Goblin Squad Member
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Having played a harvester in more than one MMO, I have benefited from various icons or colored dots representing nodes, animals, enemies, etc. on game mini-maps. Some of those games, being hi-tech sci-fi themed, provided a better in-character reason for my being able to get an aerial view of my surroundings via the little radar-style blips on my screen. However, in fantasy games, this seems less realistic (barring telepathic links to flying familiars and the like).
The point of this post is to learn what my fellow PFO-ers wish to have in the game when it launches. Personally, I want to have to delve into that wilderness hex to know that it contains something juicy, rather than just skim the edge of it and see what shows up on my mini-map. I'd also rather have to keep an eye out for nasties and bad guys, rather than track them like in-coming missiles.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm wondering what it would be like, to play without a mini map at all. You see in what direction you are looking in, and see what objects you detect, or observe.
Need to see where you are in the world, take out map, cross reference with the physical features or the sky, around and above you.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It would be nice to have some kind of acknowledgement that I'm missing a large fraction of my field of view along with kinesthetic information and small details that help to establish location and orientation.
Implementation could be any combination of a compass, indications of things both in and out of my field of view, or automated maps and localizing.
At the very least, recognize that third-party software will exist and attempting to fight it is a losing proposition; players who choose so will be aware of their character's surroundings regardless.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I'm wondering what it would be like, to play without a mini map at all. You see in what direction you are looking in, and see what objects you detect, or observe.
Need to see where you are in the world, take out map, cross reference with the physical features or the sky, around and above you.
Exciting and wondrous the first few times; then really frustrating and boring after a while. Being lost isn't fun for me, and I get enough of it in my daily life, thanks.
It would also completely stuff anyone playing on a low-end machine with the graphics turned right down.
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It would also completely stuff anyone playing on a low-end machine with the graphics turned right down.
It may sound rough, but designers cannot design a game based on the assumption that people with outdated hardware are going to be running it. A game is just that, a game and a luxury item, and building systems in PFOL assuming someone cant figure out where they are because they cant afford a GPU is financial, and aesthetic suicide.
My final point is if this is supposed to be a role-playing world with the focus on actually DOING that instead of grinding for DPS and the best in slot gear, then anything that breaks the 4th wall is actively damaging to the design intent of the entire game, and I certainly think a magical minimap that automatically updates is beyond that border of believability. The idea that literally everyone has a floating eyeball 2 miles above them that follows them around and displays it conveniently to the PC is just silly in a fantasy game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am in favor of doing without an automatic mini map. It breaks immersion and is not really needed in a game without super theme park quest chains and fixed resource spots to cruise and chip at.
Some mechanic, based on skills earned and learned would be fine. It would be nice to be able to see how the settlements spring up and spread out as things develop.
Maybe the minimap could be bigger or smaller depending on a level or the like. Just a thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, gathering resources wont be like other MMOs where you find a little node, push a button and watch a bar fill up for 2-3 seconds. In PFO when you find a resource you'll then need to bring in workers and build a work camp to gather the resource, and you'll be pecking away at the same spot for hours or days. All the while having to defend it from hostile NPCs and other players.
For all this, I think the exploration required to find a resource is very important, and having an icon showing you where it is out of place, at least without some sort of rare divination spell.
I also do not think we should have a minimap at all, it just doesn't fit the game I think. We should still have a map that we can bring up though, one that fills in automatically as we explore as well as letting us add our own notes and markers. Just not a mini-map in the corner of the screen. Being able to buy pre-filled hex maps from settlements would be good too.
It might be interesting if dungeon maps had to be drawn manually too, but I can see that being frustrating and a huge turn off to many players. Could maybe make it an option though...
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, gathering resources wont be like other MMOs where you find a little node, push a button and watch a bar fill up for 2-3 seconds. In PFO when you find a resource you'll then need to bring in workers and build a work camp to gather the resource, and you'll be pecking away at the same spot for hours or days. All the while having to defend it from hostile NPCs and other players.
Actually, PFO will have both types.
Harvesting nodes will appear throughout the world, and players can interact with them using the correct profession skills to acquire a small number of components. For some nodes, this may require the player to have a particular harvesting tool. These are very similar to the way harvesting is handled in other MMOs...
Gathering nodes will often appear in hexes. These are very large sources of material (mines, stands of trees, magical essence junctures, etc.). The player must place a gathering kit of the correct type near the node. This spawns a storage object and some additional art to indicate that the node is actively undergoing gathering...
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, gathering resources wont be like other MMOs where you find a little node, push a button and watch a bar fill up for 2-3 seconds. In PFO when you find a resource you'll then need to bring in workers and build a work camp to gather the resource, and you'll be pecking away at the same spot for hours or days. All the while having to defend it from hostile NPCs and other players.Actually, PFO will have both types.
Harvesting nodes will appear throughout the world, and players can interact with them using the correct profession skills to acquire a small number of components. For some nodes, this may require the player to have a particular harvesting tool. These are very similar to the way harvesting is handled in other MMOs...
Gathering nodes will often appear in hexes. These are very large sources of material (mines, stands of trees, magical essence junctures, etc.). The player must place a gathering kit of the correct type near the node. This spawns a storage object and some additional art to indicate that the node is actively undergoing gathering...
Thanks Nihimon. I forgot about that blurb. :) So, small time, "backpack" miners will be possible. I like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want there to be a mini-map. If there isn't one, then people will make a client hack that adds it back in, making it so only those that cheat have the benefit of it. What I would like, is for the mini-map to take a page from the Eschalon series, and show more detail based on your cartography skill level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Me too...I don't want to be a harvesting tycoon, just want to gather here and there as I explore.
I wonder if that will include the 300 lvl resources? Seems like they would be the most rare and therefor only available in small lots. Then again, might take a big OP to get just a little of the best stuff.
Interesting...
Goblinworks Founder
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I feel as though a mini map wouldn't fit the game as much as it would be helpful and convenient I don't like the idea of it. I would however love the idea of people having the ability with the proper supplies and skills to make a map of their own to make their own landmarks and get updates on by their own adventures and to share or sell to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want there to be a mini-map. If there isn't one, then people will make a client hack that adds it back in, making it so only those that cheat have the benefit of it. What I would like, is for the mini-map to take a page from the Eschalon series, and show more detail based on your cartography skill level.
Ooooh I would like that.
Have a basic map, Cartography skill can give you a very detailed map
Maybe a mining or ore-related skill allows you to see Nodes.
So you could have a map with little detail but can see the nodes but are unaware of the Terran, but having both skills will give you a nice detailed map with detailed locations of mineral/ore nodes.
I feel as though a mini map wouldn't fit the game as much as it would be helpful and convenient I don't like the idea of it. I would however love the idea of people having the ability with the proper supplies and skills to make a map of their own to make their own landmarks and get updates on by their own adventures and to share or sell to others.
You bring up a good point. Perhaps an even-ground alternative would be allow players with proper skills as listed above along with the Imbrication quote. To create appropriately detailed maps.
You can then use/sell these maps, players with the maps could open them up (UO or MMO style in its own moveable on-screen asset).
Then the cartographer created map can orientate its self North-Aligned (like a mini-map) This would function as the character knowing how to hold the map properly (could use a survival skill check for this if the character fails it then they would the map improperly which would mis-orientate the map)
This I feel would be a nice compromise and be really neat feature.
So no mini-map by default.
you need to make or purchase a map to gain a map.
The quality of map and listed nodes depend on who crafted it.
and the ability for the map to function as a accurate mini-map can vary based on the users skill checks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"No mini-map by default" translates to "third party packet sniffing program will be developed and released within a month".
How about a UI toggle for the mini-map? Those who want to play hard mode/maximum immersion can turn their own mini-map off. Those who want a mini-map will get one, even if they have to break the end user license agreement (EULA) to do it. EQ1 and WOW proved this years ago.
Purchasing an in-game item map to increase the utility of the mini-map might work, if it results in the server sending data that it otherwise wouldn't send.
Basic data on the character's immediate surroundings has to be sent regardless, so the client knows what to draw if the player rotates the character. If data is available, it WILL be read by somebody. No amount of verisimilitude-seeking is going to change that.
Always remember, some people will play this as a computer game, just like an FPS or Tetris. If you don't want them to have a huge advantage over people who roleplay their characters, don't force anyone to pretend that information isn't being transmitted. Give people the option top turn of the mini-map, but don't make it only appear if you buy an in-game map.
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Goblin Squad Member
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hmmm Karlbob that is a very good point. Even though it would be immersion breaking to have a mini-map by default it is indeed a necessary evil as A mini map will be available to those who don't want to follow the rules.
That said the suggestion to only send the essential minimal data needed for the game to function as intended and display that on the mini map.
With the option of using better maps, better map-reading skills, or awareness skills to trigger the sending and display of more advanced and detailed information would be wonderful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It might be interesting if dungeon maps had to be drawn manually too, but I can see that being frustrating and a huge turn off to many players. Could maybe make it an option though...
O man...that takes me back to manually mapping out Wizardry 1 on the NES. I would really enjoy this option OR it even being a necessary task...could that provide an opportunity for players to provide their services of mapping out dungeons & selling it to interested customers - which could also play into the more devious or mischievous players utilizing this "service" to dupe those who are hasty to trust to suit their own business methods ;)
I'm for not having a mini-map & learning to use my own eyes in the world to attain as well as keep my sense of direction. Just my opinion of course!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really, I think the game would benefit from having a mix of Casual and Hardcore servers. Hardcore servers wouldn't exactly be higher difficulty, but they wouldn't give you things like mini-maps and other realism/atmosphere breaking things.
I want there to be a mini-map. If there isn't one, then people will make a client hack that adds it back in, making it so only those that cheat have the benefit of it.
Those who want a mini-map will get one, even if they have to break the end user license agreement (EULA) to do it. EQ1 and WOW proved this years ago. (and several more paragraphs repeating that same point)
That's almost a good point, except that cheaters will always have benefits and advantages over non-cheaters. That's the whole point of cheating.
Mini-maps are, frankly, a rather minor thing, and I'd rather that cheaters are focusing on things like that then using macros and other hacks that give them really unfair advantages. They aren't going to though, they're going to hack and cheat ALL THE THINGS. It's pretty much unavoidable, so #$%@ 'em. Why put things in the game just to cater to cheaters? @#$% 'em. The more you give them the more they'll take anyways.If you're building a game to try and appease the jerks that don't respect it, then you're building the game wrong.
I like maps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another way of putting my point is "We don't have to re-invent the wheel every time." This discussion has happened many times over, relating to many MMOs. Pathfinder Online will certainly innovate in lots of ways, but things like "Include a mini-map" are reliable, time-tested pieces of MMO design advice.
For those who don't want to use the mini-map, GW can easily include a toggle to take it off their screens, without denying it to everyone else.
PFO is being written to run as one world, with every single player in it. There won't be multiple servers*. Everybody, from every continent and every time zone, could theoretically log in at the same time, travel to the same place, and have a giant, server-crashing brawl, or take a gigantic group photo.
Splitting the game into a hardcore immersion server and a casual immersion server is extremely unlikely, for some (not all) of the reasons that were discussed when people asked to have a PVE-only server and a PVE/PVP server. Please see the relevant many-page threads for details.
Edit: Using the mini-map isn't, and shouldn't be, cheating. I like maps, too, but I'm confident that mini-maps aren't going away any time soon.
Edit 2: * There won't be "multiple servers" in the sense that players mean it: multiple copies of the world. There will of course be lots of the individual pieces of computer hardware called servers. Running an MMO on one computer would require a supercomputer. Hmmmm.... That could be neat, if someone like Bill Gates decided to fund an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I would take issue with your assumption, Karl Bob. Nothing personal.
I'm not thinking only of minimaps, but of any accepted convention. Just because it is considered standard, or traditional, or expected does not mean it is necessary or even 'right' for a particular game design, especially where that game is non-standard, unconventional, and innovative.
It depends on the design and vision of the game, not on player expectations, not on traditions, not on convention.
Were it otherwise, if it is necessary for every new game to have all the elements other games had, it would be nothing new. No room to grow or evolve.
Expecting rain does not mean it will rain. Rain means rain. Expecting minimaps is not an adequate reason to have minimaps built in.
Don't bother telling me the game will never work without them, I have already heard that argument and it is hogwash.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Vanguard tried to appease the sentiment that mini-maps and too-easy access to information were a detriment to "the experience". Vanguard is a miserable failure.
Mini-maps should be in the game because they're useful.
The idea that developers can craft "the game experience" by removing some features and frustrating the players is hogwash.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: Thanks Being, you addressed that pretty well, so I won't bother.
However...
Splitting the game into a hardcore immersion server and a casual immersion server is extremely unlikely, for some (not all) of the reasons that were discussed when people asked to have a PVE-only server and a PVE/PVP server. Please see the relevant many-page threads for details.
I'm not in that thread, I'm in this one. Feel free to reiterate those reasons for me though, I'll appreciate it. Seems pretty obvious though; the game's core systems are dependent on near-full PVP, so having PVE only severs would mean basically making a whole other game. Having Casual/Hardcore servers would also require a lot of work, I admit, though not nearly as much. Also, we didn't throw a million dollars at them on kickstarter so that they could take the easy route.
Edit: Using the mini-map isn't, and shouldn't be, cheating. I like maps, too, but I'm confident that mini-maps aren't going away any time soon.
I didn't say mini-maps were cheating, I said that hacking the game to put mini-maps into it is cheating.
Also, stop living in the last decade, we're well into a new one now, time to shake things up a bit! (Mini-maps are so 00's :P)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, Being. I'll just say that until the game can replace my peripheral vision, directional hearing, sense of smell and ability to feel vibrations, I don't want to play an MMO without a mini-map.
You'll note that I specified that we don't have to re-invent the wheel Every Time, which leaves room for GW to re-invent the wheel Sometimes. I also acknowledged that PFO will innovate in many ways. There's a difference, though, between innovating and ignoring the lessons learned by people who have traveled this road before us.
Keep the good, improve the mediocre, drop the bad, and then you only have to invent the things that nobody else has ever done.
To me, providing additional detail over the basic mini-map if the character owns an in-game map counts as improving the mediocre.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, Being. I'll just say that until the game can replace my peripheral vision, directional hearing, sense of smell and ability to feel vibrations, I don't want to play an MMO without a mini-map.
Peripheral vision: Wide-screen and third person. Covered.
Directional hearing: 3D sound and surround sound, also headphones. Covered.
Sense of smell: You really want smell-o-vision? Games don't even use smell, and mini-maps usually don't either. Not covered but not needed.
Vibrations: Rumble controllers, force feedback chairs, low bass and/or sub-woofers. Covered.
Guess you don't need mini-maps!
EDIT: You must have a really hard time reading books.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, Being. I'll just say that until the game can replace my peripheral vision, directional hearing, sense of smell and ability to feel vibrations, I don't want to play an MMO without a mini-map...
What a remarkable and innovative argument. Very convincing reasoning. Integral. I know not why I didn't see it before.
Peripheral vision is pretty much a non-issue in 3rd person. Directional hearing is solvable using surround sound (unless you prefer to listen to your music instead of paying attention to the sounds in the game). Your sense of smell... I think I would consider that failure a blessing. Vibrations, too, can be somewhat achieved.
But you'll take your bag and marbles home if you don't get your way.
Remarkable. I'm in no way against a minimap, but I don't believe your expectations or assertions of traditional convention is a valuable rationale for inclusion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Vancent - I think the best very best argument for not splitting the server is as follows:
If inter-player interactions are supposed to provide most of the thrilling, story-worthy moments in PFO, then diluting the population into multiple servers means reducing the opportunities for epic moments to happen.
Also, what has replaced mini-maps? Guild Wars 2 came out this decade, and it has one. Elder Scrolls Online will come out this decade, and I believe it has one, too. I'm not saying that PFO has to have everything that other MMOs have. I'm just responding to the idea that mini-maps are so last decade, by pointing out examples from this decade.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Okay, Being. I'll just say that until the game can replace my peripheral vision, directional hearing, sense of smell and ability to feel vibrations, I don't want to play an MMO without a mini-map.Peripheral vision: Wide-screen and third person. Covered.
Directional hearing: 3D sound and surround sound, also headphones. Covered.
Sense of smell: You really want smell-o-vision? Games don't even use smell, and mini-maps usually don't either. Not covered but not needed.
Vibrations: Rumble controllers, force feedback chairs, low bass and/or sub-woofers. Covered.
Guess you don't need mini-maps!
EDIT: You must have a really hard time reading books.
I assume you're aiming for facetious and funny rather than deliberately insulting?
I get that some people don't want to use a minimap because it interferes with their private sense of verisimilitude and immersion. That's fine as a personal choice. But I much prefer having one, as do many other players. I haven't yet seen any argument about why a game without a minimap is actually a better game, for any value of better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, Being. I'll just say that until the game can replace my peripheral vision, directional hearing, sense of smell and ability to feel vibrations, I don't want to play an MMO without a mini-map.Peripheral vision: Wide-screen and third person. Covered.
Directional hearing: 3D sound and surround sound, also headphones. Covered.
Sense of smell: You really want smell-o-vision? Games don't even use smell, and mini-maps usually don't either. Not covered but not needed.
Vibrations: Rumble controllers, force feedback chairs, low bass and/or sub-woofers. Covered.
Guess you don't need mini-maps!
EDIT: You must have a really hard time reading books.
Books aren't interactive, unless that's another this decade innovation I missed. Therefore, that's an invalid comparison.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At most, I'll agree that the presence or absence of a mini-map is a matter of taste. They suit my taste, and they apparently don't suit some of yours. What's inherently wrong with my suggestion that you can play without it, while I play with it? The argument seems to be "I don't want it, and I don't want anyone else to have what I don't want."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Vancent - I think the best very best argument for not splitting the server is as follows:
If inter-player interactions are supposed to provide most of the thrilling, story-worthy moments in PFO, then diluting the population into multiple servers means reducing the opportunities for epic moments to happen.
That seems like the worst argument to me. Being able to select a server that only contains like-minded people that want the same things out of the game as I do will only enrich my experience. Also, I'm talk about making two different servers, not 50.
Also, what has replaced mini-maps? Guild Wars 2 came out this decade, and it has one. Elder Scrolls Online will come out this decade, and I believe it has one, too. I'm not saying that PFO has to have everything that other MMOs have. I'm just responding to the idea that mini-maps are so last decade, by pointing out examples from this decade.
A) Those games all started development last decade.
B) Just because they're afraid of change doesn't mean we have to be.
C) The oft' referenced World of Warcraft came out 4 years into it's decade, and changed everything.
D) The whole point of the two kickstarter campaigns this game has already had was so that GW could get away from the corporate restrictions that those other games were under and be something different.
E) I did not enjoy those games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At most, I'll agree that the presence or absence of a mini-map is a matter of taste. They suit my taste, and they apparently don't suit some of yours. What's inherently wrong with my suggestion that you can play without it, while I play with it? The argument seems to be "I don't want it, and I don't want anyone else to have what I don't want."
Because it's not just a matter of having to look at it or whether or not I use it. The decision to include a mini-map will have effects on how the entire game is built. It represents the direction of the ideals of the entire game design. It affects not only the themes and atmosphere experienced while playing the game but the themes and atmosphere built into the game. A little change can mean a whole hell of a lot.
Besides all that, yes, I don't want other people to have it if I don't have it. I can't do anything about cheaters that hack it into their game, but the average fairly playing person shouldn't have undue advantages over either.
If turning it off is just an option, I will never turn it off, because that would put me on a playing field below the other players. I'd like everyone, on my sever at least, to be on the same playing field.
I assume you're aiming for facetious and funny rather than deliberately insulting?
Eh, a little of both. I'm rather passionate about the issue apparently (surprised me too, but there it is) and KarlBob is starting to get on my nerves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Vancent - I think the best very best argument for not splitting the server is as follows:
If inter-player interactions are supposed to provide most of the thrilling, story-worthy moments in PFO, then diluting the population into multiple servers means reducing the opportunities for epic moments to happen.
That seems like the worst argument to me. Being able to select a server that only contains like-minded people that want the same things out of the game as I do will only enrich my experience. Also, I'm talk about making two different servers, not 50.
Also, what has replaced mini-maps? Guild Wars 2 came out this decade, and it has one. Elder Scrolls Online will come out this decade, and I believe it has one, too. I'm not saying that PFO has to have everything that other MMOs have. I'm just responding to the idea that mini-maps are so last decade, by pointing out examples from this decade.A) Those games all started development last decade.
B) Just because they're afraid of change doesn't mean we have to be.
C) The oft' referenced World of Warcraft came out 4 years into it's decade, and changed everything.
D) The whole point of the two kickstarter campaigns this game has already had was so that GW could get away from the corporate restrictions that those other games were under and be something different.
E) I did not enjoy those games.
You can't keep "non-like-minded" people out, so why try? Mechanically, anyone can sign up for any server, then use a third party mini-map on an immersion server, or use out of character speech on a roleplaying server, or type insults on a polite server.
Although I like the player interaction argument, I didn't originate it. CCP (makers of EVE Online) did, and Ryan Dancey (now Goblinworks CEO) brought it with him when he left CCP and started making this game. Want to argue for multiple servers? You need to convince him, not me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Vancent, I'll admit that you've gotten on my nerves a bit, too. I don't want to see this descend into a personal argument, so I'm taking a break from this thread for a while. I'll be happy to discuss less controversial subjects with you, though, or even controversial ones, just not right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Long time lurker..
I despise the top down map that shows 50+ meters including all questgivers, enemies, allies, and lootables.
On the other hand, I have an old, cheap computer, and the investment required to have useful 3d sound and peripheral vision is not one that I want to be forced to make. (Not to say I wouldn't if it was an option)
What I want is the following:
-A sketch of the nearby "known" terrain that I can have on the screen, or not as I wish. This can be through previous exploration, or (less accurately) through purchased maps. Areas I haven't gotten information on should be vague if shown at all.
-Directional indication, made more accurate and more useful through skills, of nearby beings. Not exact position, not ally/enemy, I don't even want sentient/nonsentient. I want to be able to (IC) hear/smell/magic nearby sounds/life/etc and avoid or interact as I choose (if I spot them first). It's great that this can be done with Audio, but don't make that the only way. (semi-relevant: I love the idea of hunting treasure with detect magic, and finding the magic bow about to be fired at you from the trees)
-Something in the nature of Tracking, that would identify frequent paths, recent events, etc. If the last 10 people through this spot of woods have been horribly killed, I want the potential to notice before it's my turn. Not play-by-plays, just blood on the rocks, trodden mud, or faint magical auras.
Don't deny me this information in the name of verisimilitude, as it's all information I should be able to have.
If the best way to cover these things looks vaguely like a minimap, that's ok. If it's an omniscient minimap that shows me things I couldn't possibly sense, that's not. Cover the information with skills, and let people be as informed as they can.
Might give Druids and Ranger types a leg up on it while you're at it :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about having a minimap that toggles, with the amount of information visible (range and quality) dependent on the Perception skill? GW's latest Blog provides solid proof that they like the effects of (at least some) skills and feats to be based on percentages. High perception people see more on the map to represent peripheral vision and whatnot.
Personally, I'm for a minimap because I am not going to able to figure out where I am without one. As for a personal world map, give me Cartography and let me buy info on POIs.
PFO would definitely be more immersive to me without a minimap, but I don't want maximum immersion, I want maximum fun.
EDIT: Welcome froggalpha! Thank you for your post. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't know this topic would get so...warm...when I started it.
As it seems currently planned, travel in PFO will be more of an experience than in many games where convenience and speed are player expectations (gates, binding stones, faster and faster mounts, flying mounts, etc.). I am hoping that whether you're adventuring/exploring, searching out your next harvesting node, looking for those random dungeons, transporting goods, or just heading over to the next settlement - that getting there is part of the adventure. Within the adventure of travel are the risks of not knowing what's ahead of you and potentially getting lost. Mini-maps reduce both of those possibilities, and often the need for actual guides (other players who know the area better, thus adding to player interaction and dependence).
I do understand the convenience of mini-maps, but I would like to see some limitations to their use that will make the world a bit more realistically competitive and surprising. For instance, instead of seeing a bright red dot on a mini-map, telegraphing a node's location far before my character can perceive it's location using my camera perspective, I would rather have to become adept at looking for the node...spotting tell-tale signs of it among the other terrain features.
As for surprise and adventure, during the course of player-made story-arcs in UO, I can remember trying to find small but RP significant locations on player made maps by comparing them to the visible geography. It certainly put you more in the role of a treasure seeker to have to piece together the correct location rather than have it be a blinking neon point on a mini-map.
I think what I would like to have is a blank world map at the beginning, that shows only my starting NPC settlement. As I move outward, I would want the map to become more complete by my travel, as I drop purchased maps "into" it, and as I make my own notations upon it (something like a min-paint program would be nifty). So instead of an automated, generic mini-map, I would like a growing, modifiable tool that helps me navigate through the world and allows me to personalize it for my particular use and habits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Vereor Nox: I am aware of this. Though there is a big difference between single-shard and no servers. I know what you mean though.
@Hobs the Short: That's pretty much exactly my opinion and a reflection of what I want as well.
@cartomancer: Well this is where it becomes a matter of taste, exploration, discovery, and even getting lost, is fun for me. Having my hand held and having the game think and observe for me isn't, it's boring.
As for you getting lost, yes, you probably will at first. However, directional navigational skills in both real life and videogames is a skill you can develop with time. Just like a real new adventurer, you will start off not great at it and get better with time.
You're not going to develop those skills if you're following a mini-map all the time though.
@froggalpha: Yeah, some of those things can get expensive and not everyone can afford them. There is a minimal barrier though that people playing will need a computer new enough to at least be able to run the game. In general, with exceptions, that'll mean you'll probably need to have a computer new enough to come with a wide-screen monitor; and pretty much any computer that wasn't built in the 90's or earlier should come with a sound card capable of at least rudimentary 3D sound.