Stacking crit range increases

[Petty Alchemy]

Players are often drawn towards both Keen and Improved Crit, but DMs are often way. An 18-20 weapon becomes 15-20 after the first increase, how scary would it be with a second?

My proposed solution: You can stack crit range increases but up to a maximum range of 15-20.

Thoughts?

Addendum: Would it be fair that increases that would take you past 15-20 instead add +1 to the crit multiplier?

[The Boz]

I like the addendum better. One multiplier at most, all others are +1 ranges, something like 14-20 (both Keen and Improved Critical) is the maximum allowed.

[Kazaan]

The Boz wrote:

I like the addendum better. One multiplier at most, all others are +1 ranges, something like 14-20 (both Keen and Improved Critical) is the maximum allowed.

So, you'd end up with the following, if I'm reading you right:

Normal / 1 extension / 2 extensions
20 / 19-20 / 18-20
19-20 / 17-20 / 16-20
18-20 / 15-20 / 14-20

As opposed to straight up stacking of both which would be:
20 / 19-20 / 18-20
19-20 / 17-20 / 15-20
18-20 / 15-20 / 12-20

Honestly, they seem pretty close already. I'd almost say it isn't worth it to make a more complicated rule of determining which effect applies in full and others simply give +1 to the range. Just let them stack straight because all that extra crit range is going to start bumping against AC misses soon enough and you can't crit if you don't hit their AC (remember, only nat-20 auto-hits).

[The Boz]

Yes, you are reading me right.
How do you figure "pretty close" with a difference of 1 and example 2 and 2 at example 3? These aren't small differences.

[Kazaan]

Well, lets consider a weapon that nets 1d8+5 damage. Going against 12 AC with +5 to hit, we get the following:

16-20/x2 crit, 17.5% chance to crit; average damage per attempted hit: 7.44

15-20/x crit, 21.0% chance to crit; average damage per attempted hit: 7.60
20% more likely to crit

-----------------

14-20/x2 crit, 22.75% chance to crit; average damage per attempted hit: 7.67

12-20/x2 crit, 31.5% chance to crit; average damage per attempted hit: 8.07
38% more likely to crit

-----------------
For the difference on a base 19-20 crit chance between the two methods, the stack the ranges method beats out the +1 range per additional effect by only 20% in terms of how much more often you'll trigger an "on-crit" affect. Average damage difference is negligible. Even for the base 18-20, you're just shy of 40% more likely with my method of getting a crit-proc'ed effect on any given hit and damage difference is still close to negligible.

[Majuba]

12-20 crit range was too big in 3.0. (I know, I experienced it as DM) In Pathfinder, with all the crit-based effects and feats, it would be simply ludicrously powerful.

[Da'ath]

Majuba wrote:

12-20 crit range was too big in 3.0. (I know, I experienced it as DM) In Pathfinder, with all the crit-based effects and feats, it would be simply ludicrously powerful.

I actually didn't have a problem with 12-20 (as a GM) until they introduced the epic rules which made your target save or die on crit.

[BiosTheo]

12-20 Crit range is ridiculously potent. Put it on a Magus... I mean seriously.

Also in 3.5 there was a class specifically built around the idea of expanded crit ranges. Weapon Master anyone? I specifically remember building a Dev Crit TWF Ranger/Weapon Master that most every time he hit he crit. and when he crit he crit big.

[Thomas Long 175]

Crit is already the most powerful thing to consider on any given weapon.

5% increase in total damage/(multiplier-1)/threat numbers. With this a falcata will be carrying a 60% damage bump for most characters and an 80% damage bump (nearly double their total damage) for 20th level fighters. Combining that with the increase

Remember that at higher levels first attack (and 2nd with haste) is going to be auto hit for most martials. 3rd is likely to have a 70-80% chance of hitting and 4th will still likely hit in the threat range you get for 12-20. (standard a 20th fighter should be carrying around +40/40/35/30/25 before external buffs) Average AC will be around 42 so only the final attack will miss on a 12.

[Da'ath]

BiosTheo wrote:

12-20 Crit range is ridiculously potent. Put it on a Magus... I mean seriously.

Also in 3.5 there was a class specifically built around the idea of expanded crit ranges. Weapon Master anyone? I specifically remember building a Dev Crit TWF Ranger/Weapon Master that most every time he hit he crit. and when he crit he crit big.

I agree. I should have specified: in 3.0-3.5, pre-epic rules, pre-class bloat, I didn't have a problem with it.

[GeneticDrift]

If the goal is to bring more weapon diversity, maybe a feat, +1 enhancement or ability that can treat a weapon as an 18-20 x 2 or its opposite 20x4. Melee only I think, bows are already amazing.

[Can'tFindthePath]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Players are often drawn towards both Keen and Improved Crit, but DMs are often way. An 18-20 weapon becomes 15-20 after the first increase, how scary would it be with a second?

My proposed solution: You can stack crit range increases but up to a maximum range of 15-20.

Thoughts?

Addendum: Would it be fair that increases that would take you past 15-20 instead add +1 to the crit multiplier?

My group recently addressed this old issue. We decided that both the feat Improved Critical, and the magic weapon special quality keen, would be balanced as flat 1 point increases to the threat range. So we let them stack.

The weapons themselves retain their respective value, and the threat range increases are now fair. Ever have a fighter want to use a spear or an axe as his main weapon? Then he MUST take Imp Crit, but gets less benefit than a falchion wielder. Not cool.

Boom, problem solved.