaching inhuman levels of STR (ie, 19+).
...unless he had a Girdle of Giant Strength. Storm preferred. ;)
Tsh. Only halflings were allowed girdles of storm giant Str. There were, what, three of them in FR?
==Aelryinth
18/00 Strength allowed a character to lift up to 480 lbs. over his head and therefore would be the equivalent of a strength score of 22 in Pahtfinder.
ON TOPIC: 80lbs. Chimpanzees have been reported to deadlift 600 lbs. rather easy. There are less reliable sources, weird experiments from the 20ties, where Chimps pull 800-1200lbs. Ape are insanely strong.
A Silverback gorilla weights over 400 lbs. Just imagine how strong it would be. Some estimations are around 1800 lbs. lifting stregth, some go much higher.
Here is an female Orang-Utan beating a Sumowrestler in a tug of war. This guy is no strongman, but still twice as heavy as the monkey. Just look at the Ape, she isn't even trying or has any technique.
And Gorillas should be much stronger.
Now Strength 15 allows Pathfinder Gorillas only to deadlift their double double heavy load --> (134-200lbs.)x2 = 268-400lbs, which ranges up from "barely more than me" to "really strong though not quite a powerlifter". Seriously gorillas should stronger IMO.
Or even better make everyone stronger. Pathfinder chracters already are bordelrine superhuman. Put their strength in the same range too!
18/00 Strength allowed a character to lift up to 480 lbs. over his head and therefore would be the equivalent of a strength score of 22 in Pahtfinder.
ON TOPIC: 80lbs. Chimpanzees have been reported to deadlift 600 lbs. rather easy. There are less reliable sources, weird experiments from the 20ties, where Chimps pull 800-1200lbs. Ape are insanely strong.
A Silverback gorilla weights over 400 lbs. Just imagine how strong it would be. Some estimations are around 1800 lbs. lifting stregth, some go much higher.Here is an female Orang-Utan beating a Sumowrestler in a tug of war. This guy is no strongman, but still twice as heavy as the monkey. Just look at the Ape, she isn't even trying or has any technique.
And Gorillas should be much stronger.Now Strength 15 allows Pathfinder Gorillas only to deadlift their double double heavy load --> (134-200lbs.)x2 = 268-400lbs, which ranges up from "barely more than me" to "really strong though not quite a powerlifter". Seriously gorillas should stronger IMO.
Or even better make everyone stronger. Pathfinder chracters already are bordelrine superhuman. Put their strength in the same range too!
You didn't account for its large size, which gives it a x2 in carrying capacity. So it would boost that to at most 800.
Simple fix for Medium gorillas: they get a special ability that grants +2 on Strength checks to break objects and +4 Strength for carrying capacity purposes. Still, having toyed with the numbers, it seems like gorillas should really be CR 3 with Strength 23. Chimps I guess would be about 19.
It does no good comparing dead lifts, for reasons noted above. If you used, say, throwing ability, gorillas would be about a 9, and for swimming, Strength 2. You have to pick a holistic number, and with a particular attention to whatever it will be used the most for in games (not dead lifting, as a general rule).
I would like to see animals with more realistic ability scores. A human can take an ape with the appropriate weapons. Same with a tiger. Is it common, heck it is more than rare. But high level PCs are way above rare and truly exceptional. An ape is as strong as about 8 of the strongest body builders. Also keep in mind that few animals have our hand eye coordination and stamina.