And it passes the common sense test: You're more likely to notice an invisible creature that is closer, that's making more noise, talking, running, etc. And less likely to notice one that's trying to be sneaky or holding still.But with your "notice=+20" rule, being closer makes them more difficult to notice. How is that common sense? It seems you are contradicting yourself if you are saying the closer creature should be easier to detect, yet you want to give him an additional +20 modifier to make him more difficult to pinpoint.
edit: clarity
Edit that again. I have no idea what you're saying.
What additional +20 are you talking about?
As far as I can tell from the rules it's not harder to notice a close creature, it's possible. You cannot notice an invisible creature more than 30' away.
Within 30' it's 20 + Stealth roll + distance and other modifiers on the table.
So for a creature moving at half speed, 25' away with a stealth roll of 10, you would need to beat a DC of 20+10-5+2 = 27 to notice him. You'd need a 47 to pinpoint him.I'm not sure whether you can detect him at all beyond 30'. You can't notice him, but I'm not sure if that limit applies to pinpointing. I'd probably rule it does. If not the DC would be the same other than the distance modifier: DC 45 +1/10'
The extra +20 is the DC 20 notice check that you want to add to the stealth DC in addition to the +20 for being invisible.
Now if you are saying the stealth check is only 20+stealth check then I misunderstood you.
Stealth check was 10? Ok.
10+20 To start, that's 30. Half speed -5. 25. 25' away is +2, 27.
DC 27 perception check. Pinpoint is 47.
This is spot on.
;)
On a side note, I believe the RAW does not prevent you from perceiving an invisible creature beyond 30'. If your Perception is high enough to beat the range penalties AND the +20 for invisible, and you still beat their stealth check (if they're using Stealth, or DC0 -I already included the +20 for invisible - if they aren't), then you can perceive them at any distance.
The only thing you can't do is get a "notice" check, to notice the presence of an invisible creature farther than 30 feet away. The "notice" check has the range limit, but perceiving them does not. It's two separate mechanics.
I never said you can't perceive an invisible creature beyond 30 feet. I said you can't "notice". Notice with regard to invis is limited to 30 feet because all it does is let you know they are somewhere within 30 feet.
When you make a perception check you are normally trying to pinpoint their location which means you are trying to find out which square they occupy. Pinpointing does not have the 30 foot restriction. That is why pinpointing has a higher DC than "noticing".
edit:I see we agree on that.
I can go either way with that.
But it's clearly +40 to pinpoint an invisible creature, which is the only thing that might be allowed beyond 30'. The DC+20 to notice is explicitly banned. It seems odd to me that you can pinpoint them, but have no chance of determining that there's someone there but not exactly where.Or do you think something else is implied by "notice"? A free action check anytime something invisible is within 30', but you can make a check at the same DC with an action even if they're farther away maybe? The text really doesn't support that.
It is a +40 to pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving.
Notice is just a mechanic to let you know they are in the area. The pinpointing which as a higher DC is to find the square. If you pinpoint then you know where they are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that "notice" means that you get a passive perception check to notice them when they get that close.
Beyond 30' if you said "My character is looking down the hallway for anything coming." I'd give you a check as soon as the invis guy got in the hallway, with bonuses/penalties as appropriate for range/speed/etc.
If you didn't specifically request the check, you don't get one until 30'. If you were doing anything else at the time, you'd get the +5 distracted as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are adding it. You're adding it, as a modifier, to the base DC of 20 to notice an active invisible creature.
I think the answer is 47. We'll have to wait and hope for an answer to see who is right.
It does not have a + sign. How are you adding it when it doesn't have a +? How do you know you shouldn't be subtracting it instead? You are assuming you add the stealth check.
The extra +20 is the DC 20 notice check that you want to add to the stealth DC in addition to the +20 for being invisible.
Now if you are saying the stealth check is only 20+stealth check then I misunderstood you.
You misunderstood me.
I've never argued for an extra +20 for using stealth while invisible. I've occasionally argued for an extra +60 or +80, but only to prove a point. :)
Do we now agree that stealth (and distance and movement modifiers) add to the notice DC as well as the pinpoint DC?
I don't know yet.
If I make a normal stealth check of 20 while invisible, moving at less than half speed for no penalty, what is my new total after invisibility is counted into the equation?
convince Wraithstrike that being good at sneaking really does help people not notice you when you're invisible and we're done. :)
That was Bigdaddyjug making that argument, not me.
The extra +20 is the DC 20 notice check that you want to add to the stealth DC in addition to the +20 for being invisible.
Now if you are saying the stealth check is only 20+stealth check then I misunderstood you.
You misunderstood me.
I've never argued for an extra +20 for using stealth while invisible. I've occasionally argued for an extra +60 or +80, but only to prove a point. :)
Do we now agree that stealth (and distance and movement modifiers) add to the notice DC as well as the pinpoint DC?
I don't know yet.
If I make a normal stealth check of 20 while invisible, moving at less than half speed for no penalty, what is my new total after invisibility is counted into the equation?
** spoiler omitted **
If you're within 10' and not incurring any of the other penalties
Notice DC 40
Pinpoint DC 60.
The -5 only comes into play if you move up to half your speed. Less than half you speed has no penalty.
How are you getting a DC 60 pinpoint while moving?
That is why I said before that you are adding the DC 20 notice, + stealth check +20. That is the only way to get 60 if you roll a 20 on stealth.
You do know that being invisible only give you a +20 to stealth.
You get another +20 on top of that if you are not moving. That is in the invisibility chart, and in the invisibility spell.
Wait. It's a +60 to pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving, right? It's a +40 to notice.
Stealth +20 for invisible + 20 to pinpoint +20 for not moving = Stealth +60.
As I said, it still seems strange if you can pinpoint someone far away, but can't with an easier check notice they're somewhere out there.
No.
Notice doesn't care about Stealth or not. The "notice" rule doesn't say "DC 20 or DC Stealth+20 to notice an invisible creature within 30 feet". It just says DC 20. If you succeed, you get a "hunch" that something is out there somewhere but you don't know what or where. Notice also doesn't seem to care whether the creature is moving or not - note that the sentence "There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this check" is referencing the most recent antecedent, the Pinpoint check, not the Notice check. It it were meant to apply these modifiers to both checks, the sentence should have use the plural: "...applied to these checks."
Once you have your hunch, or for any other reason even without the hunch, you decide to look for it. This is when the "pinpoint" rules come in and the "notice" rules go out. Notice gives you a hunch with limited range, no modifiers, and no details, Pinpoint gives you details with unlimited range and applicable modifiers, but no hunch. Two different mechanics for two different things. You don't combine their bonuses.
To pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving and not using stealth is DC 0 + 20 (invisible) + 20 (not moving).
To pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving but is using stealth is DC Stealth + 20 (invisible) + 20 (not moving).
In both cases, the modifier is +40 for a non-moving invisible creature. Not +60. Or, in other words, you don't get +20 for being invisible and +20 for pinpointing because that means you're getting the invisibility bonus twice (nobody needs to pinpoint non-invisible creatures, it's automatic, so pinpointing is specific to being invisible, hence, +20 for invisible and +20 for invisible/pinpointing is really +40 for being invisible, 2x the stated bonus).
Or one other way to look at it:
To "pinpoint" a visible creature that is not moving and not using stealth is DC 0. The bonus for being invisible doesn't apply, and the bonus for being not moving only applies when invisible too.
To "pinpoint" a visible creature that is not moving but is using stealth is DC Stealth.
In both cases, the modifier is +0 because the creature is visible. The Invisibility spell says you get +40 for non-moving or +20 for moving. Perception check agrees. The text and modifiers in the Invisibility Special Ability section agree: "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check" and from the modifiers table "Not moving +20"
Therefore, applying multiple stacks of the same bonus is not in agreement with any of these rules.
convince Wraithstrike that being good at sneaking really does help people not notice you when you're invisible and we're done. :)
That was Bigdaddyjug making that argument, not me.
I thought you were claiming that the notice DCs were flat set DCs and he was claiming Stealth while invisible gave you an extra +20 bonus on top of the +20 from being invisible.
It is also a DC 40 to notice an invisible non moving creature.
In short the DC for notice are flat DCs. This is backed by 3.5 devs, and what I quoted was their version of the FAQ system, and it matches what the book says about invisibility. Well they say "hide" instead of stealth, but other than that the words are the except for rules PF took out such as the DC 30 which I said no longer exist.
The DC's to pinpoint are where stealth comes into play.
No I argued against that nonsense.
I am saying the notice DC are flat DC's, but I also said they are not run the same when you actively try to stealth.
In other words that flat DC 20 to notice is NOT to be used at all when you actively try to stealth.
I can go either way with that.
But it's clearly +40 to pinpoint an invisible creature, which is the only thing that might be allowed beyond 30'. The DC+20 to notice is explicitly banned. It seems odd to me that you can pinpoint them, but have no chance of determining that there's someone there but not exactly where.Or do you think something else is implied by "notice"? A free action check anytime something invisible is within 30', but you can make a check at the same DC with an action even if they're farther away maybe? The text really doesn't support that.
It is a +40 to pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving.
Notice is just a mechanic to let you know they are in the area. The pinpointing which as a higher DC is to find the square. If you pinpoint then you know where they are.
Wait. It's a +60 to pinpoint an invisible creature that is not moving, right? It's a +40 to notice.
Stealth +20 for invisible + 20 to pinpoint +20 for not moving = Stealth +60.
As I said, it still seems strange if you can pinpoint someone far away, but can't with an easier check notice they're somewhere out there.
No
The DC 20 for being notice already includes the modifier for being invisible. That is why it is a flat 20.Now the rules already say the notice rules only apply to active creatures so him not moving does not help. However the rules also say that there is a +20 for pinpointing the noticed creature so you get a DC of 40.
Step back one step. What's the DC to notice a slow moving invisible guy not using stealth?
I say DC 20.
To pinpoint him is +20 -> DC 40.To notice the invisible guy with a 20 Stealth is his Stealth + 20 -> DC 40.
To pinpoint him is another +20 -> DC 60.
If not moving, it's another +20 on top of all of those.
What would you say the DCs for those cases are?
(side note, don't we have enough 20's in this discussion - couldn't this guy have a stealth check of 19, just to make it easier to figure out what we're talking about? I'm going to use 19).
What's the DC to notice a slow moving invisible guy not using stealth?
DC 20.
To pinpoint him is 20. (DC 0 +20 for pinpointing a moving invisible guy)
To notice the invisible guy with a 19 Stealth DC 20 (the invisibility modifiers are not applied to the "notice" rule - see my previous post).
To pinpoint him is another Stealth + 20 = DC 39.
If not moving, it's another +20 to the pinpoint DC but not to the notice DC (the invisibility modifiers are not applied tot he "notice" rule - see my previous post).
The -5 only comes into play if you move up to half your speed. Less than half you speed has no penalty.How are you getting a DC 60 pinpoint while moving?
That is why I said before that you are adding the DC 20 notice, + stealth check +20. That is the only way to get 60 if you roll a 20 on stealth.
You do know that being invisible only give you a +20 to stealth.
You get another +20 on top of that if you are not moving. That is in the invisibility chart, and in the invisibility spell.
Step back one step. What's the DC to notice a slow moving invisible guy not using stealth?
I say DC 20.
To pinpoint him is +20 -> DC 40.To notice the invisible guy with a 20 Stealth is his Stealth + 20 -> DC 40.
To pinpoint him is another +20 -> DC 60.
If not moving, it's another +20 on top of all of those.
What would you say the DCs for those cases are?
Why would he move slow while invisible without trying to use stealth?
The problem here is that you keep trying to add the notice 20 DC to the stealth roll. That is why I said earlier you keep adding an extra 20.
That DC 20 to be notice already accounts for invisiblity.
If it did not then the DC would be 0+distance, and not 20+distance per the 3.5 article.
That 20 in the 3.5 article is only there because the person is invisible.
Once you start trying to pinpoint someone you have to use the stealth skill which is there to help you figure you the perception DC to pinpoint someone.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
The above quote is in the spell, and in the invis chart. It says nothing about adding the D20 from being noticed also.
convince Wraithstrike that being good at sneaking really does help people not notice you when you're invisible and we're done. :)
That was Bigdaddyjug making that argument, not me.
I thought you were claiming that the notice DCs were flat set DCs and he was claiming Stealth while invisible gave you an extra +20 bonus on top of the +20 from being invisible.
It is also a DC 40 to notice an invisible non moving creature.
In short the DC for notice are flat DCs. This is backed by 3.5 devs, and what I quoted was their version of the FAQ system, and it matches what the book says about invisibility. Well they say "hide" instead of stealth, but other than that the words are the except for rules PF took out such as the DC 30 which I said no longer exist.
The DC's to pinpoint are where stealth comes into play.
No I argued against that nonsense.
I am saying the notice DC are flat DC's, but I also said they are not run the same when you actively try to stealth.
In other words that flat DC 20 to notice is NOT to be used at all when you actively try to stealth.
So how is it run? Is there no chance to notice, you can only pinpoint?
You get a perception check as a reaction to stimulus in the area. In other words you get a free perception check if the creature is active since the creature has to be active in order for the DC 20 check to come into play.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action
Now let's assume the creature is active, and within 30 feet. Let's also assume they are trying to be stealthy.
If you roll below their stealth check, but above a 20 then you know they are in the area.On your next turn you make a perception check as a move action to try to find out which square they are in. If you don't make the DC 20 check to at least notice them, you will have no way to know they are around unless another party member tells you about it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The +20DC to pinpoint is a modifier to the DC 20 check to notice. Otherwise, it's exactly the same check to notice a slow moving creature as to pinpoint it, which makes no sense. Hell, a creature with bad stealth could be easier to pinpoint than notice.
The extra +20 is what "practically impossible" means. It's a lot harder to pinpoint an invisible creature than to notice them. And that's true whether they're sneaking, running, or standing still.
Or go back to the 3.5 article Wraithstrike linked before, it lists for both Spot and Listen Notice and pinpoint DCs. The pinpoints are +20. Confirmation that it was the intent, at least at that point. Using pretty much the same language in the rules, especially for Listen.
No, the +20 DC to pinpoint is a modifier to the Perception check to see/perceive/pinpoint it. Not to the "notice" check.
You say "Otherwise, it's exactly the same check to notice a slow moving creature as to pinpoint it", but this is exactly what the RAW says. Hear me out. Your sentence, which I just quoted, says nothing about invisibility, so let's start there.
What is the DC to notice a slow-moving visible creature? DC 0.
What is the DC to "pinpoint" (know the exact location of) a slow-moving visible creature? DC 0.
Those are the same. Check the Perception rules if you disagree. So already, the RAW says that it really IS "exactly the same check to notice a slow moving creature as to pinpoint it". Yeah, I know, nobody ever rolls Perception checks for either of those things, but yet, the RAW still has rules for it if you want to.
Invisibility adds +20 to each of those checks, which still leaves it exactly the same. More importantly, the Invisibility spell says it adds +20 for moving creatures. Period. The spell doesn't say +20 to notice them and +40 to pinpoint them. Just +20. The Perception skill says the same thing. And so does the Stealth skill. They all say +20 for a moving creature.
Which is why the Invisibility special ability also says the same thing: +20 for a slowly moving invisible creature. Period.
Because he's not skilled in stealth, but knows going slow helps? I don't know. Or care. I was just trying to build up the numbers.
And now we know where the disconnect is. Which I didn't before.
So instead: Consider the charging invisible guy. He can't use stealth. It's not allowed while charging.
Flat DC 20 to notice he's around.
DC 0 to pinpoint him.Or, as I suggested to DM_Blake, look back at that 3.5 article and check out the Notice and Pinpoint DCs. Each Pinpoint is 20 more than the Notice. The Spot ones are flat DCs. The Listen are based on what the invisible guy is doing. Either way, it's always 20 harder to pinpoint than to notice.
It does not work like that..
The 20 is not added to stealth.
It is only added to the perception DC.
Just because it is added to the perception DC in some situations, that does not mean it is added to the stealth roll as a modifier.
As an example if someone is standing out in the open and they are suddenly invisible the DC jumps by 20, however since they are not trying to hide you can't just say their stealth check just got better by 20.
The DC to be noticed as an example is not even a stealth check, and nothing in the book says that the 20 from notice is added to any stealth check.
In short you can't always just add 20 and assume that is how the game does it.
So just to be absolutely clear here, it's just as easy, DC20, to notice that my ultra sneaky Stealth +45 rogue is invisible nearby as it is to notice that Big Clumsy Clanky fighter is invisible nearby?
In fact, assuming appropriate lighting/concealment conditions and everything else the same, you'd be more likely to know my ultra sneak rogue was around if he was invisible than if he wasn't?
It would be harder to know what square he was in, but you don't have the Perception for that either way.
To notice yes, to pinpoint no.
Why would you rogue be more likely to be detected if he was invisible? I am not following that.
If I do understand you then invisibility does not care about the light level. If he can't be seen then he can't be seen.
I don't care where you add it. I don't care if you say it's a stealth bonus or a Perception modifier.
I didn't say anyone got better at stealth. I didn't say anything got added to a stealth check. All I care about is the final DC.Do you agree that a charging invisible guy, who can't use stealth and isn't using stealth is harder to Notice than to Pinpoint?
Flat DC20 to Notice
DC 0 + 20 invisibility - 20 charging = 0 to Pinpoint.Does that match your understanding of the rule?
Does it make sense to you that it should be easier to know where he is than that he's around at all?My interpretation...
The charging guy should be easier to notice using real life logic, but the game does not work that way. Since he is not using the stealth rules he is not taking that penalty to stealth.
Now you could go to the perception skill and try to use the unfavorable condition modifier, but that is GM Fiat.
So just to be absolutely clear here, it's just as easy, DC20, to notice that my ultra sneaky Stealth +45 rogue is invisible nearby as it is to notice that Big Clumsy Clanky fighter is invisible nearby?
In fact, assuming appropriate lighting/concealment conditions and everything else the same, you'd be more likely to know my ultra sneak rogue was around if he was invisible than if he wasn't?
It would be harder to know what square he was in, but you don't have the Perception for that either way.To notice yes, to pinpoint no.
Why would you rogue be more likely to be detected if he was invisible? I am not following that.
If I do understand you then invisibility does not care about the light level. If he can't be seen then he can't be seen.
If he wasn't invisible, but the light level was low enough that he could still use stealth, you wouldn't have a chance of even knowing he was around. There's no "Flat DC 20 Notice" rule for stealth. You either make the Perception check or you don't.
If you're trying to sneak by the guards without raising an alarm, for example, the last thing you want them doing is ringing bells shouting "There's an invisible spy!" |
I see what you mean. The super ninja guy does not have to worry about being notice if it is visible but with low lighting, but the moment he becomes invisible it is easier to know he is there with a flat check.
Yeah I see your point, but I think it is done to keep invisibility in check. Personally I would have just have invisibility a higher level spell, and less common in the game.
I see what you mean now.
The +20 to pinpoint either begins with the DC 20 notice check or the stealth check. This all assumes the charger is invisible.
Now we have a DC 20 to notice the active charger
+20 to pinpoint
That means the DC to pin point is now 40
However we have a -20 due to the charge.
The brings the pinpoint DC back to 20 which is the same as the notice DC.
-----------------------------------------------
I will break the rules down here.
Visible creature is a DC 0
Once he is invisible it takes a 20 to notice him due to invisibility.
If you want to pinpoint the creature and it is active then you have to hit a DC of 40 for the perception check.
That establishes 40 as the pinpoint DC using the notice DC as the starting point.
Now some will want to try to add the +20 for not moving to the pinpoint DC to make it 60, but we can't do that.
Why not?
Good question. The notice DC of 20 works off of an active creature, so if the creature is not active then that DC 20 to be noticed never comes into play.
Now you will ask, what do we use.
Well invisibility is in play so the DC to pinpoint a nonactive invisible creature is still a combined +40.
You get a +20 for being invisible, and +20 for not moving. That equals 40.
And you guys thought my interpretation of stealth and invisibility was whacked? You guys have it easier to pinpoint than just notice. That makes TONS of sense.
Actually it is NOT easier under my interpretation. You are free to give a breakdown of what you thought I was saying, and then I can tell you where the miscommunication was.
Even if that was what I intended, I would just tell you the rules don't always make sense per RAW.
Ok. Running with this for the moment and walking through a couple of examples.
Invisible guy not using stealth
If he's immobile:
Can't be noticed.
Pinpoint DC40: (20 invisible + 20 immobile)Moving at less than half speed.
Notice DC20
Pinpoint DC40: (20 invisible + 20 notice)
- Strange that moving doesn't make you easier to pinpoint.
I guess they felt that having to move less half your speed was enough of a penalty, and it keeps it in line with the stealth chart. That also makes stealth difficult to use in combat if you are restricted to half speed movement.
If he uses stealth, but isn't very good at it what happens?
Assume Stealth check+roll = 10.If he's immobile:
Can't be noticed.
Pinpoint DC50: (20 invisible + 20 immobile + 10 Stealth)Moving at less than half speed.
Notice DC20
Pinpoint DC30: (20 invisible + 10 stealth)
Because you use the stealth roll as a base instead of the notice, if you're using stealth right?
That is correct.
With a high stealth, you're better off sneaking of course, but with low one, it can hurt you. That's weird.
Yeah stealth helps when you don't move, but is not your buddy when you do move, and it is strange, but only within 30 feet.
This is mentioned in the 3.5 article to an extent when they reference invisibility and hiding.
Invisibility and Hiding
As noted in the description for the Hide skill, you gain a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you're moving and +40 on Hide checks if you're not moving........
When making your Hide check, apply all the modifiers that normally apply to the check (such as Armor Check penalties and penalties for your movement). Perceptive readers will note that you're effectively paying a double penalty for moving here because the bonus for being invisible is lower and you take a Hide check penalty for that movement as well. That, however, is the nature of invisibility in the D&D game. Any movement makes you easier to spot while you're invisible, whereas your speed makes it harder for you to hide and the effect gets worse the faster you go.
Compare to:
Active creature 20 40
The 20 is the spot to notice, and the 40 is the spot to locate(Pathfinder uses pinpoint).
Now I agree it makes no sense for someone trying to be sneaky to be easier to find. Invis is not used much in my games, but I am thinking about using the stealth roll or 40 when moving, whichever is higher for the invisible creature. That way they at least get a 40.
Yeah stealth helps when you don't move, but is not your buddy when you do move, and it is strange, but only within 30 feetWait, what do you mean "only within 30 feet"?
What do think the DC to pinpoint an invisible creature 40' away would be?
Continue assuming moving less than half speed and 10 Stealth result, to keep things simple.
Both sneaking and not sneaking?
I was just saying the notice DC only comes into play within 30 feet. That is all.
This also matches with the old 3.5 rules, where the Pinpoint was definitely a hard +20 to the Notice.
No it does not.
They said the hide check hide check +20 for being invisible. I thought I quoted that. That is why for PF I said it was stealth +20(for being invisible).
There is no quote in the link I provided that adds the 20(for notice) to the 20(pinpointing)+stealth check.
As noted in the description for the Hide skill, you gain a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you're moving and +40 on Hide checks if you're not moving.
See it says the same thing I said. You get a +40 to hide(PF Stealth) if you are not moving, and a 20 if you are moving.
It also references the hide skill.
Now let's see what that says.
Here is what it says:
Special
If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
That means hide roll+40(not moving) or hide roll+20(moving).
It does not mean "hide roll+40(not moving) or hide roll+20(moving)" + another 20 from notice.
I was just saying the notice DC only comes into play within 30 feet. That is all.Yeah stealth helps when you don't move, but is not your buddy when you do move, and it is strange, but only within 30 feetWait, what do you mean "only within 30 feet"?
What do think the DC to pinpoint an invisible creature 40' away would be?
Continue assuming moving less than half speed and 10 Stealth result, to keep things simple.
Both sneaking and not sneaking?I disagree. I feel that 1 of 2 things is correct when the invisible creature is more than 30 ft away. Either you cannot notice ir pinpoint them at all. Or, the base DC20 to notice is increased by 1 per 10 ft beyond 30 ft and the +20 to pinpoint is added as well.
It makes absolutely no sense that outside of 30 ft you can pinpoint but not notice.
The rules specifically limit you to noticing within 30 feet, just like 3.5 did. If there was no limit then 30 feet would no be mentioned.
Here is a quote.
Spot DC to Notice: If the check is successful, you merely know there's something unseen within 30 feet of you. If the invisible thing is more than 30 feet away, you cannot notice it with a Spot check.
Now here is the actual 3.5 rules quote:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.
Now as you can see the rules are virtually the same so there is no noticing past 30 feet.
I have given a breakdown of what I think you're saying.
As I understand it, under your interpretation, in some cases it can be easier to pinpoint than to notice.Your Notice DC is always 20, if the creature is active.
Your Pinpoint DC is either
: the Notice DC +20 + modifiers if the creature is active and not stealthy,
: Stealth check + 20 + modifiers if the creature is stealthy.
: 40 if the creature is immobile (and not stealthy?)When the stealth check + modifiers is negative, it will be easier to Pinpoint the creature than to Notice it. This can be any combination of negative modifiers, low stealth skill and bad rolls.
More importantly, any time your Stealth skill + roll is likely to be less than 20, it's better not to stealth and just use the base DC 20 notice check rather than try stealth. Trying to be sneaky actually hurts your chances.Example: Character with 1 rank in stealth, 10 Dex and -3 Armor penalty, moving at half speed
Rolls a 3 = Stealth = 1 + 0 -3 + 3 = 1
Notice DC 20
Pinpoint DC 20 +1 -5 = 16Pinpoint if he hadn't tried stealth: DC 20 + 20 -5 = DC35
The part I bolded is incorrect. It should be:
Pinpoint if he hadn't tried stealth: DC 0 + 20 -5 = DC15
Which, you'll notice, is less than even the bad Stealth you cited.
Frankly, if someone's stealth is that bad, they probably know it. Very little skill, no training, with clanky/creaky armor. They actually are just better off moving through the area than trying to sneak. In any case, the Invisibility doesn't matter. This guy in your example is bad at Stealth even when he has no Invisibility. If the same guy tried to do the same thing without Invisibility, these would be his DCs:
Character with 1 rank in stealth, 10 Dex and -3 Armor penalty, moving at half speed
Rolls a 3 = Stealth = 1 + 0 -3 + 3 = 1
See DC 1
See if he hadn't tried stealth: DC 0
Exactly the same difference. His inability to use Stealth combined with an unlucky roll (maybe he stepped on a twig) made him only 1 point harder to see than if he had just walked through the area without Stealth. Exactly the same as when he tried Invisibility, but at least with Invisibility, the magic made him harder to find.
Or, the guy could just Take 10 on his Stealth check, in both cases (invisible and not invisible), to avoid stepping on twigs, in which case both of his stealth checks would have been 8 points better than his unstealthed alternative, which makes it still very beneficial to use Stealth, even when you're as bad at it as this guy.